hvyj
3122 posts
Sep 26, 2016
8:49 AM
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A friend of mine who plays guitar and sings fronts a smokin' hot blues and R&B band that just finished a Canadian tour with a performance at the House of Blues in Chicago.
Anyway, I was asking him about how the tour went, and he was telling me that at every venue he was inundated with harmonica players telling him how great they were and wanting to sit in. Finally one harp player was so persistent that they called him up to play. The bandleader called a tune saying it was in D. The ostensibly great harp player complained that he couldn't play in D because he only had one harp with him. Disgusted, the bandleader said, over the mic, Get off the stage, you don't belong here.
Ya gotta wonder what a guy like that thinks about trying to sit in with a musically strong road act. Go figure....
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slaphappy
222 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:48 PM
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what is "Gussing"?
a lot of harp players are total douches. I just deal with it and don't let it drag me down. The guys who can really play more than make up for all the clowns..
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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hvyj
3126 posts
Sep 26, 2016
2:52 PM
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It gets better: Just got off the phone with my friend who had the Canadian tour and House of Blues gig. I couldn't help but ask him what that harp player could possibly have been thinking about asking to sit in with only one harp. He said after he got kicked off the stage he got pissed off and kept coming up to the bass player carrying on about how he could have rocked the house if they just would have let him play. And this is a band that rocks the house so strongly and consistently well that musicians who do get invited to sit in with them sometimes have difficulty keeping up. I guess the nice thing about living in an alternative universe is that you can put yourself at the center of it.
Ya know, if a musician who wants to sit in on a weekend gig keeps talking about how great he is, it sorta makes you wonder why he isn't somewhere else playing a gig of his own if he's really that good.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 26, 2016 7:58 PM
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snowman
219 posts
Sep 26, 2016
7:10 PM
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i don't know why harp players more than guitar players, bass players etc--- become delusional about their ability-maybe they hear a famous player do a four draw bend an assume that because they can do it ,they should be famous as well---
it makes it hard to even ask to sit in---If I do ask I tell them ‘no is an acceptable answer’ ‘I understand—They put in the time, to get good enough to get the job—they paid their dues to get there—and then some knuckleheads want their moment in the sun-w/out paying their dues---AND THEN HAVE THE NERVE TO GET ANGRY---
One time I was playing in a bar---I saw a guy with a super fancy harp case—I could tell him and his buddy were saying ’ yr better than him’- So I asked him up -on a good 145 harp song—he was EXTREMELY MEDIOCRE AND HAD AN ATTITUDE—
What scares me is where do I fit in with delusional thing—I try to objective and realistic---
THE MAIN THING IS SITTING IN WITH A BAND IS A LUXURY---- IT IS NOT MANDATORY AT ALL---IF YOU OR I ARE LUCKY ENOUGH, WHEN THE MOOD STRIKES AND THEY SAY YES—BE RESPECTFUL AND THANKFUL---TO GET ANGRY WHEN THEY SAY NO IS REALLY RUDE—
PAY YR DUES –GET YR OWN BAND
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Bugsy
72 posts
Sep 26, 2016
11:02 PM
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I sat in with someone before. I had trouble keeping up since I had a B harp on me, and all her songs that I sat in on that were in F# weren't typical i-iv-v blues that I live on. That, and I rarely play with anything else other than my own foot, so I am really underdeveloped in that area.
I think I did alright, though, since she gave me her business card and said I should contact her.
But it is rough. Unless it is a song that you know in the style that you know, you would have to try to invent something on the spot that compliments the song, which is not something mediocre players are known for.
You can be great at harmonica, but not good at music.
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slaphappy
223 posts
Sep 27, 2016
12:06 AM
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Bugsy I don't think you can be really great at any musical instrument without being good at music..
But I think maybe you mean "great at harmonica blues" without being great at other genres? which I think is fair. It's pretty hard to play harp over a lot of Beatles or Barry Manilo songs for example haha.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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SuperBee
4143 posts
Sep 27, 2016
4:15 AM
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I dunno why people want to sit in. It happens a lot and I used to see it and think it was normal. I guess it fed the idea that you can 'just play harmonica' if you know what to do. It always bugged me that I couldn't work it out.
