I have a wonderful opportunity to speak with harmonica players of all levels, as I work for Suzuki Music here in the USA as their harmonica repair technician.
Only today, Will Galison called and ordered valves. We don't sell them to the public, but since he is a Rock Star, we are sending him some--but not free, since we are not a charitable organization.
My rant today is about a different customer, who called with what I think is a gapping issue on hole 3 blow. When I mentioned that draw two is the same note, he responded, "Oh, I don't do all that stuff, I play from the heart."
Isn't there a certain obligation for anyone who plays a musical instrument to know where the notes are?
"Isn't there a certain obligation for anyone who plays a musical instrument to know where the notes are?"
Not that I've ever seen.
Since you are in customer service, you are obligated to overlook the inherent dummy syndrome that is so prevalent in the general public. ---------- The Iceman
I think plenty people pick up the harmonica from a point of ignorance and think they play music intuitively. And if they have a good ear...really a good attitude to listening...they can do it. And tell themselves they play from the heart in case they ever feel a bit challenged by not being able to communicate using words to describe what they are doing. Of course, if they were really playing by ear, a person would probably have noticed 2 draw is the same note as 3 blow, so this one seems to be more likely a pretender or a beginner or such. Some of those people who play without any knowledge of musical terms and theory are great players. They can be difficult to play along with if you don't have the time to work out what they are doing, because they can't describe it, they can only demonstrate. I know a fellow is like this with guitar. He only performs his own material and there is no discipline about changes. his songs are good though and a solo performance it's enjoyable. Can be challenging to accompany.
I consider harmonica education to be outreach, and would likely continue it even if a) I no longer worked here or b) I personally became unable to play harmonica. I mean, it's not like I'm God's gift to the harmonica world or anything, I just know what music is. Aren't you required to listen if you are going to play? C'mon, is that really asking too much??
Ya hard to disagree with you Gnarly, though knowing the forum, someone will have this guy's back. So this could be entertaining. Look I'm not saying what level of note knowledge a beginner should have on any instrument, I'm trying to teach my self some guitar and I can't as of now name every note on every string up and down the neck (ya I know I should). Though I wouldn't call Fender about a broken string (Ya I know the analogy ain't perfecvt).
That said, I think its the ignorance coupled with the 'tude that's priceless.
Look, playing music can be confusing when you can't see what you are doing, that makes the ear more necessary.
But knowing which notes are missing, and which note is doubled would seem to me to be required learning.
I tried!
Edit: For the record, 3 blow and 2 draw are the same note, and the missing notes are Fa and La on the bottom, and Ti on the top. That means that the note on draw 6 is missing from the first octave (it's between blow 3 and draw 3) and the note on draw 5 is missing from the first octave (it's between blow 2 and draw 2), also the note on draw 7 is missing from the top octave (it's between draw 10 and blow 10).
There, I feel better now!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jul 06, 2016 3:39 PM
Oh...I was under the impression that if you have a working knowledge of music theory that automically means you play with no feeling. I mean, I've read something to that effect repeatedly in different posts on MBH, so I just assumed it must be true. No????
There are four types of men: He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not He is a fool... shun him He who knows not, and knows that he knows not He is simple...teach him He who knows, and knows not that he knows He is asleep...wake him He who knows, and knows that he knows He is wise...follow him
I consider myself to be the second type, and many here to be the fourth. Even those of us who started out learning patterns, bends, and vibrato without the technical knowledge can teach each other things we have picked up in our world of passionate but ignorant bliss. Some of us can even sound quite good playing along with songs, and at informal jam sessions. This having been said, as we listen to the professional folks found here, it quickly becomes obvious that technical knowledge about the tools and techniques of this world is the essential missing link in our playing. What many of us have done thus far is a great first step. Time for me, and many others, to step up and take the difficult but essential next step of learning the nuts and bolts of music and technique, which calls for formal lessons from a good teacher. Instructional video sets could be an important resource, and suggestion as to the best one for intermediate to advanced intermediate students would be appreciated. After gaining preliminary familiarity with this knowledge from videos, the logical final step seems to be actual face time with as many good teachers as you can afford to fairly compensate, and to try to be in the presence of many advanced players as often as possible. Again, acknowledging my status as the second type of person, please feel free to add to, modify, or rework my plan. I have often thought about doing a video compilation of some of my playing to send to Adam as a precursor to taking formal skype lessons so that he can study what my strengths and weaknesses are and design a lesson plan for the limited time I can afford. Do you think this would be helpful? One practice that has always seemed to be the best course for me is to strive for humility toward all. All of us are simultaneously students and teachers. Those who teach us, learn from us how to be better teachers. Those whom we teach, learn from us how to be better students. Thanks to all for your help and inspiration.
