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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Price. QUALITY, Dannecker
Price. QUALITY, Dannecker
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Barry Carpenter
1 post
Sep 26, 2016
12:03 PM
People are always talking price when talking harmonicas. Harmonicas are not expensive if you are serious about playing one. I'm on Social security. I have a Seydel Saxony C Orchestra for chromatic use and several diatonics. A Dannecker Optimus C. If I only kept two, it would be my Seydel Saxony and the Dannecker. The Dannecker is my go to hands down. We'll worth the money. A jewel, a work of art, and most of all Sounds and plays like something from Heaven. If you can't pay around $400.00 for a harmonica, your not serious about playing one. I've owned Martin D28's and play only good enough for a TV bought one but I know quality. Get what you think you will grow into first. If you're just fooling around with a harmonica, it doesn't matter. When people start talking about pricing, I know right away they don't know what they're talking about. How much do you spend taking your loved one out for dinner. Eat at McDonald's and get a Dannecker. Otherwise, the best cheap harmonica is a Hohner Crossovers.
1847
3714 posts
Sep 26, 2016
12:59 PM
When people start talking about pricing, I know right away they don't know what they're talking about.


seems to me, you are the one discussing price. so lets hear what you got eh?

i bet you are a monster blues harmonica player, where can we get your magnificent recordings?

Last Edited by 1847 on Sep 26, 2016 1:01 PM
Ian
373 posts
Sep 26, 2016
1:41 PM
Hi Barry, welcome to the forum.

I couldn't disagree more.

Despite the hint of troll in the air let's look at the evidence here shall we? As far as I know....
Adam Gussow - plays stock marine bands
Jason Ricci - plays suzuki manjis
Charlie Mustlewhite - plays seydel 1847.
the list goes on....

These are world class players who basically play stock instruments ( tweaked here and there ) .
To say you need to buy the the most expensive harp available in order to get good results is clearly not true.

"if you can't pay 400 for a harmonica you are not serious about playing ".....
Come on man, Really? You are honestly saying that you need to pay 4800 bucks for a set of harps to be considered 'serious'?

Last Edited by Ian on Sep 26, 2016 1:43 PM
SleepingCat
34 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:07 PM
Ok, I'll bite :)

OP has a good point for the following reasons:
They say it takes "10,000" hours to master a skill.
They also say that time is money.

Therefore, a *lot* of time equals a *lot* of money.

If a lot of money has been spent on a harmonica, it follows that a lot of time has spent on that harmonica.

Thus, if you can spend an amount of money that is equivalent to 10,000 hours, you have mastered the harmonica!

I am going to stop my diligent studying posthaste.
slaphappy
221 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:41 PM
The crossover is not a "cheap" harmonica.

I'm going to reverse troll and say if you can't get a good tone out of $10 harp then you probably aren't a serious player and should just donate all of your expensive harps to Slaphappy.

;)

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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
JustFuya
963 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:50 PM
I'm just happy that someone is happy!
Reever Sorio
2 posts
Sep 26, 2016
3:00 PM
I have a Dannecker diatonic I got in a trade, beautiful instrument, and it plays great. However, at $400 it very well should. I also have Marine Bands that I set up for myself, I play the MBs near exclusively.
hvyj
3127 posts
Sep 26, 2016
3:43 PM
If you are a diatonic player and carry less than a full set of 12 or 13 harps, some musicians would not regard you as being serious. And if you are really serious you would also carry spares of the 7 or 8 most used keys. But to an extent this depends on the demands of the music you play and whether you regularly use positions above third.

You can get very high quality harps for a lot less than $400 each. Not suggesting that Dannecker harps are not worth it, but my Spiers harps are certainly adequate for the 35-40 or so gigs I play a year. And I have a full set of very serviceable spares Mike Fugazzi made for me. Anyway, I consider my "instrument" to be a full set of 12 or 13 harps.

That being so, to my mind, the relevant comparison is how much does a high quality sax, keyboard or guitar cost in relation to a full set of quality harps? Personally, I play multiple positions so I don't fool around with minor tuned harps or other special non Richter tunings. But from my perspective, in relation to the cost of other high quality instruments the price of a full set of custom harps is not excessive. Those who have very strong technique may not use customs, but they certainly are helpful to me in meeting the demands of the music I play and the musicians I perform with. But whatever I'm playing, I need a full set to do what I need to get done.

