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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Sound differences between cheap and cheaper harps
Sound differences between cheap and cheaper harps
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Martin
1046 posts
Jul 26, 2016
3:47 PM
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This is an offshoot from the marathon tread starting with Joel´s demonstration of his harmonicas, as compared to other, non-customized instruments.
Now, read me right all you easily offended people who are all over the Net – and even here on MBH: This is NOT a slam on custom harps. NOT. If I had the money Joel (fellow countryman and all), Tom H, Andrew Z, Ben B et al would see massive orders from me.
But some people have to eat in the kitchen. Nasty as it seems.
So, here´s a demo of two cheapo harps, and one ordinary prized. One is from the German variety store Lidl. It is nameless – cost me around $5. One is an old Huang Silvertone – don´t remember exactly what it cost but something in the neighborhood of $10.
And one is an ordinary Lee Oskar. (None of them is perfectly in tune BTW. This is rough.)
In order to make the distinction between the three almost impossible I´m playing with a lot of effects. A lot. It sounds terrible, of course, but not, I claim, because of the inferior harps but the playing and the sound. Still, I believe it´s a sound that you could use to impress, say, 13 year olds, with a penchant for hard rock.
Now tell me which one is which. To make it easier I use three different positions, one for each harp respectively.
If you can´t tell the difference, then maybe, just maybe, investing in a lot of effects could be your path?
Last Edited by Martin on Jul 26, 2016 3:48 PM
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ME.HarpDoc
170 posts
Jul 26, 2016
4:09 PM
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The differences are there, but I can't tell you which, so your point is well taken. Effects do make up for some deficiencies in quality. So tell me, what would be the cost of all the effects vs. buying a bunch of decent harps?
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MindTheGap
1726 posts
Jul 27, 2016
2:00 AM
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It's a very good point. My main interest is playing amped, though not as effects-y and distorted as this.
We are told that cupping the mic has the effect of removing higher harmonics from the input signal, then the amp adds harmonics back through its distortion (e.g. soft or hard clipping, inter-modulation distortion, lumps and bumps in the frequency response using amps that don't use negative feedback) to give those nice ampy sounds.
So one of the benefits of a custom harp - the sharper timbre - doesn't add anything.
I've demonstrated before how when people play louder, acoustically, the extra volume appears in the higher harmonics. So again, having a 'loud' harp isn't a great benefit playing amped. In fact it may be a disbenefit, as typically you don't want those harmonics.
There is the better responsiveness of the custom. But for playing amped blues, I'm mostly wanting to play quite slowly compared to say, an Irish reel, so it's not a must-have quality.
I've got better amped sounds from a cheapo bluesband than a crossover - of that particular 'warm, amped' type. I think exactly because the softer timbre of the cheap harp compensates from my lack of cupping technique. The crossover, being much brighter, needs harder cupping. Which incidentally can be quite uncomfortable on the hands with its sharp edges.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 27, 2016 2:11 AM
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MindTheGap
1727 posts
Jul 27, 2016
2:44 AM
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BTW Martin you really should stop apologising for your playing! :) As for the heavy metal sound here, not my cup of tea but it's definitely 'a thing' and you do it really well. Hakan uses it to good effect all the time with joy and gusto.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 27, 2016 2:45 AM
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Martin
1047 posts
Jul 27, 2016
6:26 AM
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@MEHarpDoc: The effects here are all coming from an RP150 pedal. Bought mine used for $100 a couple of years ago. Very guitar oriented, but for going right into the computer it can be good fun -- otherwise it´s feedback all over the place. (You can buy Hunter´s harmonica settings, and you can also tweak it a little by yourself but you won´t get these far out sounds for live playing. Or at least, I haven´t heard them.)
@MindTheGap: Very interesting. I share that same experience with cheaper harps, but haven´t dressed it in words. Although they can be a bit sluggish, as well as hard to OB, some cheapo harps do sound rather good or even better with effects. My experience from custom harps is nil, but I buy the regular stuff quite frequently, and there are hits and misses. (The S20´s are good today but I dare not play them except on gigs.)
No, I´m not into these effects when playing live either, and it would be practically impossible I think (my favourite sound is the warm, ever so slightly ovedriven sound that, e.g. Lee Oskar used to have), but it´s fun to toy with them here at home.
As for the playing, you are kind MTG and I thank you, but I guess you know as well as I do that it´s not that hard to sound "cool" when you´re "hiding" behind distortion, flanger and what have you. It almost plays by itself.
Last Edited by Martin on Jul 27, 2016 6:27 AM
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tf10music
274 posts
Jul 28, 2016
11:06 AM
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Reverb and delay cover for so much, both live and in production, especially in terms of tone. Your playing sounds great throughout, so it is hard to tell which is the cheaper instrument. That said, I'd probably be looking for a different input sound if I wanted to get my final sound primarily from effects that i'm applying. Maybe something a bit more neutral/less uniquely harmonica-ish, and a bit thinner, so that i could process it a bunch without worrying about the output getting too muddy -- that's the beauty of, say, a sawtooth synth. With that in mind, it might be worth it to mess around with a cheap harp to that end, run it through octave pedals, fuzz pedals, all sorts of reverb and delay, maybe even run it through a vocoder. I'd be interested in hearing the results.
