most of the time i spend with a harmonica, is just playing along with a classic recording. you do not need an amp, a public address system, a band or an audience. it is a good idea to record yourself.
i agree, i was too loud. i could tell while i was recording. at one point i turned away from the mic to try and minimize the volume. not even that seemed to work.
this is also a common problem when playing live.
it is ok to make mistakes, but you need to be willing to learn from them.
this forum is a great resource, where else can you post a video and get feedback from your peers? or to take that even further....
we even have many of the top one percent of the harp world right here, who freely share their knowledge.
not too many places in the world where that happens. you cannot call kobe bryant and ask him to come by to help you on your free throws, or tiger woods to help you sink a putt.
i would like to encourage everyone to post a video of them playing along with a recording.
it would be great to hear others contribute to this thread. perhaps some of the top one percent could show us how it is done. at one time this is how you learned how to play harmonica. there were no schools or online lessons like today. you had to fend for yourself.
On the topic of volume, that's one of the reasons I like tracked recording. It's not often practical though when you are standing out by your truck. As soon as you have sound coming from two points heading to a third point to be recorded it becomes a science to get it right. It can sound perfect where you are standing and be a mess where the audience is.
(That said, you can make an argument that there are two different ways to play a piece when you are showcasing an instrument. You can play it to make it the best piece of blended music or you can play it to highlight the instrument. If you want feedback on how you are playing a particular part it can actually be helpful to have it be a little louder than the backing.)
I enjoyed that 1847. Most of my playing practice is acoustic too. Sometimes playing along with a classic track. Sometimes just the harp and sometimes the harp and my voice, without any backing music. I very rarely plug into an amp and play these days.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jul 04, 2016 12:27 PM
@1847. You're so right about this forum. You got great feedback from some experienced players from volume level to note delivery. Here's some feed back from a less experienced player.... Man, you look like you're having fun!!!
thanks everyone for listening and especially for all comments. yes i hit some bad notes, heck right out of the gate, i wasn't going to upload the video but after thinking about it i realized why not? i have a question for you larry..... what do you suggest to break out of pattern playing? are there exercises or other methods you would recommend? what I liked about my playing...... it sounded like me...... to copy note for note what was on the recording is one way to skin a cat, and i have done my share of that. i have tremendous respect for anyone that can do that. but i cannot do that... parts of it yes, but the entire track, i just do not have the attention span LOL. thanks again.... 47
If you've approached improv by learning patterns and are a pattern player, it will take a lot of unlearning and redoing to break this habit.
When you give up pattern playing, it is easier to find a personal and original musical voice.
Step one is to leave the velocity playing you've created with patterns behind.
Step two is to understand music and theory enough that you can start to make note choices based on the underlying chordal structures.
Step three is to start to rebuild your approach slowly - speed comes eventually in good time and is never the goal, but is a nice benefit.
This is a basic outline. Anything in more detail can be obtained by working with a competent teacher.
I have exercises and concepts, but these work best when tailored to the individual student. In other words, one size does not fit all.
If you are willing to take the time to reeducate yourself along these lines, the rewards are amazing - no more plateau or flat line in your progress along with a feeling of being a true creator.
Now, it is nice to have a handful of "speed patterns" that one can pull out every once in a while just to show that you can do speed, but a greater understanding of how each and every note relates to the underlying harmony will go a long way in making you into an amazing player. ---------- The Iceman
Step two is to understand music and theory enough that you can start to make note choices based on the underlying chordal structures.
wouldn't those notes be contained in the patterns? for example. if the guitar was playing a G7 then you could play the root 3 rd 5 th and flat 7 notes add a flat 5 and a flat 3rd perhaps a 2 nd or a 6 th note. essentially the notes to the chords them self's and the corresponding scale tones? i am intrigued thanks again. ----------
In my experience, it is very easy to fool yourself about how well you are doing if you just play along with a recording. I thought I could play John Mayall's "Room To Move" after my first month of playing just by listening to myself while I played.