Last Edited by Garlic Breath on Jul 06, 2016 8:30 PM
I won't venture to place myself into a category of the above. I have yet to learn what note is where, do a scale, etc etc. BUT I do pretty well just the same. I do have a lot of experience and a developed instinct about what fits where. I've been inspired by many and learned from a lot. Perhaps what I have is muscle memory and instinct, but it's taken me many places.
And YouTube autosuggested Michael Rubin's video on the same subject, maybe this is easier to follow. Thanks for your time.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jul 06, 2016 10:02 PM
It is hard to think that even if he has decided to play by the sound/pitches of the notes on the harp as opposed to learning the names of the notes on the harp (or do-re-mi, or 1-2-3) that he would not have noticed that two of the sounds (draw 2 and blow 3) are the same note. A dedicated ear player who disdains theory would still hear THAT!
Perhaps a better label would be "willfully oblivious?"
My most important question, given his approach and apparent disinclination to learn anything about music and harp other than playing by feel, is
"CAN HE PLAY???"
Inquiring minds want to know... ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 06, 2016 10:11 PM
Yes, he insisted on playing to demonstrate the issue with his harmonica. He sounded fine . . . Since the issue was with blow three, I wanted him to try both holes playing the same note to get his vocal resonance to reinforce the note, just in case it was technique. I don't have much harmonica work coming in at Suzuki, so I am actually glad to have a harp to work on, but I always prefer a player to solve his own problems, for obvious reasons.
Gnarly I feel the same way about folks who refuse to fix ootb problems with their harps. Infact ive gotten the same response when suggesting someone regapp a reed to fix a certain issue.
I don't know what's wrong with some folks. There seems to be some misnomer floating around out there that.... "Heart is all you need". What ever happened to "Knowledge is Power." ???
God Bless Em.
But Im going to stick with "cheating" lol ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jul 07, 2016 2:22 AM
Sorry to have been so philosophical, and certainly didn't want to come across as an ass kisser, but the question certainly did remind me of the weak area of my harp skills. I guess what is really important, is to find your "sweet spot", where relaxed expressiveness is guided by some formal knowledge of music theory, and at least basic knowledge of the mechanics of the instrument. To be able to know each note of every key harp would be cool, but most likely will take a back seat to sounding good in the near term. I'm guessing that most of the old blues harp legends knew little about the technical aspects of music, but at least knew that 2 draw and 3 blow were the same. One of the big differences between them and modern players, is that their social disadvantages and income strata did not allow them access to higher levels of education. Here we go with another philosophical quote: "The only thing more ignorant than someone who can't read is someone who can and doesn't". Back in the seventies it was enough if my "ignorant" imitation of greater players made me sound enough like a musician for the young ladies to take notice. If I left with her, a belly full of free beer, and twenty bucks in my pocket life was good! Since my wife of 32 years compassionately rescued me from the ravages of such horrors (or is it whores), and I've long been in the steady income stream of a consistent factory job, it would be "ignorant" to not use the time and money in seeking the knowledge, wisdom, and kinship of the modern players whom I try to imitate. The advent of free instruction like the videos Gnarly posted has already taken my playing to a much higher level than it would ever have gone to without. Again, thanks to all. Keep it coming!