I don't consider the Hohner Crossover @ about $80 to be a cheap harp, but the combs are not consistently flat. The Seydel Noble @ about $110 is pretty nice. Neither are as precise as good customs but if a player has strong enough technique that may not matter to them. But it makes s difference for me.

Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 26, 2016 7:02 PM
DanP
306 posts
Sep 26, 2016
4:22 PM
Lot's of great players use/used the stock Hohner 1896 Marine Band. Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Big Walter Horton, Paul Butterfield, and Sonny Terry to name just a few. I would say those guys were serious players. I'm not knocking Dannecker harmonicas, I'm sure they are fine harmonicas. I don't own one and at that price I probably never will.
Bilzharp
133 posts
Sep 27, 2016
6:25 AM
I kind of liked the Martin guitar comparison. It starts to break down though when you realize that better than 60% of the great and memorable flat-picking guitar pieces were played on a Martin. I'd guess that 99.99% of the great and memorable harmonica pieces were NOT played on a Dannecker.
Still, I'd like to try one someday and I'm sure you had fun stirring things up.
nacoran
9240 posts
Sep 27, 2016
7:28 AM
Welcome to the forum Barry.

I understand custom harps are things of beauty, but plenty of pros play MBs and Sp20s and can get nearly a full set of harps for that price (in fact, if you buy it as a set, I think you can).

That's not knocking players who shell out for more, and certainly those of us who don't, well we may occasionally spend some time gapping our harps ourselves. There are also customizers who can sell you a harp for less than that who can sell you amazing harps. You can get a Spiers, who many people consider the gold standard, Stage III for $300. A top of the line Zajac will run just a little less. You can get a brass combed MB from Blue Moon for $130. Chris Reynolds also does great work.

But lots of pros play $40 harps that they spend a few minutes tweaking themselves. It's nice to have nice things, and it's nice to be able to afford nice things, but you can absolutely be serious with out of the box harps.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Kingley
4050 posts
Sep 27, 2016
10:46 AM
Considering that pretty much every one of the classic blues recordings were recorded using stock Hohner Marine Band harmonicas and that pretty much every great chromatic piece of any genre was recorded using a Hohner Chromonica of some description. To imply that a person has to spend hundreds of dollars on a custom instrument to be 'serious' about their music is not only pompous and arrogant, but it's also completely and utterly misguided thinking.
Even today most pros use stock harmonicas (with Hohners of some description being the lions share). Nobody in their right mind could claim that those pro players aren't 'serious' about their music.

Last Edited by Kingley on Sep 27, 2016 10:47 AM
hvyj
3132 posts
Sep 27, 2016
11:30 AM
Not every player wants to sound like an old blues recording. I heard an interview with Steve Guyger about how to learn to play harmonica and he said something like concentrate on the older styles.

Why? There's a lot of music that plays well on positions above third and that has more than 3 chords. No objection to blues, but the harmonica is capable of more than just that. Saying that we should limit ourselves to what was available when the old blues masters were recorded is sort of like saying if the good Lord wanted us to fly he would have given us wings.

And, personally, I am not wild about Hohners. In general, I prefer Suzukis, and I recently got some Seydel Nobles that IMHO, are objectively better instruments OOB than ANY OOB Hohner. At one time Hohner was pretty much the only game in town. But the market has evolved. It depends on what you prefer and what you want to sound like. It also depends on durability. Suzukis last longer than Hohners. Don't have enough experience with Seydels to know how durable they are. But good customs are significantly more durable than a typical OOB harp.

These days Hohner is making some nice harps, but there are other very good alternatives out there.

Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 27, 2016 12:05 PM
Kingley
4052 posts
Sep 27, 2016
11:50 AM
hvyj, nobody said people should limit themselves to what was available when those old recordings were made. Nor did anyone imply that everyone wants to play blues. So quite where you got that assumption is beyond me. The point that myself and others have made is that no one needs' to have an expensive custom made instrument to sound good or to be serious about their music. Pretty much every pre 1990's recordings regardless of genre, were made using stock harmonicas. The reason I referenced the classic blues recordings is because they are probably the largest recorded example of cheap stock instruments being used to create good 'serious' music. Those same instruments have of course between used and recorded in multiple genres over the decades.
As for Steve Guyger, well obviously he'd point a person wanting to learn harmonica towards the older styles. Because A: that's how he learnt to hone his craft. B: Anyone wanting to learn harmonica and listening to Steve Guyger would in all likelihood be a blues fan and be more interested in learning that genre. That doesn't mean that there aren't other genres of interest to the instrument out there. It just means he chose to focus his music in a particular genre. As I've no doubt even he would point out if asked.
hvyj
3133 posts
Sep 27, 2016
12:16 PM
Every war prior to the 20th century was fought without airplanes.
Sundancer
30 posts
Sep 27, 2016
12:40 PM
This is a pretty funny, albeit snarky thread. There must have been something in the air due to the Preparation H vs Orange Anus debate. Anyway, who cares if this cat paid $400 for a harmonica? Let the old bugger enjoy his overpriced pommy harp. Who's it hurt? And saying that all classic music was performed on old harps is about as enlightening as saying Eddie Merckx rode on crap bikes with low tech pedals & gears when he won all those races. No modern TdF rider would use a bike like that and they don't get slagged off for it - shame about the PEDs though.

Reminds me of Pat Garret & Billy the Kid:

Pat - times is changing Billy.
Billy- times may be changing Pat, but I ain't.

Play what ya want and have fun doing so.

Last Edited by Sundancer on Sep 27, 2016 7:56 PM
DanP
307 posts
Sep 27, 2016
2:49 PM
At the risk of sounding snarky, do you have to spend $150,000 for a Maserati to be a serious driver? If you're a serious harmonica player, you want something better than a $2 plastic harmonica but you don't have to spend $400. If you are a serious driver, you want something better than a Yugo but it doesn't have to be a Maserati. Nobody said people can't spend $400 for a harmonica if they want to.

Last Edited by DanP on Sep 27, 2016 5:19 PM
Mahcks
77 posts
Sep 27, 2016
4:34 PM
I am not a serious musician. I'm goofy as hell. I still have a few harps that run close to $400, but they have not transformed my goofiness into seriousness.
STME58
1841 posts
Sep 27, 2016
5:03 PM
I think most musicians end up with instruments in the mid range of prices, the range does seem to be logarithmic. As the price goes up you have to pay a lot more for less improvement. Most serious trombonists I know have horns that can be had for $1500-$2500, even though a top quality Shires or Bach is around $6000, few sax players use a $10000 Yanagisawa, and no one says they are not serious because their horn only cost $2500. If you have a $120 Etude Trombone or a $250 Etude sax, folks might think you are not serious. Just like they would if you played a $5 Blues Band harp. However, are really good player could demonstrate their seriousness on any of these cheap instruments by making them sound great.

I think paying $45 to $70 for a Special 20 or Crossover puts one in about the range of the $1000 trombone or the $2500 alto sax. Not the best there is, but certainly in "serious" territory.

Mind you, I would not turn down the opportunity to own a Bach or a Shires trombone if my finances were at the point I could afford it, but I can make pretty good music on my Conn Constellation, and it is a good enough horn that I am not accused of not being serious (at least not because of the quality of my horn :-) ).

Last Edited by STME58 on Sep 27, 2016 5:05 PM
Bugsy
73 posts
Sep 27, 2016
7:43 PM
Here I was thinking that a "serious" harp was around $80. How silly of me.
Ian
374 posts
Sep 28, 2016
1:13 AM
I wonder if Barry is going to appear again to support his point and prove that he's not a Barry shaped troll?
BronzeWailer
1920 posts
Sep 28, 2016
2:14 AM
If you don't wear a $2000 suit, don't even bother going to the office.

BronzeWailer's YouTube
kudzurunner
6052 posts
Sep 28, 2016
5:09 AM
When I first got this website underway, Anthony Dannecker sent me one of his harmonicas--hoping, I imagine, for whatever folks (quite reasonably) hope for in such circumstances: a kind word, an endorsement, etc.. I was flattered. It was a beautiful looking instrument and felt good in my hands, but I just didn't enjoy playing it. The coverplates were squarer to my lips than is my preference--not as anglged/curved as the Marine Bands I've been playing for decades--and the sound wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I know that Christelle plays and love them. She gets a fantastic sound out of them. But they didn't work for the kind of blues that I played--new or old blues.