I think everyone would agree about the benefits of recording your playing, even when playing along with another recording. But it's still quite easy to overlook all manner of mistakes when you listen to a recording of yourself playing along in the mix. It's only when you record yourself on a separate track that you can fully isolate your playing from the music you are playing along with.
If you record yourself on a separate track you can fade the original recording in and out and hear how ~you~ really sound. This is easy to do with the free multi-track recording and processing software program Audacity or any number of other similar programs like Pro Tools.
When you listen to yourself on an isolated track your warts cannot be obscured by the professionals on the recording. It's scary and revealing but a better way to learn when playing along with a recording.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
1847 - yes, many times those notes are contained within the patterns. However, most pattern players do not make the connection between the notes they play in their pattern and how they really relate to that underlying chord structure. They are just happy to have something fast to play that seems to work a lot of the time.
To my ears, I can clearly tell a pattern player from someone more interested in their understanding of music. I'm not making a blanket statement regarding what is right/wrong, just what I hear in regards to what interests and excites me. Some are excited to hear a player who spent hours woodshedding a pattern and can play it at high velocity. That's just not me.
Your velocity patterns sound pretty good most of the time. It's just those instances where the notes don't really reflect underlying chords that stick out to me as pure pattern and not so much musicality.
(Here's an example - most would agree that Stephen Stills is a pretty darn good musician. However, I am bothered by one small note in his guitar line between verses of "For What It's Worth" after the third verse at 1:51 seconds. Stephen plays a minor third over the IV chord major. Now, I know this is just a small mistake, but it still bugs me when I hear it, as it is an inappropriate note over the underlying chord, and slightly diminishes my enjoyment of his playing. I'm sure most people never even notice it, but the musician in me does. I've since forgiven him - ha - as I've never heard another awkward note in his playing).
Jinx - I've found that creativity can be taught/encouraged for most students. Then again, I seem to be a somewhat unorthodox teacher and have gotten surprising results from many students, so I wouldn't place myself within the norm in regards to concepts like this.
hvyj - in purely dealing with words/definitions, I suppose one could label scales as patterns. I look at scales as a starting point for good note choices, examine each one for it's color/weight/gravitational pull and how they relate to the underlying chord. In teaching scales, I always try to encourage hearing them as a musical line and have students play them as such (have discussed playing scales to the 9th degree and back in many previous posts here). So, instead of mindlessly playing a scale up and down as a pattern, it becomes something more musical. I guess it is the mindlessness in repetition that kinda bothers me. I encourage mindfulness and always enjoy a student who plays them out of intent in the moment rather than some kind of auto pilot regurgitation.
This is just how I approach, teach and enjoy creating music. It's not for everyone, so no attacking just because it may not be for you. There is enough room in this world for everyone's individual approach. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 06, 2016 6:31 AM
Personally, I was at a point (in a rut?) not long ago where I felt my soloing and my playing in general was too scale bound. Now I've been working on breaking out of that by throwing in more non scale chord tones and generally constructing lines and developing solos utilizing lines and repitiion/variation thereof.
FWIW, I found that playing as a sideman in R&B or soul music contexts was a great catalyst for this because I wound up more often than not having to work off the major pentatonic scale. This forces me to use non scale tones (especially the 4) to develop ideas and this scale generates much more melodic lines that take my playing to a whole different place. Then, in a blues context, I am now able to use some of that major pentatonic melodic stuff as passing riffs or connectors that give my blues playing more varrety and musicality. The point is that I had to break out of using scales as a pattern or template for everything.
FWIW, playing over recordings is useful for a lot of things, but IMHO not that useful for developing soloing skills. To solo effectively and carry the ensemble with you as you take the tune to a different place and back again you need to understand how the musicians (assuming they know what they are doing) will react to certain things that you do and how to place notes in relation to what the drummer is laying down so the band can stay tight while you fly around. These things are based on interaction and cannot be learned from playing with recordings--or playing with musicans who are self absorbed or oblivious to the big picture being painted by the music being played. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jul 06, 2016 7:22 AM
this turned out to be a good discussion, thanks everyone for the replies. it has been kind of dead around here for some time.
