blingty - I'm working on a new website and when that is finished I'll be making some chromatics as well.
mlefree - Well I would would say that the difference is huge between the different harmonicas. Another important thing when listening to any audio clip is good headphones or speakers.
Of course, people should say what they think and they should make up their own idea of what harmonica they prefer.
In the video I made I wanted to show people sound differences between different priced harmonicas. Like I said before my No.1 intention wasn't to promote my own custom harmonicas. Mikael Bäckman on the other hand he is showing and promoting J.A. Harmonicas.
And like STME58 says, you won't get a good professional trumpet for the money spent on a set of high end custom harps. Same applies to most other instruments.
I make custom harmonicas ranging from $140-$450. ---------- Regards, Joel Andersson Sweden Website Facebook YouTube
1847, Your comment reminds me of what my economics teacher said, that the true cost of anything is giving up all of the other things you could have spent that money on.
While I can see the value in having a fine instrument, I also realize that a lot of really fine music is made with very simple instruments. Louis Armstrong did not become one of the worlds most influential musicians because he got a hold of a fine trumpet.
Did I coin a new phrase? Yes I tap/ wack my harps on my leg and I'm not complaining. I may be a 'spittyer' (or is it spittier?) player than most. just pointing out that a a more air tight harp is also a bit more prone to clogging.
Good point re. comparison to brass instruments. It's still hard for me to think of harps as long term investments, having come from an era of $5 marine bands I played till they blew out, then threw out. My 1847's are the first harps that have stayed in service for as long as they have so my thinking has evolved (as my breath force gotten gentler- most of the time anyway). I guess my B-rad is worth $300 or more now, - but I keep it in it's cute little bag and almost never sully it with my spitty playing. ---------- Bone's music videos
I will say - the one Buddha harp I had was so tight it did clog way too quickly and was almost too sensitive for my style. Sold it to someone who is hopefully making good use of one of Chris' last builds.
For a newbie to customized, you may find a mid-level custom more suitable than a super tight harp. Learning to play with less force as you go. ---------- Bone's music videos
Just for fun, I updated a list I started a while ago on prices of various instruments. I had been unaware of the cost of a Bassoon until my son wanted to play one. I am renting one and he is making good progress on it, but harmonica would be much easier on the budget!
In doing this research, I came across this page that describes some very serious corrupting ot the comparison process of the type Michelle warned can occur corrupt comparisons
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 09, 2016 11:26 AM
STME58, that's where tilting the back of the harmonica helps. If I'm having a saliva-ey day I tip it and it runs back down into my mouth, which now that I just said it that way is kind of disgusting. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Nate, now that you mention it, I wonder if that is part of the reason why they started winding up horns rather than keeping the old coach horn straight form.( I have my eye on this in case I come into extra disposable income) When you tip a trombone or a trumpet up the condensate runs down the lower tube and not back into your mouth. On the other hand, wrapping the horn up too much complicates things. Those french horn players are not practicing their sign twirling during their rests, they are trying to get the condensate out of the horn! Note again the difference in the class of the instruments, horns in a symphony have water keys to remove the condensation, harmonica players slap spit on their pants.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 09, 2016 1:39 PM
I can only speak about guitars. A lot of pro players use instruments that are very valuable but were "cheap" at the point they were new. The value is only added due to age or prestige. Quality, value and worth are often very fluid concepts. A great guitar played badly is still a great guitar. I often use the example, what would you pay for Brian May's red special guitar? On one level it's priceless, on the other it's made from a fireplace and blockboard.
Last Edited by Gerry on Jul 10, 2016 1:40 AM
I dunno. My gut is telling me to continue to be the lone dissenter and play Devil's advocate again.
A good professional trumpet didn't start out as a cheap one that was modified. It was built from scratch with manufacturing cost somewhere behind quality in priority. In other words, the pro horn didn't start out in life as an inexpensive one that's current value is by sole virtue of the hours and skills someone put into customizing it.
A good professional trumpet doesn't have brass reeds that fail, necessitating the return of the instrument to its maker for repairs periodically. Even owners of high end woodwinds, which have "disposable" reeds, often make their own. If they use manufactured reeds, they are interchangeable by the owner. Only after decades of use (or more) are expensive professional orchestral instruments refurbished or rebuilt. In other words, the unavoidable aspect of harmonicas being "disposable" remains even if they cost $450. Once a reed fails, the whole instrument is worthless until it's repaired (I would assume by the maker). In contrast, a good string or woodwind instrument's appearance, sound quality, and hence value are enhanced with age and use. The materials they are made from get better, not worse, with time and use.
