groyster1
2872 posts
Sep 13, 2016
5:45 PM
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there is a pre war marine band for sale on ebay....key of H....WTF????theres no such key....but with magnification....it really is....key of H.....help folks
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RyanMortos
1576 posts
Sep 13, 2016
5:53 PM
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A little Googling around suggests H was the European key for B. Even says so on the product description if I'm looking at the same product you are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature_names_and_translations
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
Last Edited by RyanMortos on Sep 13, 2016 5:54 PM
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SuperBee
4111 posts
Sep 13, 2016
8:27 PM
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Definitely B. All the German sites use H.
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Moon Cat
584 posts
Sep 14, 2016
12:58 AM
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There was a key of H indeed.
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www.mooncat.org
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Killa_Hertz
1741 posts
Sep 14, 2016
2:29 AM
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Yea. You ll see that alot on the Harp Layouts. B(H)5, etc.
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Thievin' Heathen
832 posts
Sep 14, 2016
4:45 AM
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War was inevitable.
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Martin
1068 posts
Sep 14, 2016
4:56 AM
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There *is* a key of H indeed.
It stems from a misreading, but in large parts of the world under what we can call "Germanic influence" it is still the preferred way of designating B.
Your research, groyster1, was not particularly extensive. Here in Sweden we are now somewhere in between the English and the German way, thus older musicians say H and the younger, more exposed to the post WWII anglo-saxon influence, say B.
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Killa_Hertz
1747 posts
Sep 14, 2016
5:04 AM
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It stems from a misreading?
Care to elaborate Martin? That's interesting.
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Gnarly
1916 posts
Sep 14, 2016
5:23 AM
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I borrowed a Harmonetta from John Whiteman three weeks ago, just returned it to him--it was too weird for me!
But all the B notes were labeled H, and the B buttons played Bb.
Vern Morgus is selling a Harmonetta, BTW, in case anyone is looking.
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Owen Evans
198 posts
Sep 14, 2016
6:03 AM
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This is truly the reason why this forum rocks! For the past 3 years that I have been buying Hohner harmonicas, I have always noticed a strange nomenclature on the side of the box. There is a guide on the side of the Crossover boxes that tells you the Key of the song and the key you're playing in 1st, 2nd & 3rd position. There is always an H in parenthesis ( ) beside the key of B and this thread has finally answered my question as to why. Since I was new to all of this, I never asked why. Now I wish I had. Thanks.
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Bilzharp
126 posts
Sep 14, 2016
8:05 AM
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To further confuse things, when they put B or H on a prewar harp they really meant Bb. At least all of them I've seen. I didn't know they were still doing it when they made the Harmonetta though.
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nacoran
9231 posts
Sep 14, 2016
8:20 AM
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When you order a Seydel from their site you can actually specify German or international marking. For a long time I've been meaning to get an H just as a conversation starter, but so far I haven't been able to justify buying a new B harp. I've got a perfectly fine Sp20, and it's not a common enough key to need a pricey replacement. If only it was Bb. That's my go to key.
Another random bit of trivia- Bach's 'The Well Tempered Clavier' is referring to the temperament scheme that was supposed to be used to play it. (I don't know the specifics of the tuning.)
Thieven'- 'War is inevitable'... somewhere Lee Oskar is smiling. :)
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Nate
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Frank101
181 posts
Sep 14, 2016
9:19 AM
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And even more trivia - a lot of Classical composers, beginning with Bach himself, have used B flat-A-C-B natural (BACH in German notation) as a musical motif.
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WinslowYerxa
1221 posts
Sep 14, 2016
12:09 PM
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Speaking of Harmonettas, I've also seen ones labeled for the French speaking market with do, re, mi, etc. instead of C D E, etc.
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Sep 14, 2016 12:09 PM
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Joe_L
2672 posts
Sep 14, 2016
4:31 PM
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Mississippi Fred McDowell used to play in the key of H.
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Little roger
158 posts
Sep 15, 2016
5:10 AM
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Most musicians here in Germany now also say B or Bb.
I had an Italian bassist for awhile and that was difficult! He always talked about do ray me fa so la ti do!
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Martin
1069 posts
Sep 15, 2016
6:09 AM
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@Killa Herz: "It stems from a misreading?
Care to elaborate Martin? That's interesting."
From what I was taught many and many a year ago the German monks who copied musical notes from the Latin alphabet mistook the "b" for the "h" when they wrote it down in their Fraktur calligraphy. (If you look up Fraktur on Wikipedia you can se it.)