I'd drop $130-150 for one of Joe Spiers's custom harps in a heartbeat. So I'm not against the idea of spending money for a top-shelf harp. But it's got to be the right harp. And that's a personal choice. There's no universal "best" harp, whether you're talking about beginners or advanced players. Serious players, of all levels, play a range of different harps.

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 28, 2016 5:11 AM
Martin
1072 posts
Sep 28, 2016
5:37 AM
Barry: If I remember correctly I put up a track a while ago where I played four and five dollar harps (or thereabouts) and asked people to pick them out compared to an ordinary LO. If you scroll backwards a bit you can check it out and see how you fare.
Thats is, given the, in itself rather interesting, ontological presumtion that you exist.
Goldbrick
1619 posts
Sep 28, 2016
7:58 AM
'There's a lot of music that plays well on positions above third and that has more than 3 chords. No objection to blues, but the harmonica is capable of more than just that'

Except this is a blues board and thats why most of us are here .And if you enjoy playing other types of music on harp get a chromatic and be done with it

I am a guitar dealer and am very familiar with Martins etc.
If you buy a good martin it will only go up in value-- not many people are interested in used contemporary harps

A D-28 is a tool and an investment
An expensive harp is a tool-hopefully the right one for the owner as it will not hold or increase in value
florida-trader
1006 posts
Sep 28, 2016
9:08 AM
Interesting thread. Whereas some threads start of good and turn ugly, this one has started off a little jibberishy (is that a word?) and has morphed into a good conversation.

Here’s my take on the price of harmonicas. In a nutshell harmonicas have evolved from being disposable to becoming too dang expensive to just throw away. As recently as 8-10 years ago you could get a Marine Band for about $20. If you blew it out, what could you do with it? The information we take for granted today about how to repair or customize harps only existed in the minds of a handful of people. Today, there are 100’s, if not 1000’s of videos on YouTube that teach us how to customize, repair and maintain our harps. A few of them even teach us how to play them, but I digress. In addition, it was economically infeasible for anyone to set up a business fixing broken harps. The amount of money you can charge to repair anything always competes against the cost to buy a new one. So if a new Marine Band costs $20, how much can you charge to make fixing it a more attractive option? $10.00 maybe? You can’t make money charging $10 so nobody did it. Fast forward to today and a good harp – Marine Band, Special 20, Manji, Seydel Session Steel or 1847 and others – costs $40 - $100. Now if you offer a service to repair blown out harps you can charge $15-20 a harp and it is a more attractive alternative to spending $40 - $100 on a new harp. And the guys doing the work have a better change to actually make a profit – especially if he can get 5 or 10 harps to repair which is often the way it happens. I don’t do a lot of repair work. I refer all that business to Mike Peace in Tulsa, OK. Mark Prados in Hawaii used to offer the same service. I know that Harvey will fix your harps for you if ask real nice. The point is that the mentality has changed. If you knew that you were only going to get 3 to 6 months out of a harp before it blew out, with no option to have it repaired, you would be inclined to buy the best cheap harps you could find. On the other hand, if you knew that any good harp you buy today, properly cared for, can last for several years, you can justify investing a little more money in a high quality harp. And that high quality can come in the form of the retail price of a stock harp or the extra money that you would pay for a custom comb or from customization. The way I figure it, speaking with my own customers in mind, between the cost of the harp, the cost of a custom comb and the time it takes to set the harp up (whether that time is your time or you pay someone else to do it), you easily have $150+ invested in each harp. Is it worth the extra money? It is up to each individual to make that decision for himself. There is no question that the harps are easier to play. Certainly there are plenty of guys who play wonderful music on stock harps. No argument there. And if that’s you and that’s your MO, who’s to say that you are wrong? Not me.

My point is simply that the increased cost of harps has created opportunities for small businesses to enter the market and offer services that did not exist before. You can do the math. If harps are disposable and have short lives before they blow out or go flat and need to be replaced, what is the cost? Compare that to buying a harp once, spending a little here and there on maintenance and having it last 5 – 10 years? Which one costs less?