The cost of a professional grade musical instrument is usually measured by the experience of its maker and the prestige of the musicians choosing it over competitive models, not merely by the number of hours required to make them. Makers of professional orchestral instruments typically have decades of experience built on the foundation of formal apprenticeships. They also typically remain behind the scenes and let their instruments do the talking.
So let's stop trying to compare custom harmonicas with professional grade instruments and their makers. There are simply too many problems with that analogy.
I'm sorry, folks, but working on harmonicas is not rocket science. I don't know Joel. I'm sure he's a great guy. I'm sure his harps play significantly better than stock ones. But so do mine and many others. I don't want to become known as a crank or malcontent, but let's be real here. I know of no serious player who might be remotely interested in spending top dollar on a custom harmonica who doesn't already adjust their own reeds (or should anyway). Comparing bone stock OTOB harmonicas to ones that have been highly customized is either folly or product promotion, pure and simple. Either if which is fine, but let's not fool ourselves into pretending it is an objective comparison.
This is what I mean about the maker of a product doing his own product demonstrations or comparisons. I'm certain that Joel was sincere and honest when he designed his sound comparison. But he either knowingly or unknowingly designed a comparison that fundamentally favored his custom harmonicas. And then he performed the comparison himself. I'll believe that he tailored his playing skills to best display the capabilities of each specific harmonica. But it is only natural for someone so heavily invested in their own work to be able to make the most of their own instruments. I assume he's played them more than the 3 pound one.
Bottom line, in my apparently singular opinion and as my honest, constructive criticism, if Joel doesn't want to become known as the Ron Popiel of custom harmonicas, he would do well to avoid self-promotion. I feel that it cheapens his wares right out of the gate, the exact opposite of his apparent intention. But, as I said, I seem to be the only one who feels that way. Or the only one forthright enough to say so.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
You have to admit that Michelle has a point. Customising a harmonica to the nth degree I'm sure requires lots of skill but it isn't like building a violin is it?
I still think was a good demo though, and useful for beginners who might be bewildered by the bizarre range of harps on offer at every price point - not only the good stock ones but now customs. Perfectly reasonable for Joel to demo his own products. It's a product demo and surely everyone understands that.
For me, the more interesting demo would be a stock harp with a little gapping vs the customs. That's the real-world choice. For the kind of textbook blues harp phrase in the demo (the kind of thing I play) I think pretty much any harp will do. I'm sure more sophisticated playing would benefit though.
All this debate is keeping Joel's demo at #1, so that's nice.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 10, 2016 7:25 AM
"But, as I said, I seem to be the only one who feels that way. Or the only one forthright enough to say so." Forthright? Maybe closer to righteous, and I actually agree with you.(Michelle) To me it's more of a choose your battle situation, I think. I also have a strong science background and have to temper my analytical self sometimes. I do think JA's video was somewhat self serving because it looked to me like the peak value may have been his harp. Not worth fussing about though. I'll save my skepticism for more important matters. "Based on the comments posted so far, it appears the former is more likely." No. "We all have our pet peeves. Michelle’s is the Scientific Method. Mine is Professional Courtesy." Not mutually exclusive. "For me, the more interesting demo would be a stock harp with a little gapping vs the customs. That's the real-world choice." Yes.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jul 10, 2016 7:51 AM
"I know of no serious player who might be remotely interested in spending top dollar on a custom harmonica who doesn't already adjust their own reeds."
Wrong. Trust me on this one - there are plenty of them out there. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jul 10, 2016 8:13 AM
so if i want to sound exactly like charlie parker the solution is quite simple, just buy his personal sax for $30,000. in the long run that sounds much less expensive, and will likely be worth more in 20 years than you paid for it.
i don't see a used custom $450.00 harmonica going up in value once you drive it of the lot.
in the long run you would stand to make much more money sounding "just like' charlie parker than little walter.
Tom, as I said, if a serious harmonica player doesn't adjust their own reeds, they should.