I was playing a gig, fronting the band and this guy down below the stage is making some gesture to me I couldn't work out. he was miming playing harp. I'm kind of obtuse; I thought he was encouraging me to play more. Turned out he wanted me to throw him the harp and invite him up to play. Why the heck would I do that? He told me he taught some guy to play. Apparently I was supposed to recognise the name but along with obtuseness I'm also pig-ignorant about legendary Australian festival circuit bands. I don't go to festivals.
But why would I invite an unknown drunk up to play my harps on a gig i'm fronting as a harp player vocalist with my band? Why would someone think I'd be open to that idea?
Good gig though. $500 for a single set. Playing it again in March, maybe I'll take a spare set of harps for my be-dreadlocked aspirant harpist. I might be able to handle now.
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Honkin On Bobo
1385 posts
Sep 27, 2016
4:55 AM
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If i were a band leader my policy would be absolutely no sit-ins unless the player was known to us. If said person was vouched for by a member of the band and he turned out to be incompetent or an asshole, that band member would have a lot to answer for. I'd have all members agree to that upfront. If a vouched for asshole happened more than once, then the policy goes to no sit-ins period/no exceptions.
I understand why people want to sit in, playing in a band in front of an audience is an awesome rush. But only a drunk or jerk gets pissed off if they ask and the band says no. I think harp players ask more often because the instrument is so portable that the chance of that randomness is greater. You can have the instrument with you all the time.
Gussing: when a harp player in the crowd or at stage left/right starts playing along with the band even though they haven't been asked to (at least that's my understanding of it). And it's super obnoxious for both the band AND audience.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Sep 27, 2016 5:01 AM
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didjcripey
1063 posts
Sep 27, 2016
5:11 AM
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Yeah, I don't even like to sit in when I've been asked to (as often happens after I play with our band). Especially when you've got no idea what they're going to play. If they think I'm a great harp player, I like to quit while I'm ahead.
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Lucky Lester
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Martin
1071 posts
Sep 27, 2016
6:40 AM
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The general solution to this is that harmonica players stop carrying their harps around. There is a notion that "real" harmonica players always ought to have a harmonica ready, since they perceive themselves as a possible enhancement of any musical performance -- even if they can´t play.
You never see trombone players walking around with their instruments, urging bands to let them sit in, or just noodling around on the dance floor.
That´s because they are often the real musicians, and harmonica players are not.
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Goldbrick
1617 posts
Sep 27, 2016
7:26 AM
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I am not a fan of sitting in unless you are a friend of the band and know their material.
Sometimes too, you get band leaders who like to f with the sit ins.
There was a band a few years back that always seemed to be playing the same joints may band played
That bands leader is a dick and would ask me to play harp and then do stuff like modulate the key to show off. I only fell for that once.
He wanted to sit in on guitar at a drum gig I had- I let him do his flash intro and then switched to 5/4 time. he didnt realize it at first and took a bunch of ribbing from the folks at the bar.
Music should be fun -not a competition
If I do get a sit in -I will call a tune like-Hound Dog in E that everyone knows and can have fun with
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nacoran
9242 posts
Sep 27, 2016
7:42 AM
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Being able to play when I'm asked to sit in is something I am working on. I don't, as a rule, get nervous playing, but that's because I know the songs I'm playing. It's fairly common at open mics for the host band to invite some of the musicians who did a good job to come up for the final jam, and when they start walking over to me and ask what keys I have with me I usually get this pit in my stomach and find an excuse to not do it. It's more of an anxiety thing than a skill thing. As long as I've got a song keyed I can figure something okay out, but my brain doesn't seem to have enough memory to think 'audience, smile, play AND improvise'.
Come to think of it, it often doesn't have enough memory to think 'audience, smile, play, lyrics'.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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dougharps
1292 posts
Sep 27, 2016
8:06 AM
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I have had the pleasure of sitting in with quite a few bands, but they were local bands who knew me or knew of me, not touring bands. I was introduced to some bands by other well known local musicians who vouched for me. I DO carry a set of harps (they are smaller than a trombone), but I never pester a band.
If I know people in a band I say "Hi!" and leave it up to them to ask if they wish. I have occasionally been hired for one-off gigs after sitting in, or even ongoing side man jobs. By having established that I can play well and know when not to play, and that I will not detract from the music, I have been hired on an ongoing basis as a sideman by three different groups. I played gigs with each for at least a year, and still do on occasion.