Last Edited by Garlic Breath on Jul 07, 2016 5:34 AM
@Goldbrick -- I am in absolute 100% agreement with your last post here and then so many harp players have the freaking nerve questioning why those who play other instruments often look at them as being the freaking dumbest musicians on the bandstand and that customer Gnarly refers to is an absolute classic example of that.
Waht that customer is saying is he just picks it up and plays by ear and is, and you can diss me all you want about this and I'm NOT backing down from this, thinks he's always gonna be able to get by on just the usual harp player's "blissful ignorance" to get by and once they get surrounded by musicians who know their stuff cold, including some pro harp players, if they get called out on this, they think of them as nothing but a bunch of haters and total a**holes, and he's unwilling to face to the truth.
Blissful ignorance only gets you so far, and too often those who have that philosophy will mistakenly think that having even a bare bones working knowledge of theory will harm them musically, but I know for a FACT that is so NOT true at all. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Just to be fair, this player is not a professional, and is entitled to do what is in his heart. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But sooner or later, you share your music with others (almost always--not always) and at that point, you have a certain responsibility. I have a thing I say, "listen twice as hard as you play", I recently heard it stated as, "God gave you two ears and one mouth." I may be sharing music where it is unwanted (that Spanish Tuning thing), so please forgive me if some of that is unlistenable, I truly understand that not everybody likes everything--I just want folks to know stuff, and dislike running from the truth. It gets to be a habit!
"..."Once, he was a bass player in a band I was in who didn't know the names of his strings."
I have named cars and bicycles but I never thought of naming my guitar strings! I think I'll name them Eddie, Albert, Don, Gladys, Betty and Ethyl."
Maybe you've stumbled onto something... he didn't seem to be on a first name basis with any of them! ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
"But sooner or later, you share your music with others (almost always--not always) and at that point, you have a certain responsibility."
Huh? Why? Responsibility to whom? According to whom? Is this a law? If you're not a pro who is performing in front of paying customers (and you say he's not) then there's zero responsibility
I've no dog in this fight, and could not care less about what Person A knows or Person B doesn't know. That their business and/or their burden . . . nobody else's.
I'm merely not a fan of all-encompassing statements
Last Edited by Rontana on Jul 07, 2016 1:39 PM
I believe its one’s right to be blissfully ignorant and toot away on your harp, as an amateur, all you want…if you can play well with others and people enjoy your music, great. Or maybe you’re just amusing yourself. But when you are asking for assistance/guidance/help, and basically saying, “my harmonica is broken, hey, can you fix it?” and dismiss that assistance/attempt at diagnosis with “Nah, I play from the heart”, then I think you deserve some sh*t. If I were in this guy’s position, a better response would have been, “Oh. draw 2 and blow 3 are the same note? I didn’t know that, cool!” or “I had no idea D2 and B3 are the same note, excuse my ignorance, let me play ‘em for you. I still think there’s something wrong with blow 3. Let’s find out”. Why are harmonica players so defensive and weird about this stuff?
One problem is a lot of musicians do not take the harp player seriously. So guys are free to hack away st the instrument.
I am just an adequate harp player- it is my third instrument and my least favorite I know my limitations and have played with some pretty good guys on studio sessions-why? i can play clean notes, scales and chords and know how to fit in with other instruments
There is a pretty good bass player I run into often who always wants me to show him something to imrove his harp playing ( which is your basic wail over everything)
I suggested maybe he should try playing softly and cleanly and picking out a tasteful bass line . His response-" oh, you just dont wanna teach me anything" .
What can you say to a fuktard??? He is not the only one with that attitude
Interesting phenomenon. It is remarkably common for harmonica players in general to be resistant if not outright hostile to any attempt to explain or discuss music theory even if the information being presented is helpful and pragmatic. Go figure...