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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 28, 2016 9:52 AM
mlefree
768 posts
Sep 28, 2016
9:42 AM
I don't know where the $400 came from. Dannecker customs seem to range from $250 to $950.

IMO, there is no diatonic harmonica on earth worth $950, unless that's the value of its gold plating. $150, yes. $950 not in a million years. I can't imagine spending $250 either, for that matter. $250 will buy a lot, even in this day and age.

"The world’s most expensive production diatonic harmonica." That's how Antony Dannecker the headline reads on his "Centurion Gold" web page.

Dannecker Centurion Gold

One wonders why that outweighs what's inside. As far as I am concerned, this is clearly for the rich person who wants to check "The world’s most expensive production diatonic harmonica" off his/her list of "Worlds most expensive" items. There is no other reason someone would buy a gold-plated harmonica. Well, I suppose a less well-heeled player might buy one to support some sort of an illusion.

Other than those two kinds of motivations, why not go for his budget $250 model? Then by extension, one must wonder what motivates someone to buy a $250 harp when they could buy a gold standard like a Spiers or Sleigh instead of one merely plated with gold.

Michelle

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Gnarly
1920 posts
Sep 28, 2016
9:44 AM
http://www.redf.am/
This could be our guy.
I improve new harps and refurbish broken harmonicas, too.
I recommend everyone get comfy with working on their own harps, but I have sent harps to Mike Peace and Joe Spiers too. They both do good work.
1847
3718 posts
Sep 28, 2016
10:02 AM
nice job gnarly...

i take back my earlier comments, very nice recording if you ask me. still waiting to hear the harp part, perhaps a 900.00 dollar dannecker is in the cards, i do need a new Ab.

very cool barry.
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nacoran
9243 posts
Sep 28, 2016
10:45 AM
Michelle, specifically on the idea of gold, I think some people were interested in it because it's non-reactive. Some older harps were plated over nickel and people were looking for something that wouldn't cause allergies and wouldn't rust. Today, you can look on the internet and look up the properties of all sorts of metals and sort through, but gold plating, at least with a lower carrot alloy that wouldn't be so soft isn't the craziest idea.

That said, when I was a kid I saw a little sailboat, about the size of a matchbox car. My dad used to have a couple sailboats. This was plated in gold and I bought it for him- for $5. Gold plating, depending on the thickness, is not prohibitively expensive. Gold leaf (which is just sort of stuck on, not chemically attached, is even cheaper). A lump of gold the size of a matchbox can leaf an area the size of a tennis court.

Of course, doing plating right is an art. There used to be a guy who did it for harps. I remember a big blow out
on the forum when they started flaking. Dannecker is higher end though.

A little googling suggests that for small items it's the labor cost, not the gold cost that is the issue. (That's for jewelry sized things, it might start to factor a little bit for bigger things like a set of covers and a comb.) Labor costs are $100-$150 per lot.

But guys, lets not be too hard on Barry. It's his first post. It sounds like he's got a little case of Gear Acquisition Syndrome. That's okay. The important thing to remember with G.A.S. is to balance your impulse to buy things against your budget. Your goal should be a working set of harmonicas and to be able to afford to eat and keep a roof over your head and not get kicked out of your house by your spouse when they see the bill. I think one of the good things this forum does is expose you to the nice things you can buy, rate them, and give you an idea of what you need vs. what you might want if you've got some spare change. Harps are very subject to personal taste. We've got different customizers, brands, models, and aftermarket upgrades. We've got videos to show you how to fix things that are broken and people who can do it for you.

Barry, I think the reason people took a little exception is you sounded a bit like an ad, especially for a first post. That's okay. I hope we haven't scared you off. Enjoy your Dannecker. I'm on a fixed budget too. $400 is too steep for me for one harp, but there are guys who can afford that and from what I hear Dannecker makes good harps. Back when I first ran into them I don't think he was doing reed work on them, they were just objects of art, but I understand that has changed.