Last fall a touring blues duo was playing a set at our Folk & Roots festival just before the late night open jam. I had introduced myself to the guitar player during a break noting that I had recently attended a workshop taught by a harp player who had played with her. I did not ask to sit in. As they were tearing down the stage at the end of the night the acoustic jam started in front of the stage. She walked up to me and said, "Why didn't you tell me you were good? We would have had you up on stage playing with us." I don't regret not asking (though it would have been fun!), because the crowd was there for that duo, not a local guy sitting in.
I view sitting in as marketing. When I sit in I play whatever they call, in whatever key.
I don't carry harps when I go to listen to jazz bands, though I can play some jazz.
A man's got to know his limitations.
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Doug S.
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slaphappy
224 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:12 AM
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ok "Gussing", thanks for the definition Bobo good to know!
I've seen guys do that and I just shake my head.. even if the jam really sucks you just don't do that. I mean go out to your car if you need to play that bad!
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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JInx
1233 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:35 AM
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Is it named after our fearless leader?
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timeistight
2052 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:47 AM
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Uh, no, it's not. Why? Does Gussow Gus?
Actually it comes from an old thread on Harp-L where someone (was it Michael Rubin?) complained about an audience member named "Gus"? I'll see if I can find it for you.
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timeistight
2053 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:49 AM
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"You can be great at harmonica, but not good at music."
I'm trying to imagine what that looks like. You can do all the techniques, but can't play a tune? Or you can only play things you've worked out?
Would you want to be in a band with someone who was great at their instrument, but not good at music?
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JustFuya
965 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:52 AM
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I prefer sitting in on a set over any other situation unless I'm one of a duo. No fuss, no muss, no ego clash. I'm uncomfortable when not playing on stage and silent participation is a craft that I practiced but never perfected.
I would never consider coming up on stage unless it was prearranged and and preceded by a chance to "sniff each other's butt". (I heard that quote from a woman I've been collaborating with and have been dying to use it. I hope you don't have to have a dog to understand it.)
The last band I was with (5 years ago) practiced twice a week. We worked hard for our shows as I'm sure most working bands do. Someone with unknown ability who expects to jump in out of the blue is simply unrealistic and likely clueless.
We did have one fella who was invited up on occasion. He was a 'friend' of the band who attended all our shows and parties. He was dreadful on the harp but on stage he would glow ecstatically with a huge toothless smile. His joy was our joy. The sound guy would turn his mic down so he was seen but not heard.
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Tuckster
1534 posts
Sep 27, 2016
10:00 AM
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Even early in my journey when I thought I was good(but wasn't) I would never think of asking a band to sit in.I would go out to my car during break and wail but I knew about "stage etiquette". Even now,if I know the local band,I still won't assume I'll be called up. The band has their own agenda and it ain't me.
I believe you can be technically proficient on an instrument and still be a lousy musician.Hell,I've seen it enough times. Music should be a team sport.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Sep 27, 2016 10:03 AM
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hvyj
3130 posts
Sep 27, 2016
10:43 AM
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I forget the fellow's name, but a while ago there was a European fellow advertising blues harp lessons on MBH. He posted some vids recording himself and his technique and intonation was awesome. Total mastery over all sorts of blues licks. Really impressive.
Then he posted a vid of him playing with a big time American blues band on tour in Europe fronted by a famous black blues singer/guitar player (again, I can't remember the name). The harp player was awful. His technique was damn near perfect as was his intonation. But he was simply regurgitating a barrage of blues licks, leaving no space, not interacting with the band and overplaying in the extreme. Obnoxious to listen to and aesthetically unmusical. But the guy had masterful command of the instrument and his intonation was perfect.
What does a limited player play? What he CAN play. What was this guy (who was by no means a limited player) playing? EVERYTHING he could play.
Perhaps the best piece of musical advice to come my way was from an experienced bandleader who was an excellent guitar player and very accomplished musician. He said the difference between an amateur musician and a professional musician is that the amateur thinks about what he is playing and what he is going to play. The pro is preoccupied with how what he is playing or going to play fits with what the rest of the band is playing. Words to live by....