A rather stupid mistake one might think -- although the letters are similar indeed -- since "a-h-c-d" etc is a disturbingly failed analogy of the alphabet. But the tradition stuck.
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groyster1
2873 posts
Sep 15, 2016
10:19 AM
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you are correct that I did not research this but have been playing harp over 30 years....I just know there are 12 keys....but this is my first awareness of the key of H
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Little roger
159 posts
Sep 15, 2016
10:41 AM
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It actually came from lowercase b and a "square" b which changed for clarity on the advent of printing (according to German Wikipedia)
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Thievin' Heathen
833 posts
Sep 15, 2016
4:14 PM
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I have a pre-war 260 that is "C" with the button out and " A MOL" with the button in.
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florida-trader
993 posts
Sep 17, 2016
2:33 PM
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I won the auction for the H harp. I was already the high bidder before groyster1 started this thread. It only took $39.00. I'm surprised the bidding didn't go a little higher. Thanks guys for not bidding it up on me. I don't think it is a pre-war. There is no 6 pointed star on the back cover, but I guess the absense of the star is not a guarantee that it isn't a pre-war.
In the past several months, I have asked numerous "authorities" if they can tell me when Hohner introduced the "odd" keys. By "odd", I mean the keys other than G, A, Bb, C, D, E and F. The pre-wars were only made in those 7 keys but as we all know today, Marine Bands are made in the "odd" keys of Ab, B, Db, Eb and F#. Nobody has been able to give me a difinitive answer including Martin Haeffner, curator of the Harmonika Museum in Trossingen.
To add to the confusion, when these keys were introduced, the Db was labeled C#. One of the Sonny Terry Estate harps is a C# and another one is the key of Es, with the lower case "s" being the German symbol for the flat sign.
Anyway, I had heard about the Marine Bands in the key of H but had never seen one, hence my interest in owning it. Not sure what I will do with it. Probably just add it to my collection. If I figure anything out about it after I get it in, I will let you know.
Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 17, 2016 2:35 PM
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groyster1
2874 posts
Sep 17, 2016
6:20 PM
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glad you won it tom.....key of H....thought it was a joke.....only aware of 12 keys....but not H
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nacoran
9234 posts
Sep 17, 2016
7:56 PM
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Thieven', with more music theory than harp theory when I started out I tried to play minor tuned stuff in the equivalent natural minor. If the song was in A minor that meant I'd grab a C harp. For a guy just learning it didn't work particularly well. The notes were all there technically, but they didn't lay out particularly well for someone who'd played mostly 1st and a bit of second.
C#/Db get swapped around. I think I've also seen Gb harps out of Asia online.
It would be kind of fun to have a set of stickers with ridiculous key names. You could have your 'C##' D harp or a 'Dbb' C harp.
Or you could get really crazy and mix language, key (including silly things like double sharps), major/minor, and tuning...
This page from Wikipedia would get you part way there...
Key Signature Names and Translations, Wikipedia
It doesn't include things like harmonic or natural or dorian, but you could have a 'Sol España' for a G harp in Spanish tuning. :)
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Sep 17, 2016 7:57 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
834 posts
Sep 18, 2016
10:27 AM
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I think we, harmonica players, are our own worst enemy when it comes to theory. Years wasted with all that 2nd position, 3rd position, 12th position. I am trying to abandon it completely. I will be playing in the key of C on an F harmonica and the key of Am on a G because that's where I will find the notes and the chords to play in that key signature. I will practice and play in the key signature of the music. Why impose another puzzle on ourselves and continue to fertilize the widely held opinion that we are just blowing on a toy.
Yesterday I had a guitar player tell me the song was going to be in Am so I needed a C harmonica. Compounding that, the song was a hymn. It was almost too much for a civilized heathen to bare. I wonder how that might have turned out. All the notes were there, but I still checked the sky for thunder clouds.
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nacoran
9235 posts
Sep 18, 2016
11:56 AM
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Never let the guitar player tell you what position to play in! :)
Ideally you get to the point where you know all the notes in each scale and where they are on your harp and can listen to a tune and can decide what notes you want to play and then figure out which position gives you those notes with the best intonation. Lots of us will never get to that level. I'm at the point where I can try a handful of positions and see if they work, but I just look at the circle and grab the harps for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and maybe 12th and see if I can figure something out. I know enough theory that I could tortuously sit down and chart out what I'm doing, but the band would have packed up and be on their way to the next gig by the time I'd really analyzed my first song.
