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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Switching from 1st/2nd position
Switching from 1st/2nd position
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Arrick
10 posts
Oct 03, 2016
7:01 AM
I'm looking for some help on when/how to switch from straight to cross harp mid-song. Maybe some theory, ideas or examples to listen to. Is there a rhythm/solo combination you prefer?

I recently watched Musselwite perform from about 10 ft away. He was switching but I didn't take notes.
Gnarly
1934 posts
Oct 03, 2016
7:17 AM
I think a more common practice is the switch from 2nd to 3rd--as for example using a C harp in G and switching to an F . . .
So over the I chord, you are playing Dorian minor, over the IV chord you are playing cross (Mixolydian).
It doesn't help you with the V chord, that would require a G harp.
Or just learn to play chromatic hardee har har

Last Edited by Gnarly on Oct 03, 2016 10:12 AM
dougharps
1293 posts
Oct 03, 2016
7:33 AM
IMHO
No rules on this. Play whatever position(s)you can competently play that support the song at that time and that best express your musical ideas. Just keep it about the music, not your ability to switch.
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Doug S.
rogonzab
994 posts
Oct 03, 2016
8:31 AM
If you are playing a song in 2nd, try this: when the song goes to the IV... play 1st!!
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Baker
438 posts
Oct 03, 2016
9:56 AM
Hi Arrick.

Can you clarify a bit on what you mean. Was he switching from 1st to 2nd on the same harp (in which case he was probably following a chord change) – From C to G on a C harp for example.

Or was he switching harps? Playing C in first position (on a C harp) and then switching to C in second position (on an F harp) for example.

rogonzab has some good advice. If you want to switch positions as the chords change you can have a lot of fun with a 12bar blues. In G the chords are:

i = G
iv = C
v = D

If you can play in the first three positions you can swap the position according to the chord you are on. (Assume you are using a C harp).

i = G: 2nd position
iv = C: 1st position
v = D: 3rd position

I've found that this approach can open up loads more ideas when improvising over a i, iv, v progression. Many of the notes are shared but just thinking about it differently can open up new doors.
Arrick
11 posts
Oct 03, 2016
12:55 PM
Oh yes. Let me clarify. When I was watching Charlie Musselwhite, it seemed like he would play one harp during the rhythm, then he would switch harps before he would solo. I think he was switching between an A harp and a D harp on a song that was in the key of A. Essentially mixing first and second position with two different harps. It could have just as easily been second and third position or first and third position. I was just sitting there with my jaw dropped open. At that time I could only play cross work, so all I walked away with was "holy shit he was switching harps in the middle of the song". I don't believe it was due to a key change. I mentioned it to a guy in the parking lot after the show and he said "oh yeah. I'm also a two harp player." He said he switches harps mid song frequently.

Last Edited by Arrick on Oct 03, 2016 12:59 PM
STME58
1847 posts
Oct 03, 2016
1:10 PM
I am glad BAker asked and I am glad you clarified that. I thought I understood what position meant and the way I was reading some of the comments here did not fit with my understanding. I understand that position is the relationship of the key of the harp to the key of the song, and that the only way you can change position is if the song modulates or you change harps. If the song merely moves to a new chord but does not modulate, and you don't change harps, you are still in the same position. Now that I reread the previous posts, it seems they are talking about switching harps to switch position.
hvyj
3143 posts
Oct 03, 2016
1:17 PM
Switching harps does not necessarily mean you are switching positions. For example, SO WHAT (the Miles Davis tune) modulates from D Dorian to Eb Dorian and back. So you start with a C harp in third position switch to a Db harp in third position and then back to C harp.

For RIDERS ON THE STORM I'll use a D harp in third position on the I chord and a G harp in third position over the IV chord so I can play the Dorian scale/mode of the root note of each of those chords.

It all depends on what you are trying to do and the strategy you employ for doing it. For example, on a tune with major 7th chords, instead of using first position, I will sometimes stay in second position and work off of the major pentatonic scale which has no 7th, and often sounds pretty good so long as I avoid the 7b while playing that type of tune.

So, there's no fixed set of rules. It depends on what scale you want to work off of in relation to each chord OR it may mean you need to modulate to manage a key change in the tune.

Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 03, 2016 1:22 PM
slaphappy
230 posts
Oct 03, 2016
2:38 PM
Arrick,

I don't think there's a lot of special advice needed here now that you clarified he switched harps.. Probably he wanted to play comp'ing parts in 1st or 2nd, and then switched to one or the other during the solo (I do this myself sometimes)

As long as you are competent in both positions it's not a big deal at all.

One really cool piece of advice from Dennis Gruenling on this subject was to find a one-chord groove jam track and then practice against it in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd pos. Great training that..

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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!

Last Edited by slaphappy on Oct 03, 2016 2:40 PM


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