Knowing how to play with other musicians is a skill distinct from skill at playing whatever your instrument is. And it will get you more opportunities to play than will awesome technique by itself.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 27, 2016 10:49 AM
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hvyj
3131 posts
Sep 27, 2016
11:08 AM
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But you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's a local harp player with his own band that works pretty regularly. Very strong technique, not much knowledge of music theory and hasn't come up with a new musical idea in years so far as I can tell. But his playing generates excitement even if it is otherwise pretty much devoid of emotion.
True story: I am in the audience listening to this guy and sitting next to another harmonica player. The guy on stage launches into a lengthly high energy solo filled with harmonica gymnastics showing off all kinds of flashy technique. I'm sitting there thinking to myself how this show off display was so boring and unartistic. Then the harp player I'm sitting next to turns to me and says, with admiration in his eyes, Doesn't this guy have incredible chops!
Hard to argue with that. No artistic message, nothing to say musically, but I guess for some of the audience (at least the guy sitting next to me) the medium itself was the message worthy of appreciation. So, to each his own, I guess.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 27, 2016 11:17 AM
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Chinaski
334 posts
Sep 27, 2016
12:38 PM
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I sat in with Deak Harp and his band at Ground Zero Blues Club in Clarksdale recently. But not before he had me stop by his shop that afternoon to prove I could play.
Nobody said the word audition, but that's exactly what it was.
And quite right too.
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Killa_Hertz
1785 posts
Sep 27, 2016
1:01 PM
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I think it's basic human psychology that makes us think that most everything they do is GREAT. It's what keeps us going. Most of the time we are running on fumes and don't even know it.
If we really thought about and could admit how pointless everything we do is, most of us wouldn't bother.
Having said that ... It's just bad form to ASK to sit in. IMO. Unless of course you know the band.
I always keep at least 2 harps on me always, but that's just so I can play if I get time.
Recording yourself can do two things.
A) Make you see your better than you thought you were when your feeling like your playing awful.
B) Make you see that your not as good as you think, when your feeling invincible
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Sundancer
31 posts
Sep 27, 2016
1:53 PM
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Good on ya Killa - too right about listening being important, in life generally and in particular to improve harping
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Reever Sorio
3 posts
Sep 27, 2016
2:10 PM
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I avoid the sit-in wanna be by explaining that we are under contract to do our show. If they can talk the club owner, booking agent/promoter into allowing them to play we would accommodate them after our show. In local-100 hundred miles of home- shows/clubs I had better know you and your abilities, and I never do loud.
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Philosofy
773 posts
Sep 27, 2016
6:23 PM
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I don't think anyone answered the question: what is Gussing? From what I understand, its standing in the crowd playing your harp along with the band. Most Gussers don't even care if they are in the right key.
As for sitting in with bands: I'm in sales, and travel during the week, so I don't have the time to join and rehearse with a band. I like going to jam nights, and I'm not afraid of asking to sit in with a band. Here are my guidelines to asking to sit in:
1. Let the band play one or two sets first. They are making their living, and this gives you a chance to evaluate if you can hang with them or not. It also lets them get the crowd riled up.
2. Find out who the band leader is: its not always the singer or the guitar player. Approach them respectfully. "No fucking way" is an answer that shouldn't offend you.
3. Let them know what keys you have. I carry an A and C with me at all times, but some bands tune down half a step. (Sometimes hearing you don't just have a C helps a lot.)
4. Offer to play some for them during the break so they can evaluate you.
5. This is important: if they let you up, its a great risk for them. If you play like Jason Ricci, they are going to sound lame in comparison. If you play like shit, then they sound lame with you. Remember this. If they do let you play, and you have fun, then help them out afterwards. As I said before, I'm in sales. If a band lets me up, after I'm done, I thank them over the mic, I tell the crowd what a great band they are listening to, and (this is the important part: just trust me on this): Ask the crowd these questions:
1) "Are you having fun tonight???"
2) "Do you like this band???!!!""
3) "ARE YOU GOING TO SHOW YOUR APPRECIATION???!!!"
At this point, the crowd should be pretty loud, shouting YES!
Then, you get off the stage, take the tip jar, and carry it around the crowd encouraging people to contribute. And you should contribute a $20 on top of it.
The phrasing of the question is important. If you just ask for tips, its a request, and people can comply or not on a whim. But if you ask if they will show their appreciation, and they say yes, then you've extracted a promise from them, and they are much more likely to contribute.
If you played well, the band will like you, but if you get them an extra hundred bucks, they will love you.