I don't doubt that such limited players exist. So do players who don't understand the duality of 2d & 3b (Gnarly's recent post). There are serious guitar players who don't change their own strings, too. The only ones I know of, though, are rich and famous enough to have guitar technicians who do it for them.
I suppose harmonica players who don't adjust their reeds can always resort to buying a $450 custom. Or just buy another stock one and hope for the best. A shame in either case, IMO.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
"A good professional trumpet didn't start out as a cheap one that was modified." This is quite true, but it is possible for a cheap trumpet to become valuable because of its association with a famous person or event. I believe this is the kind of value Gerry was talking about. I don't think this happens very often though. If an instrument becomes more valuable because of its association with a famous musician, it was probably a well playing instrument to start with. In doing my research for the price list I posted, I found that one of the worlds most valuable violins is the one that was played on the Titanic as it sunk. This was owned by a professional musician and is probably a good journeyman level instrument, but it is its association with a famous event, and not the ease and beauty with which it plays, that create its value.
Many people believe that things increase in value as they get old and become antiques. I used to believe this, but I have discovered that when you see a 17th century piece of furniture appraised for a years salary on "The Antique Road Show", that piece of furniture was probably cost a years salary when it was made in the 17th century due to the craftsmanship that went into it. The poorly constructed and falling apart 19th century furniture rotting in my barn is never going to be worth a years salary unless I can somehow prove Abe Lincoln sat on it to sign an important document, but he was probably sitting at a better quality desks (at least after he became president) than the ones I have :-).
I will also agree with Michelle that comparing the cost of a harmonica with that of other, more durable instruments, is not a perfect analogy. But I also no longer view harmonicas as disposable. You can't yet take a harp to any local music store and have a reed replaced like you can a pad on you sax, but there are a growing number of technicians you can mail your harp to to have this done. I am learning to do reed replacement and reed setup myself and this makes me much more resistant to replacing a reed plate, and loosing all the work I have done on the other reeds on that plate. I don't have the skills and tools to replace reeds quickly so I will tend to hire it done more often than I do it myself.
Here is an article that describes a more scientific comparison, It even includes replication. Still it comes down to personal preference. I fact, what is being measured on the test is personal preference. I heard about tests like this on the radio a while ago and it doesn't say it in this article, but the radio article stated that if musicians knew which instrument was the Stradivarius, they would almost always select that one, but if the test was truly blind, the would as often choose the modern instrument.
I find it fascinating that after 300 years of the top people in the industry studying Strads and trying to improve on them, they have achieved just better than parity.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 10, 2016 9:18 AM
@mlefree It is not a scientific comparison. I agree. I also agree that the value of a custom harp is based on the knowledge, skill, and time investment of the customizer who re-manufactures the harmonica to enable it to play in a certain way that is preferred by some players. I agree that it is not quite the same as a high end horn built to high standards from the start.
Deak Harp told me that he spent 12 hours working on each of his custom Marine Bands. Time is money. When I gigged a lot, I invested in a few of his harps over a few years. I like the way his customs play (and the Filisko I once tried), but I can't afford them or other custom harps now. If I have the money (win the lottery?), I will buy some customs, but until then, only if I can justify it by how I would use them. Too many of my gigs are for too little payment for such an investment.
When I work on harps I can do some of what skilled techs do when customizing, but much more slowly, with less accuracy, and with more likelihood of screwing up. I went to some Richard Sleigh workshops and have an idea of what is needed to really improve response. I am decent at working on harps, but do not have a natural talent for fine work. I would be horrible at repairing watches.
Even if I had an innate capacity for that kind of detail work, someone who works doing something day after day will get better than someone who does it occasionally. I lack the motivation to constantly refine my harps to that high performance standard and build those skills, because with a little tweaking I can get OOTB harps to perform adequately for my purposes. Not as good as a custom, but pretty good. I agree that we should all learn basic adjustment and maintenance, and some may choose to take it beyond that. I would rather spend that extra time playing, not building harp tech skills. If I want custom performance from my harps at that level and want it enough, I will pay for it rather than constantly work to improve my skills.
Yes, there is likely unintentional bias in the demo caused by the harp having been rebuilt to meet the standards of playing that Joel prefers. His style fits the harp, and not the low end harps. That is OK. If a raw beginner played the 5 harps he likely would have choked reeds on Joel's harps and maybe the MB, and the beginner would say that Joel's harps didn't play right. That would also be unintentional bias.
