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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Harp Sterilization
Harp Sterilization
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JustFuya
927 posts
Jul 20, 2016
11:41 AM
I'm looking for a way to sterilize a harp after minor adjustment. This is a one time thing I need to do on a couple of OOTB SP20s that are going to a neighbor. I don't want to go all in on equipment but I do want to be thorough.

I've heard ultrasonic mentioned here as a common method but that may be overkill. If that's the consensus what brand of equipment is recommended.
arzajac
1784 posts
Jul 20, 2016
11:53 AM
Sp20s can be submerged. I suggest cleaning the surfaces well and then dunk them in Hydrogen Peroxide. It's cheap, safe and very effective against all the common pathogens.

Ultrasonic cleaners don't sterilize, nor can they get into the nooks and crannies of an assembled harp.

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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Cotton
71 posts
Jul 20, 2016
11:55 AM
As long as it is not a wood comb, just drop it into some warm water with a Denture cleaning tablet. If you want to get a ultrasonic cleaner, Harbor Freight has one for cheap.
SleepingCat
15 posts
Jul 20, 2016
4:14 PM
Is it safe (to the harmonica) to perform the denture tablet method on a manji?
mx
17 posts
Jul 20, 2016
5:53 PM
Hi all, remove all metal parts the place in a bowl of water (2cups) then add 1/2TSB of Cream of Tartar spice. now place the water in the microwave and boil for 5-10 min.
Cotton
72 posts
Jul 20, 2016
5:57 PM
I use the denture tablet method on my Suzuki Olives, I believe they have the same type of comb as a manji.
Bugfan
46 posts
Jul 20, 2016
7:35 PM
I service breathing apparatus and use same for my harps.
Step 1 :Disinfect first- 2 min soak in solution with hospital grade disinfectant. Cold is fine but hand temp will soften "particles..." for next step.
Step 2.. 5 mins in ultrasonic bath slightly warmer than body temp 40 degrees C ,use mild, biodegradable, non foaming detergent or you can get "ultrasonic cleaning solutions" the same.
I have found the baths excellent for the cracks and crevices - remember the ultrasonic doesn't clean ,it just loosens. Then you flush out straight away with warm running water- that removes the loosened stuff. I'd only use ph neutral detergent - a lot of the "cleaners" are not ( not sure what the denture cleaner stuff ph is) and with reactive metals like brass, bronze, phosphor bronze you can do damage - especially to the sharp edges of reeds or plates . Hard to see with the naked eye but those little edges would be first to be eaten very slightly away by any chemicals that aren't neutral.
Step 3 - rinse well - immerse and run under water.
If you then did some work on a harp for some one else - repeat step 1 & 3 only - unless you had a Burrito while you worked...
A little of the disinfectant and detergent will go a long way and cheaper jewellery type baths are effective enough apparently. I'd imagine the really cheap ones not so good but if you got something next step up you could do the ladies jewellery as well and have them forever in your debt...and that's why you wanted to be a musician in the first place!
mx
18 posts
Jul 20, 2016
8:43 PM
hi all, remove all metal parts then place them in a bowl of water about two cups add 1/2 TBS of Cream of Tartar (spice section of store) and boil for 5-10 min.
mx
19 posts
Jul 20, 2016
8:52 PM
Hi all, ok remove all metal parts and place them a bowl of water about two cups then add 1/2 TBS of Cream of Tartar spice and boil 5-10 min.
mx
20 posts
Jul 20, 2016
8:56 PM
Hi all, ok remove all metal parts and place them a bowl of water about two cups then add 1/2 TBS of Cream of Tartar spice and boil 5-10 min.
Owen Evans
167 posts
Jul 20, 2016
9:01 PM
Wow there's certainly a lot of ways to clean & sterilize a harmonica!

For me a toothbrush & warm water with mild dish soap is usually enough to clean mine. For disinfectant, I use good old 94% alcohol (ethyl alcohol) with Q-tips. It's available in Quebec liquor stores, & yeah some folks drink it in various ways. [-never use rubbing alcohol as it can truly mess you up]

If a brass reed plate has months of corrosion on it, it can be cleaned with Bar Keepers Friend cleanser with a tooth brush. Be careful with the tooth brush as its bristles can mess up reed position. Always brush from rivet to reed tip & be gentle. It will look like new. Rinse 'very' thoroughly after cleaning. Always let the parts dry completely before plinking all the reeds and then re-assemble. Hope this is useful.