When I see those videos of folks like Adam Gusso, Aki Kumar, Dave Barrett, Gary Smith, and Ronnie Shellist sharing the stage and trading solos I want to be around them, learn from them, and maybe some day see them looking on approvingly as I play a solo. The only way that ever has any chance of happening is if they see me as a friendly, humble, willing to learn student, who is well on his way, and on the right track. I will gladly humble myself before these masters in order to be their friend and student, because they know things I want to know. Maybe I'll never learn all of it, but by doing the best I can to follow in their footsteps, my intuitive playing skills will become more organized and please not just the uninformed, but also the other musicians I would love to have playing along with me. However, if this goal is not shared by someone else, that's fine. I will do my best to be courteous and respectful to them as well. Even the guy in lederhosen playing German folk songs is my harmonica brother. Who am I to perceive myself as better than him, no matter what my playing or knowledge level. Is he a nice, friendly guy? GREAT! me and old Hans can enjoy a beer together and learn from each other. "Those who circle the mountain trying to bring others to their path, are no longer climbing". As long as I'm once again waxing philosophical, here's one from my favorite philosopher: "If at first you don't succeed...keep on sucking till you do succeed".- Jerome Horowitz a.k.a. Curly Howard from the Three Stooges.
Gnarly, I have to tell you true. I can understand how an average Joe harmonica player might develop or appear to have a learning block under your tutelage. I am not being critical here because I do so admire your comfort with music theory. I'm just saying that someone lacking that sort of insight might be overwhelmed when confronted with it.
Let me speak strictly from my perspective. I don't want to appear to be critical of your presentation, only to offer an explanation about why I and someone else might have a hard time digesting it and how that might give rise to a misunderstanding between you and your student.
Somehow, because the related music theory comes so naturally to you, when you go to teach a concept, you seem to gravitate to teaching it through the lense of your knowledge of chords and the language used to describe it.
It's great that you are able to parse music-related issues with that foundation at your disposal. I'm quite envious. But since I am a music theory ignoramus sometimes it gets in the way of my ability to grasp the underlying point that you are trying to get across my thick skull. You assume a lot for a dummy like me. I cannot think in terms of chords and that presents a barrier for me in trying to decipher what you are saying. For example, in this video you go immediately into blow and draw chords even though that isn't really the thrust of the video (or is it?). And, even though your chart is showing them it's a minute into your presentation before you mention scale degrees and then it's only kind of in passing. You appear to talk about Roman numerals chord notation interchangeably with Arabic numeral scale degree notation which is what your chart shows. Playing the Devils advocate I can see how the unitiated might view music theory as some sort of a mystifying shell game.
Both you and Michael have such amazing foundations of music theory. I admit that I am so far on the other end of the spectrum that also have difficulty learning from him, too. It seems to take Michael three videos to explain scale degrees on a harmonica. I'm afraid that about 5 minutes into the first one my eyes glaze over and I start daydreaming.
I want to be clear. This is ~my~ problem, not yours or Michael's! I only "open my Kimono" and mention my own weakness here as a possible explanation of this student's behavior. Apparently he can blow a little. I ~know~ I can. Maybe there's just a communication gap between you? Maybe he has as much trouble understanding your viewpoint as you do his?
It's a possibility anyway. I think you would agree that "good" notes predated music theory and that there is more than one path to playing the right note at the right time. I also believe you would agree that we all aspire to being able to do that without thinking about it. I would just point out that the existence of professional complete ear harmonica players like most all the historical greats as well as current Masters like Tom Ball stand as counterexamples to the extension of your assertion, which would of course be that ignorance of music theory equals poor playing.
In any event, thanks for continuing to try to get this stuff through thick heads like mine and please accept this message in the constructive spirit with which it was intended. Believe me when I say that I don't like admitting in public what an idiot I am unless there's a very good reason. 8^)
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Similarly, I had a guy regularly say that he had his own style and didn't want to listen to any other influences. Cool. I thought, but being able to play individual notes probably would have added something to his style. I call ignorant not knowing something you should know. If you can play reasonably well then I think you should at least notice that 2 draw and 3 blow are the same note. Ignorant? A little. Theory: it sure doesn't help that diatonic has such a wacky layout. It's not even diatonic and 1/3 of the notes weren't even supposed to be there (bends). In my experience knowing the circle is REALLY helpful. When someone on the stand says 2 (much less 4) and you don't have any idea what that means...? I do not dig that so I fixed it.