I don't mind when someone shows the capabilities of their product. I find the demo to be fine. I don't object to a self serving demo, unless it is deliberately deceptive. I do not believe that Joel was being deceptive.
We are in a market based society. People market their products and skills for profit, thus “self serving”. When people showcase their products to show their value to a market it is not wrong to show them at their best. There may be a much less expensive off-the-shelf product could get the job done acceptably, though not as elegantly. But it is OK to show the product to the target audience/market, and present it in a good light.
This holds true for custom harmonicas, mics, and custom harmonica cases, among many other products. The vendor shows the product's functional strengths and appearance. The customer exercises judgment, including a gut level cost benefit assessment. Is it worth it to me?
I bought a nice guitar at a music store. The man who demonstrated it plays far better than I do. It sounded great. I played it, and it did not sound as good. I still bought it, and he got a commission. It was an OK demo and transaction. It still doesn't sound as good when I play it, but that is OK. I am not a pro guitar player. It is a better instrument than the old box I had bought in the '70s. Was it wrong for him to demo it for me? It surely was “self serving”.
Greg Heumann can get a better tone out of his bullet mics than I can, and I can get a better tone than some other local folks who have bought them from Greg. Is it wrong for Greg or other pros to show off how good the mics can sound? Should we evaluate his mics by how a poor player sounds?
I don't really disagree with your position about the lack of scientific validity. I only object to your using that issue to make statements that imply questions regarding the honesty of someone. I object to implying a similarity of Joel to Ron Popeil unless he heeds your advice and ceases personal demos. It was not nice of you to do that.
This was not a huckster demo. It was a fair demo. It was fair for you to point out that it is not scientifically valid. But it was not nice to cast a shadow on the reputation of someone reaching out to his market to show his product.
I hold a positive opinion of you from past posts and interactions. The scientific part I get. Why this demo affects you so strongly I don't understand. Joel's harps sound good, and I would like to play them. But not enough to spend the money, because I do not play in an environment in which that expense can be justified by improvement in what I do.
I really like the look of your cases and continue to consider buying what appears to be a quality product. For now I am able to get by with a Seydel case off the shelf. But your cases DO look really good. ----------
Okay, I'll take a bullet for the team... you customizers send me some of your harps and I'll play them to the best of my unbiased ability for a demo! ;)
Actually, I think, ultimately, that's what people need to do. Play it themselves. I've played combs from Andrew, Tom, Chris R., and David Payne. They were all upgrades from the stock and improved the playability of the harps, as well as making them more comfortable to play. And they look snazy!
I've played, I think, 3 or 4 harps that had at least some reed work done on them after the factory. And they are all great harps. I've gapped a few of my own harps and improved their play, but not as much as the ones someone who has taken the time who has a steadier hand and more patience for detail than me.
I've got a couple OTB harps that come pretty close (at least on playability, although none of them look as nice, and I'm still amazed by how much more fun it is to play a harp that feels easier in your hand and on your lips is than a stock harp... big harp companies, figure out how to round your corners.)
But here is the thing... the guys who get a good reputation for doing harp work, that gets around. I good stock harp is going to cost you at least $40. Pick one of the guys who has a good reputation for doing harp work and give it a try because that's the best way to do a comparison. I'm poor. I don't have a big budget, but I can save up over time and get at least one good harp to at least see what the fuss is about. Yes, it's a little frustrating that a guitar player gets to walk into a shop and play any guitar he wants to see how it sounds and we have to shell out cash for the same opportunity, but we do get to keep the harp. A single custom harp is pricey if you are on a tight budget, but it's the sort of thing you can save up for. As midlife crises go a custom harp not a Lamborghini. (A set of them might be, especially if a 'set' in your mind includes the low and high tunings in a variety of temperaments and special tunings...) Me, I'm saving up for a good mic. And then a good amp. And then I'll get around to some customs probably.
But the easiest way to see if it's 'worth it' is to try one. Get one of the mid-priced ones. I know, on my budget, that means saving up a few months, but $20 a month for a few months is doable. And if, in the end, you think you could have done as well by gapping it yourself, well, at least then you've learned that much, and you still have a harmonica- maybe, worst case scenario a harmonica you think you paid too much for, but you still have it. And actually, I've seen a lot of the well know customizers harps keep their value. Maybe that's because buying it from someone who already has it in their hand is easier than a waiting list?