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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
STME58
1842 posts
Sep 28, 2016
11:31 AM
Nate, I was thinking along the same lines when I saw Michelle's comments on gold. WHen the term "gold plated" is taken to mean expensive, purely decorative and nonfunctional, I agree with her post. Taking it literally, there are functional reasons for gold plating. Brass instrument mouthpieces are frequently gold plated (The one that came with my Conn Connstellation Trombone is). The difference is subtle, but I prefer the gold to the silver finish in the way it feels and slides on the lips. To be sure it is not a placebo effect, perhaps I should buy two new Shilke mouthpieces, identical except for plating (silver $115, gold $215) and have someone help me do a double blind test to see if I really can tell the difference. :-)

Suzuki has ar least one instrument with a gold plated mouthpiece (Cover Plates). At $135 it is not a huge premium over the standard Promaster Valved at $90.
Goldbrick
1620 posts
Sep 28, 2016
11:36 AM
Nobody in that band looks old enuff to be on Social Security
hvyj
3135 posts
Sep 28, 2016
11:54 AM
@Goldbrick: Well, HESITATION BLUES ( the Rev. Gary Davis/Hot Tuna tune) has more than 3 chords, lays out extremely well in 5th position and doesn't sound very good on chromatic. Or does being a member of a blues forum restrict us to blues with 3 chords playable in 1st, 2d or 3rd positions?

I don't get it. AUTUMN LEAVES, the jazz tune, is playable in 5th position on a diatonic which, IMHO, sounds more soulful than playing it on a chrom. Or shouldn't I play that because it's not purely a blues?

Ok then, what about AFRO BLUE or EQUINOX? Both are minor key blues playable in fourth position, and both of which I think have fewer chords than HESITATION BLUES, So are those tunes acceptable for a blues forum? Maybe AFRO BLUE might be ok because it is also playable in third position? Or is it only ok if I actually play it in third?

Same question for the minor key blues, CHITLINS CON CARNE. Do I have to play the Jr. Wells version in third to be a contributing member of the forum, or is it acceptable to play the Kenny Burrell version using fifth?

Maybe I need to read the Forum Creed more carefully. Until I do, I better not talk about PURPLE RAIN, which is playable in second using a major pentatonic scale, but it has four chords and isn't really a blues, but the minor 7th and minor 3rd blue notes in the closing riff uses part of the blues scale.

Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 28, 2016 12:23 PM
Goldbrick
1621 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:22 PM
@hvvy

I would call Gary Davis stuff ragtime and not blues
Blues in the title does not mean generally what we construe as 8 or 12 bar 3 7th chords type blues structure
I play rags all the time on guitar and it is not " bluesy" sounding at all

Afro Blue aint blues at all its structured closer to a montuno




Millions of jazz tunes have blues in the title and really arent blues.


You can bring your 20 harps and call it blues if you want and rag the gussers but to most - its not blues you are describing -however you are certainly free to play it and call it anything you want

It just seems to me you get kinda more musical than thou- but maybe thats just the South Philly in me and I apologize for that if it is not your intent
hvyj
3136 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:35 PM
Well, there's some validity to your characterization of my approach. It's my belief that harmonica players in general would do better across the board if they paid greater attention to the musicality stuff and it certainly helped me. That, however, is (IMHO, unfortunately) more the exception than the rule.

Yeah, HESITATION BLUES is more of a rag, and I'D RATHER GO BLIND which many people consider a blues is R&B. But I don't agree that 12 bar I, IV, V structure is the definitional paragon of blues. IMHO, that's pretty limiting.
Gnarly
1922 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:46 PM
"Except this is a blues board and thats why most of us are here .And if you enjoy playing other types of music on harp get a chromatic and be done with it"

Yes, Goldbrick, that is why I tread lightly here.

Differently tuned diatonics also work well with music other than blues.

Richter is probably the best tuning for blues--but a Richter tuned chrom can be useful for the blues too--not that I use one!
Gnarly
1923 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:49 PM
I do have one sticking point--it's the minor third over the dominant chord.
So using a C harp in G, bar 9 goes to D7 and the unaltered draw 5 is an F--not a chord note, and not what I consider musical.
But that has nothing to do with this thread . . .
Goldbrick
1622 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:54 PM
Guys- I aint discounting your approach--If it works for you ,cool.
I dig chromatic on minor blues where I can drop in melody notes.
Its another approach-not a new "right" way