"It's just those instances where the notes don't really reflect underlying chords that stick out to me as pure pattern and not so much musicality"
if you mean the part we he sings, you can't spend what you ain't got........ yes there is a string of bad notes there. very painful. i chose to leave the mistakes in, there are other places where i just missed a note completely. I always "try" to play notes that fit. there are times where you can make a mistake and when you play it back you say to yourself... "listen to that" you get out on a limb fall off the tree and end up on your feet somehow..... yeah i meant to do that LOL.
i know enough theory to give myself a headache .. i would not think while playing i'll play a flat 3rd here and hold it for the 4 chord and it is now a flat seven then release it on the 5 chord to a major 3rd. ....do people actually do that?
also when you talk of re-learning the instrument are you proposing adding all the missing chromatic notes?
My comments are coming from a real pro musician view point. Playing amazing music at all times (or mostly all times) is the goal.
I understand that many here are not interested in that level, being more for fun than anything else. That's ok, too, and if it is the case, just ignore my comments.
Knowing enough music theory to give oneself a headache is missing the point. Music theory is a road that opens up a lot of creative pathways as well as deepening one's appreciation of this art form. It is not something to be stressed over.
Knowing theory opens one up for making better note choices. One doesn't really think about it as you described above when playing.
Once theory is absorbed, it works quietly in the background without much conscious thought. Like learning to downhill ski....lots to think about while absorbing all the nuances and details, but once you are flying down the hill, you have neither the time nor inclination to think so much - just enjoy the ride.
Not so much relearning the instrument as revamping your approach to the instrument.
Pattern players are bound up in their understanding. Once you start to play that first note of a pattern, it is a forgone conclusion where you will end up and how you get there.
Breaking free of this constraint gives many more choices that can change fluidly in the moment depending on what is happening around you in real time. One note will lead to just that next note and not to a pre-programmed series of notes.
All notes are available to be used at any time - some work more effectively than others and a few may just sound awful in a given situation. Theory affords you a type of road map of choices as you move forward through the progression, so it's not really about missing or chromatic notes at all.
It's all about them choices. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 06, 2016 11:00 AM
Well, I do. Not all the time and for different reasons at different times.
Now unless one has good rythym and good sense of groove that sort of thing can sound pretty mechanical. And players with really refined ears will play stuff like that because they just hear it that way without thinking about it or conceptualizing it. My ear has never been that good. My sense of rhythm is pretty decent, but I learned theory largely to help me with note selection. There is a big difference between not playing any bad notes and playing right notes.
Another reason to do it is to be idiomatically correct when you play in different styles. For example, it can be characteristic of spirituals to lean on the 6. If you are playing "Folsum Prison Blues" blues scale will work, but to be idiomatically correct, you should play major pentatonic. These are deliberate and conceptually driven choices.
Another reason to do it is to be safe. I can get over my head on jazz material so in that sort of situation it helps to know what notes are safe choices in certain parts of the progression if you are not laying out completely. Also, aesthetically you may choose to play major blues scale over a certain chord and regular blues scale over the next change purely for artistic reasons.
You can also look at some of this stuff in more than one way. For example, a young formally trained sax player (with very good ears) once told he liked how I would go to the relative minor on R&B material. Well, I wasn't going to the relative minor, I was playing major pentatonic. BUT, if you start the major pentatonic scale on the 6th degree it generates the minor pentatonic scale of the relative minor key ( same notes) and I would often start phrases from the 6 especially on the IV chord. The point is what I was playing made musical sense which is, after all, the overriding objective. But there is more than one way to label or conceptualze what I was doing.
Btw, a very useful and largely overlooked way to do this on harmonica is by utilizing extension tones.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jul 06, 2016 11:51 AM
JInx, I disagree. It's not easy to teach creativity. Maybe it's more something your nourish?
I had a creative writing teacher who was very good at teaching creativity. Some of the exercises seemed odd at first- pulling words out of a bag of words and making a poem seems more mechanical than creative, but it sort of rewires your brain to think that way. Eventually you don't need the bag and the choices become creative and the quality improves.