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MindTheGap
1731 posts
Jul 29, 2016
2:18 AM
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I think the sounds that Martin gets here are much more subtle and musical than you'd get with a synth as the input source.
Just like hi-fuzz guitar, it's not my thing. But I think the playing in that sample is right on the money to exploit that kind of sound.
I have heard examples elsewhere of effects-laden harp that aren't very good musically. Yes there is an initial wow factor of a big sound, but it wears off.
I'm going to repeat the point that, even with a much simpler and less distorted amped sound, a 'cheap' harp seems to work well. As long as you can get the notes.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 29, 2016 2:23 AM
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Martin
1048 posts
Jul 29, 2016
5:05 AM
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Perhaps I should say that the harmonicas are, in order, first the $5 thing from Lidl, in C (comes only in that key), played in 5th position; then the Huang Silvertone, in D, thus 3d pos; then the LO in A and 2nd pos.
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dougharps
1277 posts
Jul 29, 2016
8:13 AM
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Good demo!
Your playing is just fine, particularly given that you are using less than optimal gear. No need to apologize, you clearly know your way around a diatonic! I would go to some of your gigs, were they nearby.
Norton Buffalo reportedly used Silvertones at one point in his career, so cheaper harps can give good results.
You make good use of the effects. However, highly processed or even highly distorted real tube amp sounds (when it is REALLY fuzzy) are not my favorite harp sounds.
While I prefer to play my few customs harps and mid to higher end OOTB harps that I have adjusted, no one has ever complained that my sound front of the house suffered from my using less expensive harps. As long as all the notes worked and they were not too far out of tune, they can sound fine. I used a key of C Pocket Pal for a few years, and it got the job done.
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Doug S.
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Martin
1049 posts
Jul 30, 2016
5:48 AM
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Thank you, Doug.
It´s a pity that the Huangs have more or less disappeared. When played acoustically they could perhaps sound a bit tinny (even in the hands of Buffalo and Mark Ford, who also used them I believe) but that was no issue when amplified.
You could get something like 2,5 Silvertones for one Hohner, and they held up really well.
I also had a Pocket Pal that served me nicely for quite some time, which led me to buy another one and it gave up in a week ...
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bonedog569
1045 posts
Jul 30, 2016
10:19 AM
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NO freakin way can I hear a difference beneath the fx - but I don't really care. I love what you'e doing on this - and love the sounds. Most screaming guitar like tones I've heard from a harp - and you make use of them perfectly. Demo shmemo. You just wanted to share your shred - and I'm glad you did.
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bonedog569
1046 posts
Jul 30, 2016
10:37 AM
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I didn't know your playing before this clip - but I'd be willing to bet you have great acoustic tone. The way you make use of the fx is excellent. You milk them for everything they're worth . I don't believe reverb, delay, fuzz or anything else can cover weak tone, and less so, weak chops. 5th P eh? I'll have to try playing along on a C - though this heavy metal style isn't something I'd normally try to emulate. I'd love if you or someone could mark the position and harp changes, - or tell me the exact timing in the clip they change. 'Mr. Golden Ears' here can't hear them. fwiw, I probably played onstage more with Silvertones than any other harp. I was in a 3 gigs a week country rock band in the 80's and had gotten tired of Honer's rising prices and declining QC.
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Last Edited by bonedog569 on Jul 30, 2016 10:38 AM
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bonedog569
1047 posts
Jul 30, 2016
10:42 AM
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Checking your other soundcloud posts - One chord, 2 harps , one RP150 cool too. What position are you doing those speed licks in?
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Last Edited by bonedog569 on Jul 30, 2016 10:43 AM
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Martin
1050 posts
Aug 01, 2016
5:45 AM
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Thank you kindly, bonedog.
The harp and position changes occur somewhere around 1:40, where I go from 5th to 3d, and then from 3d to 2nd around 3:25. (There are small breaks so you should be able to work it out.)
Not shure which speed licks you are referring to, so you have to give some some indication. But as I might have said above -- and you probably already know it -- fuzz/distortion and reverb/delay makes it *way* easier to churn out some fast things, and still sound, erh ..., moderately convincing. Those fx somehow creates an alloy between the notes and you don´t even have to be perfectly clean in order to sound, yes, moderately convincing. (Heavy metal guitar players have been doing this for a long time.)
It is not the kind of approach to scales etc that will take you to Juilliard and such -- but it´s not forbidden by law. (And I promise, I can at least sound decent when playing clean as well.)
The fun is of course in emulating that screaming guitar sound. But, as I also say, don´t expect to be able to bring this level of distortion to a live stage -- unless some very sophisticated trickery is involved. If someone has done it, I´d be really interested in hearing.
I´m toying with the idea of a short video on "cheating" and if I get my shit together I´ll put it up.
Meanwhile I believe both Håkan Ehn and Mike Fugazzi, who are both on the forum, have made demos of fast playing -- which is almost always following a specific pattern that you have rehearsed. (And, as you say in the US, it can get old really quick, but it can also prick up people´s ears.)
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bonedog569
1048 posts
Aug 03, 2016
12:35 PM
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Thanks Martin.
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