Here's an old post from the Harp-L forum that is well worth reading:
Stigma Of The Harmonica ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
There are many harmonica players who fool around and can play a 12 bar blues competently by ear without being able to communicate how they do it. They don't think about the notes, they just have figured out how to get sounds. Some can be pretty skilled without being able to describe it in words. Some take it farther and learn how to choose the key of harp that would work for them on a song. Some learn how to play several positions. Some take it a lot farther.
There is room in this world for amateur musical dabblers who gain pleasure from this pastime. It does not mean they are ready to play in a band. Ability and motivation is a continuum, and not everyone takes their ability and motivation as far as they might.
There are many guitar players who learn the forms for a few chords and can play simple blues or rock or country or folk progressions. Some use a capo, some learn how to play in many different keys without one. Some learn the specific notes in the chords, find other ways to play the same chord, and find out about 7th chords and suspended chords and minor chords, augmented chords, and diminished chords. Some learn to play lead lines, and some learn different scales to play lead.
There is room in this world for amateur musical dabblers who gain pleasure from this pastime. It does not mean they are ready to play in a band. Ability and motivation is in a continuum.
I am surprised that Gnarly's client didn't realize that draw 2 and blow 3 were the same note, but I have no problem with his desire to remain a dabbler with self imposed limitations based on a lack of knowledge.
If someone gets joy from playing music on harmonica (or guitar or whatever) within his limitations, that is OK with me. ----------
One of the first of Adam's videos I watched touched on air management. (That was a big issue for me as an asthmatic and a former baritone player). He demonstrated how to let a little air out when you had too much in your lungs and touched on the 2/3 hole notes as a way to sneak more air in or out depending on what you need.
I know some people think that learning theory takes away creativity. I can see how if you practice exactly the same way as someone else it will tend to give you some similarities in your playing, but learning the names of the holes so you can tell another musician what note you are playing really isn't structural. It's not going to change what notes you end up playing. I can see how learning scales could actually shape how you play, but the names of notes? I don't see it.
Now, that said, I had a terrible experience when I was learning baritone. If there was such a thing as 'criminally boring' my teacher would have been serving a life sentence. We were learning to play things by rote from the sheet music but weren't learning anything about creating music. We might as well have been player pianos. When I took up harmonica I made a decision that I was just going to experiment for a while without any formal learning until I could pick things out by ear. I'm a little ADD'ish, and I figured that would fit my learning style more. I had the advantage of having taken a little music theory in school so I knew, at least conceptually, the difference between different types of scales. I knew that they were made up of patterns of steps and half-steps and I knew what diminished, major, minor and augmented chords were and things like that. In theory. If you asked me if three specific notes where major or minor I could tell you by ear, but if you just gave me the letters I'd have to look at a keyboard to count it out.
I think it's useful to learn what notes to avoid if you are playing in a different position. You can do that systematically by learning your scales, or you can learn to do it by ear. Different strokes for different folks. I've memorized the circle of fifths so I can count positions (slowly) in my head. My next step is I want to learn to identify a key just by someone telling me the notes or chords in it on the fly. I was playing with a guitar player the other day who didn't know keys, just chords. I was able to figure out keys by asking him what chord he resolved on. It took a little longer. I'm at the point where I use theory to figure out which harmonica I want to have for the song and then what notes to play mostly by ear.
Without a little theory though, I would have been lost playing with that guitar player the other day. Theory is the language of music. If you are lucky enough to only ever play with people who can translate for you (and who don't mind translating for you) that's fine, but just a little bit of pidgin fluency opens up a ton of playing opportunities. But, if you're ADD is bad enough that it makes it not fun to learn even that and you end up just throwing your harps in a drawer and not playing at all because you get frustrated, then maybe it's just better to play by heart.