Joel – I hope you are still following this post. Anyone who takes the time to read through this thread would have to agree that most people have no problem with Joel’s video. There is one notable exception. Joel, I’m guessing that you are not a Professional Salesman by trade. I am. I will give you some advice. Don’t listen to the Naysayers. There’s always someone out who will try to steal your dream and get you off course. “You can’t do it.” “Your prices are too high.” “Nobody will buy your product.” “You’re going about it the wrong way.” “You should do it this way.” These are the seeds of doubt. If you listen to them they will begin to grow like weeds in a garden. Ignore them. Don’t let them poison you. No matter how good your product is, not everyone will buy it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but as soon as someone has identified themselves as a non-buyer, move on. Keep on keeping on. Talk to enough people and you will find some who want what you have to offer.
As the old saying goes, “All publicity is good publicity.” If this is true, then I think Joel’s video is an excellent piece of marketing. He started this thread 11 days ago and we’re still talking about it. Way to go Joel!
---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jul 10, 2016 6:59 PM
this thread is getting pretty dense and maybe someone has mentioned it but a used harp is pretty muuch worthless. Your used Les Paul etc will have decent resale value
Goldbrick - Respectfully, I disagree with that statement. All harps are used once they are taken out of the package and played. A customizer will play and test the harp as they work on it, so by definition, it is a used harp when they ship the finished product to the customer. The harps that are in your gig case are all used. Are they worthless to you? There are a lot of guys who collect vintage harmonicas and pay big money for rare models. Used harps are like used cars. most of them have a lot of life left in them. They might need a good cleaning and a little TLC, but they are certainly not worthless. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
@bonedog: Buddha harps tended to jam easily because Chris (RIP) used beeswax on the rivet end of the reeds. It's not the closer tolerances that caused this phenomenon.
The real appeal of custom harps to me is not superior sound, but, rather superior RESPONSE. Playing with musicians who are much better than I am most of the time, and not having technique as strong as I would like to have, the superior response and precision of custom harps is a big help to me in playing what I am expected to play and keeping it at an acceptable level of musicality.
I do not find that custom harps jam more readily or more often than OOB harps. Now, I don't OB so my reeds are not gapped real tight. Also, since I don't need my customs set up for OBs, I am not having to pay top end prices for them. I do find that custom harps need to be cleaned more regularly too maitain optimum performance. An ultrasonic cleaner is cheap and easy to use.
I absolutely consider my set of custom harps to be $ well spent. But I play 30 or so gigs a year. A casual player or a player with really strong technique might not consider the expense justified. Another thing: I have very specific and detailed ideas about what I want in a customized harp. A player who for whatever reason is unable to articulate the specifications or expectations he or she is after may be disappointed in what the customizer builds since it may not meet the customer's unarticulated expectations. Ya sorta have to know what to ask for. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Jul 11, 2016 7:19 AM
One of the attractions of the harp is making music with a cheap instrument and some know how. It's a little bit of magic. Paying hundreds of euro for one undermines that. Does no one else feel like this?
Absolutely- the beauty is the basic decent 35 dollar harp
The harp player is an ADDITION to most bands and sessions. He fills in some gaps It is a rather awkward instrument cause you cant sing and play at the same time and often cant make seemless transitions during more complicated stuff
Unless you are super versatile player like Diggs and a couple of others on here or in a flat out straight blues band your job is to fit in, enhance and dont F up
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jul 11, 2016 9:02 AM
Doug, since you took the time to write this considered post and directed it at me personally, I will do you the courtesy of a detailed reply.
@mlefree It is not a scientific comparison. I agree. I also agree that the value of a custom harp is based on the knowledge, skill, and time investment of the customizer who re-manufactures the harmonica to enable it to play in a certain way that is preferred by some players. I agree that it is not quite the same as a high end horn built to high standards from the start.
> I wish I had never said the word "scientist." I'm glad that you agree with some of what I've said, but I never, really, never said that I was holding Joel to the standards of a scientific test. I merely said that as a scientist I know how difficult it is to show small differences. Joel and apparently many others felt the differences were obviously huge and desirable. I didn't.