Last Edited by Owen Evans on Jul 20, 2016 9:02 PM
didjcripey
1050 posts
Jul 20, 2016
11:00 PM
Cleaning with hot soapy water and toothbrush is sometimes a good idea (not wooden combs).
Sterilise? you must be crazy. The moment you take that harp out of the sterilising solution, it gets covered with bacteria.
Perhaps 0.1% of bacteria are harmful. The thing that protects us from them is the other 99.9% (they give our immune system and indeed every part of our body functionality).
Bacteria and yeasts are your friend. I soak my harps in sauerkraut and beer so as to get a full dose.

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Lucky Lester
Bugfan
47 posts
Jul 21, 2016
12:31 AM
Sterilising is a whole other thing. I disinfect stuff before I work on it... ever had a fungal infection get started in a cut or under finernail...not nice. I clean and disinfect my harps before I send them for repair out of respect to the repairer and I know he does the same after he's fixed them and tested em - I don't want his bugs either! I don't clean them often for myself (- as @didjcripey says its my own germs) ...maybe once every 6 mths quick bath etc, as above takes me all of about 15 mins for about 25 odd harps.Some do seem to play better after a clean..maybe just a bit sticky....
I shower at least once a week myself!
hvyj
3082 posts
Jul 21, 2016
4:29 AM
Sterisol. A brass and woodwind mouthpiece cleaner. Either applied directly or in solution in an ultra sonic cleaner.
SuperBee
3932 posts
Jul 21, 2016
5:39 AM
Yeah I'm much more concerned about my client's harps than my own. I scrub and ultrasonic, and use my own test combs for the wooden harps I work on. I clean the customer's combs but the wooden/bamboo don't get submerged so the cleaning is on a superficial visible level. With the waterproof parts they get full submersion, ultrasound, hot water, scrub and detergent. I don't want to leave bugs nor chemicals so I don't use polish, just elbow grease to shine covers. I don't try to remove tarnish from Reedplates but I do have a crack at corrosion. The green build up on reeds will affect tuning but I don't attack them purposefully beyond the general cleaning process and the tuning process. Usually that build up is on the root of the reed and if the reed is sharp, my first pass at tuning will scrape away at that layer.
Steel reeds don't get green, but they do also accumulate a layer of goo. I haven't thought very deeply on what that is.
I do know that some things,( I assume it's drinks,) react strongly with brass. Sometimes I get a harp with very defined spots of blue and white crystals on the Reedplate, often involving a reed and slot and these can inhibit the action of the reed. I presume something like Coca-Cola has got in and sat there long enough to react. I've seen it a few times.
When I clean this off the brass underneath is a different colour so maybe it leaches something out.
I had some harps I think we're cleaned in strong vinegar or cola. They were very discoloured and very flat, the entire harp was flat, some reeds around 35 cents, some only 20 cents but I assume a chemical was involved because no physical signs of manual interference with the reeds, eg non factory tuning marks.
Owen Evans
168 posts
Jul 21, 2016
8:02 AM
As I read through the thread after my first post, it dawned on me that the request from @JustFuya was for sterilization. I apologize as the disinfectant, alcohol, I suggested is an antimicrobial agent to destroy any microorganisms that are living on the harps.
As I read through the thread there were responses for sterilization which are not correct. As @Bugfan wrote, he also disinfects the harps. What's the difference?
Sterilization happens with one or more of the following: heat, chemicals, irradiation, high pressure, and filtration. Sterilization is uniquely different from disinfection & sanitization in that sterilization kills, deactivates, or eliminates all forms of life and other biological agents. The traditional chemicals are: Ethylene oxide; Nitrogen dioxide; Ozone; Glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde; Hydrogen peroxide and Peracetic acid. Most of these you don't want to mess with!

Take note of the second last one which @Andrew Zajac already told us about. Good old cheap hydrogen peroxide which from the drug store is only 3%
In the science lab the concentration used is 35-90% so if you buy from the drug store, try to get the 35% or at least 10% for efficacy.
Thanks for answering correctly Andrew!
arzajac
1785 posts
Jul 21, 2016
8:37 AM
All technicalities aside, I think the point is to kill offending microorganisms regardless of what you call it. For example, if someone with active cold sores plays my harp, I want a way to make the harp safe for me to play without the risk of disease transmission.

Hydrogen peroxide 0.5 per cent has a wide-spectrum when in contact for 30 seconds. It kills TB, E Coli, Herpes, HIV (everything kills HIV, it's fragile), hepatitis and just about any other pathogen you would be worried about.

On some 3% bottles the instructions are to dilute 3% in 8 to 10 parts of water and soak for 5 minutes. I reckon that would be very effective.