My personal musical pet peeve is blind reliance on the minor pentatonic-it can be great or it can be just lazy
When I teach guitar I teach major scale soloing =removing notes that dont work rather than starting with the blind 5 as i call it

Again stick around music long enuff and stuff will develop-its called YOUR own style
Moon Cat
595 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:58 PM
Narconon (Nate): What a great, sensitive, calm, reasonable and nurturing post Sir!
Jason
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Gnarly
1924 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:59 PM
He mentioned the plating issue--Mooncat, did you ever get satisfaction on that?
1847
3719 posts
Sep 28, 2016
1:05 PM
gnarly, that is something that needs to be discussed, it is by far the most important topic and we never talk about it.
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hvyj
3138 posts
Sep 28, 2016
1:07 PM
@Gnarly: I would say the minor third played against the major third of the dominant chord is a characteristic of the BLUES idiom.
slaphappy
226 posts
Sep 28, 2016
2:10 PM
yeah but specifically over the 5 chord in 2nd position, the 5 draw (F, which is the #9 of the D7 chord) isn't really a great note to hang on. But it's everywhere in traditional blues but usually as part of a melodic line rather than a "landing note" and that's including the vocal melodies so I think you kind of have to get over it a bit and accept that it's just part of the vernacular. That was my conclusion anyway, embracing tasteful and idiomatic dissonance!






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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!

Last Edited by slaphappy on Sep 28, 2016 2:12 PM
hvyj
3139 posts
Sep 28, 2016
2:46 PM
Why are you calling it the #9 if it's not being played in the upper register as an extension tone? Just asking...I mean, in the sense you are using it, the minor third of any chord is a #9. Am I missing something?
slaphappy
227 posts
Sep 28, 2016
3:23 PM
well, I think of it such that the minor 3rd is not a chord tone in a dominant 7th and with the 5 draw you can't bend up into blue 3rd or major 3rd territory at all without OB'ing, so it's a hard #9 to me. Also if you arpeggiate the V chord from 1-draw root then it does lay out that way on the harp (1, 3, 5, 7, #9)

Last Edited by slaphappy on Sep 28, 2016 3:29 PM
hvyj
3140 posts
Sep 28, 2016
3:57 PM
Maybe I'm being dense, but if you arpeggiate the available notes for the dominant chord (D7) in the key of G in the middle register on a C harp in 2d position it would be draw4 draw5 draw6 blow7 or D F A C which is 1 3b 5 7b. You have to go up to draw9 to get the #9 extension tone. So what you really have is a Dm7 chord.

This is one example of why it is that a player can musically fit diatonic harmonica to a wider range of material if you don't play chords.

FWIW, I've always considered the characterization of the 3b as a 9# in a blues context as an attempt to force fit African blues tonality into the paradigm of Western harmony. FWIW. IMHO that characterization is artificial.

Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 28, 2016 4:10 PM
Gnarly
1925 posts
Sep 28, 2016
4:03 PM
hoo boy, thread wandering . . . and it's my fault (among others).

You CAN arpeggiate the V7/#9 (D7/#9) in cross on a C--but you have to draw bend to get the major third on hole 2 and the fifth on hole 3--and blow hole 4 to get the b7--and then end with the F, the good old minor third of D.

But whatever.
slaphappy
229 posts
Sep 28, 2016
4:07 PM
hvyj I think that's "correct for harmonica" in the middle register even though technically the b3rd isn't a chord tone. You gotta work with what's there.

I tend to think of building arpeggios from the lowest root note available so for me, the middle register can be considered "extensions" but in the end who cares whether you call it a b3rd or a #9 long as you understand it..

If I really want the major 3rd available for V chord I tend to go to 1st position.

fun chat!

gnarly, that's exactly it.
1, 2',3",4+,5 = (1,3,5,7,#9)






----------
4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!

Last Edited by slaphappy on Sep 28, 2016 4:08 PM
hvyj
3141 posts
Sep 28, 2016
4:17 PM
Yeah. The problem is that for the overwhelming most part one cannot "build" chords on the harmonica--you are stuck with what's there. So there are significant musical limitations on what can be done with the choo-choo train approach.
Gnarly
1926 posts
Sep 28, 2016
4:31 PM
"one cannot "build" chords"

Howard does it--I can't!


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