...I can get OOTB harps to perform adequately for my purposes. Not as good as a custom, but pretty good. I agree that we should all learn basic adjustment and maintenance, and some may choose to take it beyond that. I would rather spend that extra time playing, not building harp tech skills. If I want custom performance from my harps at that level and want it enough, I will pay for it rather than constantly work to improve my skills.
> I've a different outlook about working on my own harps. I'm retired so time is not a problem, but spending money on custom harmonicas is not an option for me. I also prefer to do my own work in most any endeavor. So I have been accumulating harmonica repair tools, knowledge and spare parts over the 15 years of my harmonica journey. That's why I know that harmonica customization is not rocket science. It is a few "secrets" combined with a lot of experience. If someone can make a living doing it, more power to them. But, IMHO, there is no diatonic harmonica on earth worth $450 -- to me. If someone else has the budget and inclination, I say go for that $5,000 set of harps. Heck, get 'em gold plated.
Yes, there is likely unintentional bias in the demo caused by the harp having been rebuilt to meet the standards of playing that Joel prefers. His style fits the harp, and not the low end harps. That is OK. If a raw beginner played the 5 harps he likely would have choked reeds on Joel's harps and maybe the MB, and the beginner would say that Joel's harps didn't play right. That would also be unintentional bias.
> This is reinforcing my point, Doug. Since any player will impose his/her personal bias in such a comparison, they are all moot. This is why all such tests, demonstrations, comparisons, etc. are inherently flawed, IMO. Is an unbiased demonstration even possible? I think not. I'd be far less critical of such comparisons if they were presented as one person's view or opinion. But they are usually presented as statements of fact. By which I mean actual, pure truth. That is a self-imposed very high standard and one that's very difficult to support. What is pure truth anyway?
I don't mind when someone shows the capabilities of their product. I find the demo to be fine. I don't object to a self serving demo, unless it is deliberately deceptive. I do not believe that Joel was being deceptive.
> I don't mind a product demonstration either, if that is how it is presented. That wasn't the case this time. It was presented as a unbiased comparison of several different harmonicas and in my opinion the comparison was inherently flawed. Some harps were highly customized where others weren't even opened up. And they were all played by the person by and for whom the custom harps were built. The question is not one of Joel deliberately deceiving. I have stated many times that I never questioned Joel's personal integrity or motives. My problem is rooted not in the comparison itself, but in the manner in which it was presented -- as a ~fair~ and ~objective~ comparison, which I don't think it was. If it were couched as a product demonstration I wouldn't have said a word. A fine point, perhaps but a significant one to me.
We are in a market based society. People market their products and skills for profit, thus “self serving”...
> It's fine to present a product in its best light. But I have trouble when the products to which it is compared are not.
…Greg Heumann can get a better tone out of his bullet mics than I can, and I can get a better tone than some other local folks who have bought them from Greg. Is it wrong for Greg or other pros to show off how good the mics can sound? Should we evaluate his mics by how a poor player sounds?
> To my awareness, Greg has never presented a demonstration of his own products. He doesn't have to. His list of happy, satisfied customers, many of whom are luminaries, speaks for him.
...I object to implying a similarity of Joel to Ron Popeil unless he heeds your advice and ceases personal demos. It was not nice of you to do that.
> What other main-stream marketeer demonstrates his own products? I can't think of one. And I didn't compare him to Popiel, I just warned him that he is in danger of becoming like him. I was exhorting him to do a better job promoting his instruments than Ron Popiel does. I try to be precise with my language but I seem to have a real knack at giving the wrong impressions.
This was not a huckster demo. It was a fair demo. It was fair for you to point out that it is not scientifically valid. But it was not nice to cast a shadow on the reputation of someone reaching out to his market to show his product.
> It was not a fair demo, IMO, for reasons stated. But in saying that I am not calling Joel a huckster. Only a bit misguided. I stated my singular opinion about the validity of Joel's comparison and was vilified for it in public and private. Called names. Had ideas extrapolated from what I said that were patently untrue. Publicly told I was mean spirited with an axe to grind. If anyone's character was impugned in this thread it was mine. Is that how to treat someone with a different point of view?
I hold a positive opinion of you from past posts and interactions. The scientific part I get. Why this demo affects you so strongly I don't understand. Joel's harps sound good, and I would like to play them. But not enough to spend the money, because I do not play in an environment in which that expense can be justified by improvement in what I do.