But the stuff is so commonly available and cheap that you can easily use a higher concentration. Don't worry about it.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
bublnsqueak
55 posts
Jul 21, 2016
8:39 AM
Miltons Fluid - Baby sterilising stuff.
JustFuya
929 posts
Jul 21, 2016
10:42 AM
Thank you all. Hydrogen peroxide 0.5% it is.

Some of those 0.1% of bad bacteria are nasty and I'd hate to be a giver or receiver of them. Pneumonia is another that can be particularly evil and it's making its rounds hereabouts.
Owen Evans
169 posts
Jul 21, 2016
1:39 PM
@ arzajac - I am afraid that your statement about technicalities isn't correct as per the CDC in the USA. You describe 30 second contact & that is not enough. Then you tell people to dilute the 3% with 8-10 times water for a 5 minute soak.
The devil is in the details and here they are for everyone to learn.

https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/7_0formaldehyde.html

Hydrogen Peroxide
Overview. The literature contains several accounts of the properties, germicidal effectiveness, and potential uses for stabilized hydrogen peroxide in the health-care setting. Published reports ascribe good germicidal activity to hydrogen peroxide and attest to its bactericidal, virucidal, sporicidal, and fungicidal properties 653-655. (Tables 4 and 5) The FDA website lists cleared liquid chemical sterilants and high-level disinfectants containing hydrogen peroxide and their cleared contact conditions.
Mode of Action.Hydrogen peroxide works by producing destructive hydroxyl free radicals that can attack membrane lipids, DNA, and other essential cell components. Catalase, produced by aerobic organisms and facultative anaerobes that possess cytochrome systems, can protect cells from metabolically produced hydrogen peroxide by degrading hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen. This defense is overwhelmed by the concentrations used for disinfection 653, 654.
Microbicidal Activity. Hydrogen peroxide is active against a wide range of microorganisms, including bacteria, yeasts, fungi, viruses, and spores 78, 654. A 0.5% accelerated hydrogen peroxide demonstrated bactericidal and virucidal activity in 1 minute and mycobactericidal and fungicidal activity in 5 minutes 656. Bactericidal effectiveness and stability of hydrogen peroxide in urine has been demonstrated against a variety of health-care–associated pathogens; organisms with high cellular catalase activity (e.g., S. aureus, S. marcescens, and Proteus mirabilis) required 30–60 minutes of exposure to 0.6% hydrogen peroxide for a 108 reduction in cell counts, whereas organisms with lower catalase activity (e.g., E. coli, Streptococcus species, and Pseudomonas species) required only 15 minutes' exposure 657. In an investigation of 3%, 10%, and 15% hydrogen peroxide for reducing spacecraft bacterial populations, a complete kill of 106 spores (i.e., Bacillus species) occurred with a 10% concentration and a 60-minute exposure time. A 3% concentration for 150 minutes killed 106 spores in six of seven exposure trials 658. A 10% hydrogen peroxide solution resulted in a 103 decrease in B. atrophaeus spores, and a >105 decrease when tested against 13 other pathogens in 30 minutes at 20ºC 659, 660. A 3.0% hydrogen peroxide solution was ineffective against VRE after 3 and 10 minutes exposure times 661 and caused only a 2-log10 reduction in the number of Acanthamoeba cysts in approximately 2 hours 662. A 7% stabilized hydrogen peroxide proved to be sporicidal (6 hours of exposure), mycobactericidal (20 minutes), fungicidal (5 minutes) at full strength, virucidal (5 minutes) and bactericidal (3 minutes) at a 1:16 dilution when a quantitative carrier test was used 655. The 7% solution of hydrogen peroxide, tested after 14 days of stress (in the form of germ-loaded carriers and respiratory therapy equipment), was sporicidal (>7 log10 reduction in 6 hours), mycobactericidal (>6.5 log10 reduction in 25 minutes), fungicidal (>5 log10 reduction in 20 minutes), bactericidal (>6 log10 reduction in 5 minutes) and virucidal (5 log10 reduction in 5 minutes) 663. Synergistic sporicidal effects were observed when spores were exposed to a combination of hydrogen peroxide (5.9%–23.6%) and peracetic acid 664. Other studies demonstrated the antiviral activity of hydrogen peroxide against rhinovirus 665. The time required for inactivating three serotypes of rhinovirus using a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution was 6–8 minutes; this time increased with decreasing concentrations (18-20 minutes at 1.5%, 50–60 minutes at 0.75%).
Concentrations of hydrogen peroxide from 6% to 25% show promise as chemical sterilants. The product marketed as a sterilant is a premixed, ready-to-use chemical that contains 7.5% hydrogen peroxide and 0.85% phosphoric acid (to maintain a low pH) 69. The mycobactericidal activity of 7.5% hydrogen peroxide has been corroborated in a study showing the inactivation of >105 multidrug-resistant M. tuberculosis after a 10-minute exposure 666. Thirty minutes were required for >99.9% inactivation of poliovirus and HAV 667. Three percent and 6% hydrogen peroxide were unable to inactivate HAV in 1 minute in a carrier test 58. When the effectiveness of 7.5% hydrogen peroxide at 10 minutes was compared with 2% alkaline glutaraldehyde at 20 minutes in manual disinfection of endoscopes, no significant difference in germicidal activity was observed 668. ). No complaints were received from the nursing or medical staff regarding odor or toxicity. In one study, 6% hydrogen peroxide (unused product was 7.5%) was more effective in the high-level disinfection of flexible endoscopes than was the 2% glutaraldehyde solution 456. A new, rapid-acting 13.4% hydrogen peroxide formulation (that is not yet FDA-cleared) has demonstrated sporicidal, mycobactericidal, fungicidal, and virucidal efficacy. Manufacturer data demonstrate that this solution sterilizes in 30 minutes and provides high-level disinfection in 5 minutes 669. This product has not been used long enough to evaluate material compatibility to endoscopes and other semicritical devices, and further assessment by instrument manufacturers is needed.
Under normal conditions, hydrogen peroxide is extremely stable when properly stored (e.g., in dark containers). The decomposition or loss of potency in small containers is less than 2% per year at ambient temperatures 670.