I think most people have natural creativity. It's certainly easier to crush it than to teach it though.
hvyj makes a good point about more than one way to label musically.
First came the notes. Afterwards comes the theory to try to explain why it sounds the way it does.
The visual I use for hvyj's point is as follows -
Imagine that pentatonic scale's 5 individual notes attached to a mobile (a decorative structure that is suspended).
Now, you can look up at it from directly below and describe what you see and the relationship of each note to each other.
You can then climb above and look directly down on it and describe what you see.
Next you can stand to the left of it, gaze over and describe what you see.
Each description will be different because of the perspective of the observer - however, the actual notes and their relationship to each other is always the same.
Which is the correct description?
They all are.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 06, 2016 12:06 PM
"as well, in 2nd position, watch out for that 7 hole inhale over the IV chord"
i wonder how many people realize the importance of what is being said here?
i am not even sure how many times i have hit that note by mistake. i am pretty sure i did it all the time at one point, so it is ingrained to a certain degree. when you learn something that is a mistake, it is very hard to overcome. but if you are not aware that this is an issue, it cannot be fixed. what larry is explaining here is one of the most important lesson you will ever learn. i suspect that just about everyone will gloss over what is being taught here, but i will not..... this is a game changer. if i am the only one here to learn from this then so be it..... hopefully at least one or two people here are paying attention. i almost dismissed this thinking i only did this on occasion and it is just a small mistake, boy was i wrong. you cannot make the same mistake over and over and over and expect to improve. i would like to give a genuine heart felt thank you for pointing that out.
most blues songs use dominant seventh chords. i know quite a few folk or pop songs that use a major 7th
Neil young.... L A... uptight, city in the smog... city in the smog.. don't you wish you could be here too? the beatles something in the way she moves.
but i am drawing a blank on blues songs that do..... maybe etta james or sam cooke?
We were indeed inferring blues (seeing as how this is a blues chat list), but we didn't specifically state this fact.
Komuso is kind of a Winslow in regards to pointing out every discrepancy in postings (especially mine), keeping his eye out for accuracy in all things with google as his resource.
That's ok.
He is correct in a total technical sense regarding the IV chord, but the usual way to indicate the type of IV chord that allows 7 hole inhale is IV Maj7 as opposed to just IV.
So, if you are focused on the blues progression I, IV, V, the Maj7 doesn't occur in any of these.
I also do not know of any typical blues tunes with a IV Maj7, but perhaps someone can google and come up with a few titles for us.
To those of you whose ears are not readily hearing the sound of a Maj7 chord, go listen to "Color My World" by Chicago. It starts out with an arpeggiated Maj 7 chord and is a great way to get this sound in your ear.
oh, btw, thanks for the important lesson kudos.
I try to post golden nuggets and am quite aware that they fly right by 98% of the readers here. I'm just glad for the 2% that really get it. ---------- The Iceman
Nice condescension fest. Very entertaining. I'm sure Stephen Stills is breathing a sigh of relief that he has been forgiven, if only it had happened before his induction, er both of them, into the R & R Hall of Fame. He could have delivered his acceptance speeches with a clear conscience.
if you were stuck at the Detroit airport headed to Atlanta and it is minus 5 degrees outside when you flight gets cancelled,and that song comes on the radio..... it may just change your perspective.
I know it's good to know which notes not to hit. I'd like to see someone do a video on what to do once you've already made that mistake. I know sometimes I hit the wrong note by accident, and the longer I've been playing the better I've gotten at 'fixing' it by hitting another note that makes the mistake sound intentional. I do it sort of automatically. I don't recall ever seeing anyone sit down and explain the music theory involved in fixing mistakes. I know it would involve the use of passing notes a bit or modulating positions, and I know sometimes it involves fixing the beat. When I miss a beat I find that if I can get back on the main groove in a certain way I can make it sound like I was syncopating not messing up. I can't really articulate how I'm doing it though.