> The demo affects me strongly because I think it was product demonstration cloaked as a fair, objective comparison. I believe that an uninitiated observer could draw erroneous conclusions from it and felt ~someone~ should speak up amidst all the back patting. And for the record, it is true that I don't like the timbre of highly customized harmonicas. I don't think they sound good. I think I'm entitled to that opinion. I don't equate more hours of work by an experienced customizer with a better sounding harmonica. That may be weird but I know from my own experience that when it comes to customizing harmonicas, less can oft times be more. (I admit that I am not an overblower so the benefits of a highly customized overblow harp may be lost on me.)
I really like the look of your cases and continue to consider buying what appears to be a quality product. For now I am able to get by with a Seydel case off the shelf. But your cases DO look really good.
> I appreciate those kind words. I'm glad you are able to separate my business interests from my MBH opinions even if they differ from your own.
Thanks, Doug,
Michelle
Last Edited by mlefree on Jul 11, 2016 10:44 AM
Whats the difference between a Popeil pocket fisherman and a custom harp?
The pocket fisherman can feed your family
No lie - I saw an Miccosukee woman catch a 12 pound large mouth out of a Florida canal on a pocket fisherman.
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jul 11, 2016 10:51 AM
Just for the record, don't gold plate your harps!!!
At least not from that guy who was offering them a few years back. They flaked. I remember Jason had a problem with them. To my barely scientific ears (or eyes, the messages were typed) it sounded like the guy was gold leafing them, not gold plating them. I don't *think* gold plating should flake off. Wear off maybe. Gold is soft. Aside from being non-reactive and pretty there is no reason to make a harmonica out of it. :)
I have this recurring dream where I am stranded in NYC and I have to convince a music store owner to lend me an amp/mic and give me a harmonica so I can busk outside his store to make enough money for the train ride home... and then, somewhere in the dream I rescue a beautiful woman from a mugger. It turns out she plays guitar and sings. I write songs for her and she gets famous and we both get rich. Every now and then I get to play harmonica on stage with her. Is it odd that that's a recurring dream? I mean, once, okay, but over and over?
Gold plating brass instrument mouthpieces is quite common. The mouthpiece that came with my Conn Constellation trombone, a professional level symphonic instrument, is gold plated. Many players think the gold allows the lips to slide easier than the more common silver plate and prefer this. Suzuki offers a pro-master valved harp with gold plated covers, but I did not see low lip friction listed among it's attributes in the add copy.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 11, 2016 10:14 PM
I have ordered one of Joel's high end customs in C. I'll let you all know what I think of it, maybe even a video. I have tried several customs earlier but this is surely the most expensive. Joel is probably Dick Sjöberg's most true protogè. When Dick retired Joel bought his comb making tools and some other stuff I guess. He's a top player specialising mostly in Irish music the last I heard.
I think Michelle comes off rather strong but I know that people here know how to value the content in posts to the one who is posting them. Some of us are overly positive, some are negative, some are merely mercurial. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
For me it has to do with what level of player you are and aspire to be combined with your finanacial resources. I'm very mindful of the "I haven't got the skills, so I'm going to make up for it by having the best gear" mindset that I experienced in the athletic world when I was a kid. I wound up getting pretty far in my chosen sport, but it wasn't because I could afford the best gear. The best gear really only made a difference once everybody (you and your competition) was really good. A few ounces of weight, balance, feel made a difference then, but not at the early stage. And we took special delight in kicking the kid with all the great gear who couldn't play's ass (I guess the musical equivalent would be cutiing heads?)
I tried to make this argument to the late great Buddha but it fell on deaf ears. He stated that a custom harp would make an absolute novice a better player as well as speed up the learning process. I never bought one from him, or anybody else for that matter as I remain skeptical of that claim. I am strictly an OOTB Special 20 guy, and I don't see that changing. Were I a pro or aspiring to be a pro player, I might feel differently.
All that said, I still dig JA's video and think he did the forum membership a great service to have made and posted it. It's the kind of video that adds real value to the place.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jul 13, 2016 11:13 AM
Honkin, I'd go one step farther and say that no one should play a custom until they have gotten a little way down the highway. The tighter tolerances, combined with the exuberant force some players attack the harp with before they know what it takes to blow a harp out is a recipe for disaster.