Uses. Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when used on inanimate surfaces. It has been used in concentrations from 3% to 6% for disinfecting soft contact lenses (e.g., 3% for 2–3 hrs) 653, 671, 672, tonometer biprisms 513, ventilators 673, fabrics 397, and endoscopes 456. Hydrogen peroxide was effective in spot-disinfecting fabrics in patients' rooms 397. Corneal damage from a hydrogen peroxide-soaked tonometer tip that was not properly rinsed has been reported 674. Hydrogen peroxide also has been instilled into urinary drainage bags in an attempt to eliminate the bag as a source of bladder bacteriuria and environmental contamination 675. Although the instillation of hydrogen peroxide into the bag reduced microbial contamination of the bag, this procedure did not reduce the incidence of catheter-associated bacteriuria 675.
A chemical irritation resembling pseudomembranous colitis caused by either 3% hydrogen peroxide or a 2% glutaraldehyde has been reported 621. An epidemic of pseudomembrane-like enteritis and colitis in seven patients in a gastrointestinal endoscopy unit also has been associated with inadequate rinsing of 3% hydrogen peroxide from the endoscope 676.
As with other chemical sterilants, dilution of the hydrogen peroxide must be monitored by regularly testing the minimum effective concentration (i.e., 7.5%–6.0%). Compatibility testing by Olympus America of the 7.5% hydrogen peroxide found both cosmetic changes (e.g., discoloration of black anodized metal finishes) 69 and functional changes with the tested endoscopes (Olympus, written communication, October 15, 1999).

Last Edited by Owen Evans on Jul 21, 2016 1:39 PM
Owen Evans
170 posts
Jul 21, 2016
4:18 PM
I don't know what happened but my post earlier was lost or removed?

I wrote that the information which Andrew Zajac wrote about peroxide was inaccurate and I posted the following so as to clarify that 0.5% Hydrogen peroxide for 30 seconds is inadequate for the task. Secondly, taking 3% hydrogen peroxide and diluting it by 8-10 parts renders that inadequate as well.

Here is the full read if you are interested in sterilizing the harmonica.
If you're happy with disinfectants, don't bother.