I think maybe one way to tackle teaching it would be to explain the advantages of each step.
Learning the circle of fifths=not needing position charts.
Learning chord progressions=being able to play along to songs you don't know
Learning 1st position=being able to play most folk.
Learning 2nd position=being able to play most blues.
Learning 3rd/5th=giving you some minor scales
Knowing that songs usually resolve on the I chord=you can ask someone what chord the song ends on and figure out the key.
Knowing the names (or at least the relative scale degrees) of the notes on your harmonica= being able to work parts out with guitar players and other musicians. (Also useful when the guitar player is out of tune. It saves time when you can play them an E to tune up to rather than them figuring out where they put their tuner!)
Knowing rhythms and chord progressions and keys=being able to call out a song and have people follow along
You don't need all of them when you are starting out, and there are lots more, but just learn one here and one there and it will open up all sorts of opportunities.
This whole thread has been great food for thought, and many good points have been made. Learning is a fascinating topic which can be perceived in terms of science and personal experience. Speaking of less than optimal music teachers. I expressed a desire to learn piano, so my mom set me up with lessons from the mother superior of my Catholic grade school. Talk about nervous, basement music room of an old gothic style school building, and a scary , authoritarian sister of Saint Joseph with everything covered except her face and hands. Wish I'd had a character like Curtis from "The Blues Brothers" to turn me onto "cool music", in a relaxed setting. No interest in approaching it from a perspective of what music motivated me to want to learn, just cookie cutter rote learning. However, the few basic details about written music, and the pattern of the notes on the keyboard that did stick, at least opened the door to appreciating the detailed system that makes it all work. That's probably why the second video, using the keyboard to illustrate the lesson, appealed to me more. I've also been curious about the complexities of how different individuals experience music due to the unique differences in how each person's brain hemispheres process it. I found a great article which really details it out. If you're like me you'll find it interesting up to the point where your brain explodes from how detailed it can get. Basically, each of us is a unique individual when it comes to music, and it can be both fun and frustrating to figure out how to bring out the best in each individual. As a martial arts instructor I've seen students who pick things up so fast that the methodical way of solidifying simple basics first almost bores them into quitting. Others find even the simple basic drills frustrating to get right, and this makes them think about quitting. Boring scales, boring punches...same thing. What I try to do is feed them little examples of how this seemingly boring and simple stuff will later become the bedrock of all that cool impressive stuff. Just enough to inspire, but not so much as to overwhelm. One thing I always make sure to do is reassure them that I've made all the same mistakes they're making, and felt just as dumb and uncoordinated. The goal is not to make them fit the mold of a technical master, but rather to set them on their unique individual path based upon well honed principals of technique. I'm no Adam Gusso, and I'm no Sonny Terry...I'm just me. Both of them have things that inspire me. Left brain technical understanding, in a unique mix with right brain creativity.
http://jackhdavid.thehouseofdavid.com/papers/brain.html
Last Edited by Garlic Breath on Jul 08, 2016 7:45 PM
to me "from the heart" means ignorant if you sound like ass.
if play from the heart and you sound good then I don't care what you know or don't know, though you may not be able to hang on the bandstand if you don't know..
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Ignorance about music theory and/or harp construction is pretty insignificant, albeit amusing, when compared to the ignorance that brought us Brexit, Trump and the gun mania that is literally killing our country.
Hello all-- Great responses, and I am glad my post is being given the consideration I believe it deserves. It's worth noting that this person (about whom I am venting) is not my student, just a guy who bought a Suzuki and needs it gapped (hey, I'm not going to complain about that, I get paid to work on harmonicas--if he doesn't want to do that, this gives me an opportunity to play his harmonica!) So it's not like I have a right to demand that he pay attention to what notes are on the instrument, it's just that music means a lot to me and I am astounded that he doesn't seem to care what the notes "mean". To me, it's a constant source of entertainment!
