I don't hate his playing. I didn't have any point of reference when I first heard him, so it's kinda normal to me. I don't play like that, and I don't have much interest in playing like that, or listening to him play, but when I was a teenager and 20s, 30s I listened to him a lot..I did learn to play what he does in watchtower and found it quite instructional. I've forgotten how it goes now but at the time I remember it was interesting.
Watchtower for Dylan is a fourth postion song. I believe thats how he does his minor stuff Its Am so I guess he uses a C harp I dont play 4th as it feels a little weird to me - I prefer 3rd for minor songs
I dont hate his playing. Its just annoying when he's considered a harp player. The Hohner Bob Dylan Collectors Edition Harmonica, etc. Just a bit Agrivating.
And that Bob Dylan. Tom Petty, Steven Tyler, and John Popper are apparently the only harp players that the world knows about. Only one of whom do i even consider a harp player.
Anyhow Dylan is good. Just a bit over rated IMHO. ----------
What he's doing perfectly compliments to how the folk and folk/genre works in that area, and instrumental virtuosity is WAY down the totem pole in terms of list of importance and it's the songwriting and then the vocals that are THE most important. Most of the players who diss him are largely just paying attention to solos and little else, which to be brutally honest, is nothing but jam hack mentality.
Over the years, everything he has played in terms of the harmonica has been basically playing the vocal melody and there are tons of players who absolutely suck at it and think it's beneath them to do that and regardless of whether you dig his playing or not, it is actually right with the genre and the groove and there are plenty of flashy players that do the opposite and wonder why they can't get their s**t across. On most of his tunes, playing something that totally mirrors the vocal melody often makes more musical sense than just the usual mindless riffing does.
In fact, like it or not, Bob Dylan's time is far superior than most of the players who are dissing him, which, even tho what I'm gonna say may rub a few players the wrong way, makes him a far better overall musician than the vast majority of players who are dissing him and I stand by that statement 100%.
BTW, 3rd position can fall naturally into the natural minor scale, but there are plenty of tunes in this genre that use harmonic and melodic minor scales and some positions may work a lot better than 3rd does in some cases. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jun 07, 2016 1:06 PM
^+1 You hit the nail on the head, Barbequebob. Dylan is no William Clarke, but he has helped to bring the harmonica out of the rear of the music stores to the front.
I have heard a ton of people say basically what you just said, but never quite like that. Makes alot of sense.
I will admit that i feel playing as he does seemed a bit beginner and i thought i could do much better with the time alloted. However with your explaination, i may find myself being a bit more comfortable doing simple rythm licks more often.
Maybe not quite as simple as dylan, but still. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 28, 2016 6:52 AM
"The Freewheelin' Bob Dyalan" was one of the first records I remember my father playing to death in our house, so it was a huge subliminal influence on my eventually picking up the instrument. I've never shared the reflexive antipathy that some have for him--"Bob Dylan," uttered as a sneer, when the subject of his harmonica playing is brought up. I really like his cross harp playing on "Honey Just Allow Me One More Chance," and his first position style is deceptively difficult to get just right, although it's easy to burlesque--i.e., to get the flavor of, and mock.
For all that, I think I understand why he rates fairly low among blues harp players:
1) He mostly plays in first position, rather than cross harp, and he doesn't play it in the standard first-position "blues" way, which makes him seem to many like something of a dead end
2) Although blues songs are and have always been a core element of his repertoire, non-blues songs are more of what he's known for, so he's not really a blues guy--and yet, when blues harp is mentioned among civilians, his name is as likely as not to come up: the category error (so to speak) repeated, annoyingly
3) He plays rack harp; in fact, he almost single handedly DEFINED rack harp among young whites in the 1960s, creating the image of the folkie blowing rack harp, and so, once again, he pulls the center of gravity AWAY from blues in the pop-music imagination, and toward folk.
I think that those three interrelated things have made him, for many blues players, an annoyance: a huge figure who hovers menacingly on the boundary of our subculture like a Dark Star, sucking bandwidth away from the people who most of us would consider much more central to what we're about.
I only briefly tried to copy his style, early on, before moving on to Sonny Terry, Butterfield, etc. But I don't sneer when his name is mentioned.
Lets face reality- except to other blues harp players the majority of us are boring after a couple of tunes
I think the oft quoted comments by Larry Adler and Paul Jones made it hip to disparage Dylan
The nuances you stress hours over ( which tube, which tuning etc) are lost on the bandstand
Dylan not only plays harp that fits his songs- he is an accomplished guitar finger picker ( listen to his first LP) , emotive singer and arguably the greatest American songwriter of the period he has been active.
Who else can write a song like this?
Dylan is the total package and to put each separate piece in a vacuum is not what his genius is about
Adam .... That was a good post. I enjoyed it. Dylan wasnt quite the huge deal during my childhood as he was in some of yalls. So i can see why some would hold a special place for him. I never actually got very far into him, so maybe my opinion is irrelevant, but you had some good points.
I seem to remember a cut or two on his first and/or second album in which the harmonica playing was way different from the evolution towards playing the melody - could have been "train" influenced or something like that. I was impressed when I heard it, so Bob obviously has more "up his harmonica sleeve" than is readily apparent.
Wasn't he also a bit of a harmonica session player on some other artist's recordings early on?
Also, strangely enough, even though I didn't think much of his harmonica playing a long time ago, I found that it was beyond my capabilities to imitate it without sounding terrible.