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Nate
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Bilzharp
127 posts
Sep 19, 2016
7:09 AM
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"In the past several months, I have asked numerous "authorities" if they can tell me when Hohner introduced the "odd" keys. By "odd", I mean the keys other than G, A, Bb, C, D, E and F. The pre-wars were only made in those 7 keys..." - florida-trader
Correction, Tom. In that 1936 Hohner catalog I sent you a couple years ago, it states that Marine Bands and Old Standbys could be ordered in Eb. I picked up a couple on Ebay a few years back but I imagine they're pretty rare. I think most harmonica players at that time that were interested in "jazz keys" would have moved on to chromatic.
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florida-trader
994 posts
Sep 19, 2016
8:00 AM
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Yes sir Bilzharp. You are correct and as you know, I have one of those rare pre-war Eb's. Other than 1936, do you have any idea when Hohner started offering the "odd" keys in addition to Eb on a regular or permanent basis?
And for those of you haven't seen this before, I did scan and post pictures of the comple 1936 catalogue Bilzharp so graciously sent me. Thanks again for your generosity.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 19, 2016 8:04 AM
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Bilzharp
128 posts
Sep 19, 2016
9:24 AM
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" do you have any idea when Hohner started offering the "odd" keys in addition to Eb on a regular or permanent basis?"
That's a good question. There's a pretty wide gap in my catalog collection from 1959 to 1972. '59 didn't have the odd keys, '72 did. I have a 1973 price list that shows Db as C#, etc. but that doesn't mean much. I have catalogs from the 50's that show Marine Bands with mouse ear cover plates! Interestingly, all the price lists and catalogs that I have from the 50's show that Eb had been dropped after the war.
I'm no harmonica historian. Just a guy that's accumulated too much old crap!
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florida-trader
995 posts
Sep 19, 2016
10:02 AM
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I think there is a fine line between a "Collector" and a "Hoarder". It is possible that I have crossed that line a time or two.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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groyster1
2875 posts
Sep 19, 2016
12:46 PM
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I own many "star of david harps"but they are mine and will never consider myself a hoarder....probably will never know whether or not they are actually prewar but would like to think the mouse ears really are
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florida-trader
996 posts
Sep 19, 2016
4:56 PM
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Amen Brother groyster1!
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Bilzharp
135 posts
Sep 30, 2016
2:52 PM
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Hey Tom Halchak, if you're still reading this. I saw something on ebay that somewhat narrows the window of when Hohner started offering the "odd" keys. A vendor has a Feb.'69 Hicksville price list that states " 'All Keys' means A,Bb,C,D,E,F and G". So, they weren't available in '69 but were available in '72 (I have the catalog and price list for that year). I have other indicators that Db(C#)wasn't available until a year or two after the rest of the "odd keys" were introduced so that means they were introduced in '70 or '71. If you believe the advertising and price lists, anyway.
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florida-trader
1011 posts
Oct 02, 2016
11:20 AM
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Bilzharp - Thanks for that intel. Seems like we are getting closer to figuring this puzzle out.
I did indeed win the auction for the H harp and have received it. It is in good condition. All the reeds play freely. I am still not convinced that it is a pre-war although apparently it does have it's small place in the evolution of the Marine Band.
I will add thie H harp to my set of pre-wars. I plan to take some pictures and post them here for all to see. I have a assembled a complete set that are the best of each key that I have managed to find - including the rare 1936 Eb.
I'll post them soon.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Bilzharp
138 posts
Nov 02, 2016
2:13 PM
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An update and correction to this thread concerning when "all keys" became available in Hohner harmonicas. I recently acquired a Hohner catalog off ebay that I think is probably '67 or '68. There is no date or date code in the catalog but it has trumpet player Al Hirt on the cover and other references to that picture in ad copy on the net show it being copyrighted by Hohner in '67. There is also a Feb. '68 Billboard magazine reference to a Hohner/Al Hirt poster ad campaign. The catalog shows the Marine Band and Orchestra harmonicas being available in all 12 keys. The Blues Harp, which must have been a fairly new product, was at that time only available in 9 keys (B natural and Eb added to the basic 7). I believe I was misreading the '69 price list in my previous post. "All Keys" meant all 12 keys. "All Keys*" (with an asterisk) meant the basic 7 keys.
So there we go. All 12 keys were available by 1968, possibly earlier. Stay tuned for more exciting updates!
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