That said, at some point, if you are trying to learn overblows and not having luck and not sure if it's you or the harp having a harp that someone can certify will overblow with normal technique is really useful.
And price is just a number. The real issue is the ratio of the price vs. your income. If you are a lawyer making $500/billable hour, dropping a day's salary on a set of custom harps is no big deal. For other people that's a month, or even several months salary. Hmm... maybe we need a rule like the engagement ring rule- your harmonica set should cost "X/days salary". If I had a terrible harmonica accident that wasn't covered by insurance, realistically, even sticking to L.O.s and Sp20s it would take me a year of scrimping to get a full set up and running. That's fine. That's one of the reason's I'm a big believer in BBQ Bob's mantra of playing like there is a sleeping baby in the next room. It makes my harps last. But if I hit the lottery (not that I play it, but if I did) I'd probably grab a set of customs pretty quick. It's what you can afford.
“….that no one should play a custom until they have gotten a little way down the highway.”
First off, most beginners are not in the market for custom harps. They probably don’t discover them until they have been playing long enough to have developed a serious interest and then the find us harmonica geeks on the Internet and then it’s all over. Welcome to the asylum.
Honkin on Bob said:
“I tried to make this argument to the late great Buddha but it fell on deaf ears. He stated that a custom harp would make an absolute novice a better player as well as speed up the learning process. I never bought one from him, or anybody else for that matter as I remain skeptical of that claim. I am strictly an OOTB Special 20 guy, and I don't see that changing. Were I a pro or aspiring to be a pro player, I might feel differently.”
HOB – You should have listened to Buddha. Generally speaking, better harps open doors that you either didn’t know existed or have been banging on trying to get in without much success. I’ll give you a simple example. I started playing the harmonica in 1972 and did not discover the online harmonica community until about 8 years ago – let’s say 2008. Up until that time I never played anything except out of the box Golden Melodys. I bought many harps over the years. I always had a hard time bending the reeds on the lower keys – G and A. No problem with the C, D, E, etc. But trying to hit a 2 draw bend on a G harp for me was next to impossible. I was clueless so I just figured that was the nature of the beast - you bent the hell out f a C harp and you just chugged on a G harp. That was that. Then I bought some different brands/models and voila! You can indeed bend the 1 and 2 draw on a G or an A harp! It was an eye-opening experience for me. What changed? Me or the harp? It was the harp. Fast forward, when I learned how to gap reeds, it was easy to make every harmonica more responsive. I went through the same thing when I was trying to learn how to overblow. I kept reading about it. I kept watching videos. I kept trying. But I couldn’t get it. Then one day I hit a 6 overblow quite by accident. I was playing a song on the lower octave and then when I shifted to the middle octave I “went for a note” that I thought should be there and out popped a 6 overblow. I was a little freaked out by it because then the thinking crept in. “How did I do that?” And so I struggled with it because I was trying too hard. The harp that I accidently hit my first 6-OB on? It was a Marine Band Crossover considered by many to be the best OOTB on the market. The “better” harp unlocked a door for me.
I’ve been building harps now for about 5 years and as my reedsmithing skills have improved, so has my playing. To be sure, there are guys out there who get all they want out of stock harmonicas. This is Joel’s thread and I don’t want to hijack it but I will make you a friendly offer. I will build you a Special 20 and send it to you. Play it. Compare it to your stock Special 20’s and then let us know what you think. When you’re done with your comparison, I’ll send you a postage paid return label so you can ship it back to me. Fair enough?
Careful with accepting that offer, bobo. It's like "ok, so you don't know if cocaine is your thing. Guess what? You get the first shot for free!"
Edit: actually, I think that my fifteen minutes of gapping a sp20 is quite alright. The customs aren't really worth... But other men buy expensive cars and whatnot. Harmonica is my only vice. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jul 13, 2016 2:39 PM
Well, thankee mister Halchak, but I'm long gone down that road already. I have ordered Joel's top end harp and will review it here later. I will compare it to Stefan Swèns superb customs (two midrange, not full OB) and Johan Hörnfeldts. And I will compare it to a OOTB sp20 with fifteen minutes of gapping.
15 minutes of gapping makes a whole lot of difference and playing OOTB harps without even that just seems "dumb-lazy". Like buying a new car without adjusting the seat to your own sweet behind :).
Also postage to and from Sweden is steep :D ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