As to artistry, he carries the mantle forward wordsmith-wise of what was introduced in the 50's by The Beats, into the sixties. Bob just put it to music rather than spoken or written in books.
Neil Young does very similar rack work on many of his early songs, too, and it fits perfectly. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 29, 2016 7:52 AM
BBQ BOB ">>>the harmonica has been basically playing the vocal melody and there are tons of players who absolutely suck at it and think it's beneath them to do that >>>"
Amen once again. (Mr. 'Q' always gets it right) That's why I encourage players to venture into country and folk - where they can start to learn to play melodies, not just 'licks'. Lots of Dylan's tune's can be played in 2nd by the way - and should still push you to find the melody- and bring you a little closer to being as BBQ says, - an "overall musician"
Dylan's harmonica compliments his songs and his style just so - It works in this folk context, - but I don't consider him a 'harp player'. ---------- http://noamsmusic.tumblr.com
Last Edited by bonedog569 on May 31, 2016 6:03 PM
Here's a thing that happened to me many years ago doing something for about the very first time outside of blues that taught me a HUGE lesson and wound up having my head handed to me, and deservedly so.
I was doing a gig with a folk/rock trio, with everything played totally acoustic, and come time to play a solo on a particular tune, and when called upon to do a solo on a ballad, and I made a classic screw up I see the vast majority of players do when their entire experience is nothing but open blues jams/open mics and just riff, and as soon as the set was done, I received a non stop ration of shit that, looking back on it, I absolutely FULLY DESERVED EVERY BIT OF IT.
The trio's leader got right in my face and said "What the f*ck do you thing you're f**king doing?? What you did was nice and flashy and patted your mother f**king ego on your back but not one f**king note fit with the groove and feel and it totally clashed with lyrics of the goddamned song!!! Next time, listen CAREFULLY to the goddamned melody and cool the egotistical flash ass s**t!!!"
Now, did that poke a hole in my ego that night? Absolutely!!! However, I quickly learned something the average jam hack NEVER learns and that one size or one approach does NOT fit all.
Whenever I've listened to country harp, often times they're doing something in many ways is like what you do in a folk or folk/rock thing, basic play something very minimal that largely mimics the vocal melody and sometimes you're playing what would normally be more like a vocal harmony part (meaning the main melody starts at the root note while the harmony part starts at the 3rd of the chord, etc., which is something most harp players in an open jam are GUARANTEED to royally screw up in a NY minute).
I also learned from doing this that the harmonica has to express more than just being a nasty ass mother fuyer and to be able to express a wide variety of emotions besides that and many players are often too damned hard headed to learn this.
After doing this type of gig, I wised up and stopped thinking like the average jam hack harp player does about Bob Dylan or players similar to that, or a legendary folk artist who was major influence on him, Woody Guthrie.
It also taught me a lesson that music ain't just about virtuosity alone. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jun 01, 2016 12:45 PM
Enjoying Bar-b-Que's stories. He made many mistakes in his approach over the years (as we all do), tells of getting yelled at, realizes he has much to learn and then LEARNS from the experience.
His ego is under control enough not to take anything personally (wish more of today's players were as evolved) in his quest to become a better musician.
Nothing wrong with getting screamed at for being a bonehead as long as one is willing to change and learn. ---------- The Iceman
Yes recently I've been playing in an Americana-folk-swing-gospel type ensemble.
It's been useful to search out sheet music to more precisely work out the head or main verse/ chorus/ bridge vocal lines. It makes my playing much more appropriate and musical for this type of music.
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Jun 02, 2016 1:40 AM
Great topic--I think playing to fit the song ,is much like harmonizing vocally in songs-
the harmonizers should blend with the main vocal, not dominate--
almost like a bass player--u may not hear every thing he or she is doing, but---u sure notice when its not there
It can be,
u with the band
or u vs the band-- I prefer with the band
I was in a situation where a young player -16 at the time- sat in several times with different bands--u could tell he was chompin at the bit for his turn---he never noticed the very tasteful lead the guitar player did before him==--he came in like a machine gun at a Barry Manilow concert---even non musicians were sick of him--- like previously mentioned
'compliment the song, the feel and the other musicians on the stage---this always comes across better than dominating-
I like what Dylan does on "Don't Think Twice it's Alright" and "Watchtower". He also played harp on Harry Belafonte's version of "Midnight Special", which might be the train inspired playing Iceman was thinking of.
I like Neil Young's harp work too. The brief harp part he does near the end of "Harvest Moon" for example has a simple beauty to it.
@dougharps -- Your last sentence is also a VERY important one because too many players just don't seem to know and think that there is a time to just shut the damned harp up completely and that sure as hell is an important part of being a good musician, regardless of what instrument you play. Every reputable pro will always tell you that it's far better to UNDERPLAY rather than over play and make total jerk out of yourself. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob, what I said above is why 2 different bands hire me regularly as a sideman, and why I get called for projects like the gospel blues radio show and for one off sideman gigs. Depending on the song and genre I work hard to make what I do support the song. On some songs I may need to go wild, but most call for subtle comping or simple fills, and some call for stepping back and shutting the hell up.
Support the singer, serve the song, and you will make good music. When you play with restraint most of the gig, the times that you DO play hard for the sake of the song will stand out and people will notice. If you constantly play on and on, people will tune you out or be annoyed and you won't get jobs.
I know that you know that... still, it needs to be said every so often. ----------