I've never been a professional musician, but I'd like to hear from those who are about my philosophy.
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hvyj
3134 posts
Sep 27, 2016
7:53 PM
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I cannot imagine going to play or sit in with anyone, anywhere, anytime with less than 7 different keys (G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb and F) as an absolute bare minimum. Personally, I almost always have a full set, but anything less than 7, IMHO, is disrespectful to the other musicians because it has high potential to force them to unreasonably limit what they do in order to acomodate your desire to play on a gig they are being paid to perform.
If you can't handle minor keys or out of the ordinary chord changes most competent musicians will be willing to avoid putting you in that position, for their own sake as well as a courtesy to you and because there is a wealth of other material available that won't confront you with those sorts of challenges. But if you can't handle playing in a commonly called major key because you only have 2 or 3 harps that's just rude, IMHO, because it is an unreasonable imposition on the band.
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Bugsy
74 posts
Sep 27, 2016
8:46 PM
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I didn't think about it, but when I did sit in I approached the artist (she was solo) in between her sets. I asked her if she had any songs in the key I had, and she told me she would let me know when to come up. I just sat back and tried to support as best I could, and I hung back there watching her until she cued me in to solo.
Not like I am a particularly good person or anything, I just didn't want to be labelled as one of *those* harp players. That, and I wanted to respect her show as much as possible. This was her thing that she invited me to participate in, it wasn't a favor that I was granting to her. Anyways, I only asked because she was playing mostly i-iv-v traditional blues stuff, and I thought I would be able to play that.
For the bit about being good at an instrument vs being a good musician, I think a good musician is good at making music (and has knowledge about it as well- either in intuition or in music theory), while someone who is good at an instrument is technical. I think hvyj gave a good example of someone who was good at harmonica but not necessarily a good musician. As the complement to that, I always think of When the Levee Breaks by Led Zeppelin. I don't think Robert Plant was all that technical, but what he did on the harp sounds *good* in an aesthetic, musical sense. He used what he did have well.
I can play harmonica decently, but I don't think I am a good musician.
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Tuckster
1536 posts
Sep 27, 2016
9:11 PM
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Philosophy - that's a wonderful philosophy!The band will always remember you fondly.
If I'm flying,I'll only bring 6 harps because that's all my soft case will hold. If you play the first 3 positions,that gives you lots of choices.
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LittleBubba
335 posts
Sep 28, 2016
11:04 AM
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I have a bandleader ( classic rock ) friend who asks strangers up to the stage frequently. He acts like some kind of pied piper, leading the camp kids to have fun. He makes it work regardless of how good or bad the instrumentalist is. BUT, most guys do not run their gigs like that. Personally, I would never ask to get up with strangers. When I get asked to sit in with a band, it's almost always 'cuz we've done it before and had alotta fun. But, when they see me in the crowd and say they'll have me up, I always tell 'em not to wreck a setlist by morphin' it to me. The show makes the rules. I don't want people to ask me up just 'cuz I'm there..
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harpdude61
2346 posts
Sep 28, 2016
12:22 PM
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We do let a few local musicians we know sit in. We learned the hard way about taking someone's word for how good they are. Especially harp players and singers.
I hate hurting people's feelings. My response is usually a lie. "I'm sure you are great but you are the third person to ask me tonight. I wouldn't feel right letting you up now". To the person that saw us let an acquaintance up and plays that back to me..."Yes, he came to practice last week just so we would let him play one". Both work great.
Private parties are a different thing. The host dictates the fun and we roll with it. Embrace it rather than cringe..lol
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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barbequebob
3293 posts
Sep 28, 2016
1:48 PM
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I find this thread rather ironic because a number of things being said here, I posted in another thread sometime ago called Sitting In As An Unknown Player, and caught some flack because I was very brutally honest about it. I still stand by everything that I said 100% and some of things obviously made some people feel extremely uncomfortable even tho they were the truth.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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garry
663 posts
Sep 28, 2016
8:18 PM
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I never ask to sit in. Doesn't feel right, putting them on the spot like that. That said, there are a number of local bands that will normally ask me to sit in if I'm there. I fit in, don't overplay, and the crowd digs it.
What I hate is when there are other harp players in the crowd who just walk up on stage and play. They're usually awful, and they make us all look like jerks. I sometimes decline, or leave before being asked, just to avoid being associated with *those* players.
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