From a creative standpoint, sometimes hitting the 'wrong' notes actually can make a piece stand out, as long as you then make it sound 'right'.
A "wrong" note can be made to sound "right" through force of will.
If you don't understand that, the next best thing to understand is that if the note you are playing sounds "wrong", it is always just 1/2 step away from one that will sound "right".
Sometimes if you play that "wrong" note a second time, it will sound more "right" - so solution may be as simple as repetition. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 08, 2016 3:00 PM
I think the fact that we are able to discuss this is important. usually people get their feelings hurt if you point out they played a wrong note. just stick your head in the sand and all your problems will magically disappear.
i have to disagree that playing the same wrong note makes anything sound better.
2 wrongs do not make a right. in my opinion, it is the biggest mistake you can make. ---------- .
Here is my favorite example of playing the same "wrong" note twice making it sound more "right" (as well as tremendous force of will).
At exactly 4:24, the note Miles plays is the flatted 9th after establishing in the listeners' ear a tonality based on a dominant seventh chord (playing around with major/minor 3rd, something he was really starting to explore at this time).
Check it out...tell me it doesn't sound more "right" after he repeats it. ---------- The Iceman
i just figured out by trial and error how to record over a backing track in audacity. one feature is you can adjust the volume of the overdub. so if the harmonica part is too loud, it is because it is intentional. lol
until now, all my recording methods have been primitive. this looks promising. perhaps there is away to integrate the new blue dadi software in to audacity?
I really like this quote that I have seen attributed to Miles Davis:
"If you hit a wrong note, it's the next note that you play that determines if its's good or bad."
I actually used the concept tonight at an open mike. My mind blanked and I opened the song with the wrong phrase, but morphed it to where I wanted it to go and few, if any, in the audience noticed. I was playing unaccompanied so I had a bit more leeway than I might have if there were specific changes to follow.
I have found the concept also applies to sparing in martial arts. If you screw up, what you do next will determine if it was wrong or right. Davis was a boxer so I am sure he noticed the similarity between sparing in the ring and improvising on the stage.
If I wanted to point out your "every discrepancy" I would have done it directly after your original posting.
Which I didn't. For a number of reasons, chiefly because I couldn't be bothered.
However, your passive aggressive slagging of me, Winslow, and 98% of the forum readers is a little weird...though I'm honored to be included in such fine company!
Anyways...
1847 made a comment regarding your 7 draw advice and I added a simple fact based musical clarification as a guitar player of 30+ years, Music Masters graduate, and developer of a Harmonica educational app (rough diamond as it still may be).
I didn't need google thanks, but I'll remember that for next time I'm stuck on something.
There are many players on this "blues chat list" who play harmonica in other genres in addition to blues & blues mashups that do include maj7, M7, 7+, etc. and that is to who I was speaking.
Not you. *sad trombone sound*
ps:
If only 2% of people can absorb your "golden nuggets" then that's usually indicative about how you're saying it, not what you're saying. I also wouldn't say it's 2% because "it takes a certain experience level to understand my special brand of knowledge" either. I honestly haven't heard you say anything yet that hasn't been said by many other people, and usually a lot better and more direct.
Music and music education is a well studied field, and advances all the time. Maybe you should study it a little more if you want to increase your traction and messaging resonance beyond a 2% hit rate, instead of basking in the glorious eternal sunshine of your own mind. (that wasn't passive aggressive btw;-)
Now, how about leaving those personal insults for posting on your own chat list and abide by the forum rules here....
btw, Honkin', if you took my little bit o' Stephen Stills comment as seriously as it reads in your posting, you totally missed the spirit in which it was written. No worries, though.
Feels like you and ol' Paul have a personality conflict with me. Happens all the time between people. Hopefully one day youse will realize that personality conflicts don't amount to a hill o' beans in this crazy mixed up world. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 09, 2016 5:07 PM
Larry, moving to the 'right' note, which will probably be a half note away... yes, but I think there is more to it than that. I know with chords there are certain chords that follow well after other chords, which you build progressions out of. Repeating a wrong note tricks the listener to think 'hey, he meant to do that' but I think there is more you can do to. It's fine to modulate. There are certain note progressions that, like chord progressions just sort of sound right (large leaps sound weird, for instance, and you end up with your song sounding like the Star Trek theme). So sometimes, I think, when you hit a wrong note you have to create a mini-riff around that note, sort of a flourish, that resolves back to where you are hitting 'right' notes again, but that works on its own.