https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/7_0formaldehyde.html

. A 0.5% accelerated hydrogen peroxide demonstrated bactericidal and virucidal activity in 1 minute and mycobactericidal and fungicidal activity in 5 minutes 656. Bactericidal effectiveness and stability of hydrogen peroxide in urine has been demonstrated against a variety of health-care–associated pathogens; organisms with high cellular catalase activity (e.g., S. aureus, S. marcescens, and Proteus mirabilis) required 30–60 minutes of exposure to 0.6% hydrogen peroxide for a 108 reduction in cell counts, whereas organisms with lower catalase activity (e.g., E. coli, Streptococcus species, and Pseudomonas species) required only 15 minutes' exposure
...
Concentrations of hydrogen peroxide from 6% to 25% show promise as chemical sterilants. The product marketed as a sterilant is a premixed, ready-to-use chemical that contains 7.5% hydrogen peroxide and 0.85% phosphoric acid (to maintain a low pH) 69
...
Uses. Commercially available 3% hydrogen peroxide is a stable and effective disinfectant when used on inanimate surfaces. It has been used in concentrations from 3% to 6% for disinfecting soft contact lenses (e.g., 3% for 2–3 hrs)
... etc.
Owen Evans
171 posts
Jul 21, 2016
8:29 PM
This is the third time I have written this today. Every time I do, the post disappears somehow and I can only presume I broke some rules so I checked the rules. I have been civil about my disagreement with statements made in this thread which are wrong and misleading. For the record, here is my source of information in making these statements. Read it for yourself without my commentaries. Let's see if this makes it to the group.

https://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/7_0formaldehyde.html

Last Edited by Owen Evans on Jul 21, 2016 8:30 PM
timeistight
2023 posts
Jul 22, 2016
8:48 AM
@Owen Evans: Your posts were probably deleted by the hosting company's Spam Filter, an uncontrolled, automated process which no one here understands. Don't take it personally.

Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 22, 2016 8:48 AM
JustFuya
930 posts
Jul 22, 2016
9:11 AM
I thought I'd find a quick answer and consensus. (Is 0.5% a typo?) My circle does not include a microbiologist so I'll research and hopefully come up with a solution to share. I'll start with my MD this morning.

@Owen Evans: Thank you for the link. The article states that 3% is adequate for inanimate surfaces which would include the SP20s tho I will have to re-read it to determine the soak time.
mlefree
717 posts
Jul 22, 2016
10:16 AM
I'm with the H2O2 approach but I've taken enough used harmonicas apart to be of the opinion that merely giving one a good H2O2 soak is fine for maintaining a used harmonica once you've mechanically scrubbed its insides. But it won't be sufficient to dissolve and remove all the varied manner of used harp detritus that are commonly trapped in any given unknown harp's innards. I've seen everything from the guaranteed layer upon layer of dried spit to oddball stuff like spider webs, cocoons and dead insects.

I don't put a used harmonica to my mouth until I've taken it apart and given it a good scrub with a soft old toothbrush and a liberal amount of antibacterial dish soap in warm water. Nor do I return a harmonica that I've repaired without doing the same thing again first. Once I've done that I feel that an H2O2 soak would be redundant.

So for me it kind of depends of on whose harmonica it is.

Michelle

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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.

Last Edited by mlefree on Jul 22, 2016 10:20 AM
JustFuya
931 posts
Jul 22, 2016
12:32 PM
The doc said it's tough to spread the serious stuff via harmonica and soap and water will normally do. For the truly phobic I was told that steam kills everything.

I'm still going with the H2O2 after finding the proper concentration and dwell.
nacoran
9161 posts
Jul 22, 2016
5:31 PM
On the topic of harmonica sterilization, this message is brought to you by Bob Barker...

Help control the harmonica population and always remember to have your harmonica spayed or neutered. :)

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Nate
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mlefree
718 posts
Jul 22, 2016
9:44 PM
From the FWIW department...

I learned something from Joe Spiers not long ago when I sent him a vintage Special 20 to "Super Stock" for me. I didn't want to send him a dirty harp so I did my usual Barkeeper's Friend job on the reed plates. This was advice given to me by Joe hisse'f some years back when I asked about refurbishing some '70s-era Marine Bands.

Well, as usual there is the rest of the story. When Joe received the harp he advised me to be prudent about using BKF. It turns out that, and I can't recall the details, certain years when they had poor QC and worn machinery, Hohner produced leaky harps. The patina that my old SP20 had acquired over the years had actually decreased the reed/reed plate clearances. In removing that patina I had made Joe's work harder.

I used to be so proud of my BKF-shiny reed plates. Now I realize that I was unnecessarily vigorous and made them shiny for the sake of making them shiny. I no longer regard BKF-shiny reed plates as a mandatory starting point with a used harmonica. Unless there's enough corrosion to mechanically clog a reed, the area under cover plate screws or the flat side of a draw plate, I am perfectly satisfied with my aforementioned warm soapy water treatment.

As I said, FWIW.

Michelle

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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
hot4blues
8 posts
Jul 25, 2016
5:49 PM
I find what's useful for cleaning and sterilizing harps after breakdown is to soak the (plastic) comb in warm to hot water (not too hot though) with a denture tablet. Let it sit for about fifteen minutes, then wash off with cool water. Let dry, re-assemble, & voila! Ready for action, all done in under an hour.


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