Say you are hitting the last note of the song- worst time to screw up-
I'm not sure I can write an example on harmonica, so imagine a piano instead. You are in C minor, and you go to end the song with a nice C minor chord, only instead of C Eb G you screw up and hit C E G. The quick way to fix it is to move your stubby finger over to the Eb as quick as you can, but in my head (my fingers are very stubby) I think I'd maybe do a little run with E G E G / C Eb G or something like that.
I guess it's not even just a question about what to do when you mess up but how to break the rules creatively to make your music interesting. I know how to do that with writing. I once got a headline greenlit over on Fark with a dirty limerick... I won't go into full detail, (it was filthy!) but basically I used the perfect meter and rhyme scheme for the first 4 lines and then ignored it for the last line, because the consequence of this guys actions were way funnier (in a dark way) than any rhyme I could come up with. I'm trying to figure out ways to break the structure of the blues or whatever I'm playing. I do it accidentally sometimes, and I can sometimes tell that I've done it. We had a happy accident when I played a 16 bar melody over a 12 bar harmony. It worked great, but it was an accident, (and it made a mess every time we tried to add a few bars for a solo).
So, how do you make deliberates- the opposite of mistakes, that are 'wrong' but right?
The piano example you gave is probably not the best way to describe your quandary. Ending a song written in a minor key with a major chord happens all the time. It feels like the sun breaking through the clouds and creates a pleasing emotional response in the listener.
What you did with writing will work the same with music. Remember, force of will or intent (even at that last micro moment) goes a long way making music creative and exciting. Once rules are totally understood, it's ok to break them with your artistic license.
That Miles example above is one that you should listen to, as he magically makes that b9 go from "wrong" to "right" with his approach (force of will).
It sounds like you are still struggling to confidently "own" your music along with it's inherent mistakes. There really is no magic answer to your question.
That playing 16 bar melody over 12 bar progression is an awesome way to stretch out on a limb and create something very hip.
In my Top-40 band, I had a guitar player that was pretty decent, but not exceptional. However, one night, when he played his usual solo, for some reason instead of starting on the downbeat of the first solo measure, he zoned out and was feeling a beat and a half into that measure as the downbeat. Since he was pattern playing, or repeating a learned solo, and also totally unaware of his time shift, he just continued on without realizing his mistake - never waking up enough to realize it was "off". That solo was the hippest sounding thing I ever heard him play! Of course, during break when I congratulated him on it, he really didn't realize that anything was different.
If I could sit with you one on one, it would be much easier to work through these questions with you and show you how to be more free in your feeling about breaking rules creatively, using mistakes to your advantage and making your music more interesting.
Maybe someday....? ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 09, 2016 5:31 PM
so larry... what kind of response were you expecting? i do not know paul, but i have met winslow, he is one of the most open and generous people you could meet. perhaps that medical marijuana is making you paranoid?.
I think the term "wrong note" might be used to describe two different things: one is covering a riff that is a "trademark" of a well known recording and switching up key notes, and the other is just playing a note which is not a commonly excepted note for a phrase you are playing. I'm a fan of the second type of "wrong note", if it sounds good to most listeners. The first type can create an "ouch" experience. A good example of a guitar player who introduces unusual notes in his riffs at unexpected times is Dave Weld, from the Imperial Flames. His latest CD shows off this tendency, if you have time to listen to the whole thing. I also think it's important to know when not to play a note in a phrase if the ear will insert that note anyway ( often because another instrument is playing it ) and playing it can cause the tune to lose effective space. Pattern playing is a good thing if it gives listeners something familiar to hang on to. We all wanna make our individual marks, but listeners also need some familiarity to get themselves comfortable.
