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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > B & F# harmonicas
B & F# harmonicas
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Owen Evans
141 posts
May 24, 2016
10:07 PM
Hello everyone, I hope you can help me with a dilemma.

I haven't played for as long as some of you and I know your experience will be very helpful. I have a bag full of harps and I use all of them frequently. I have never been in need of a B harp to play in E cross harp (2nd position) nor an F# to play in the key of B.
How often would you say you need these keys when playing mostly blues. Is the investment in a B & F# harp worth the money? My current bag of harps includes the following keys:
A; A-flat; B-flat; C; D; D-flat; E; E-flat; F; Low F; G; Low A and Super 64 Chromatic in C
Thanks in advance.
yermanyahyah
13 posts
May 24, 2016
10:22 PM
2nd positión whith a B harp is F# not E and 2nd position on F# is C#. I dont use much the B harp but I love it and you can play in E but in 12th position. Sounds good. The F# i think is to high to play whith it an other thin than blues.
Piro39
109 posts
May 24, 2016
10:25 PM
Second position for a B harp is the key of F#, second position for an F# harp would be the key of C#(D flat). The use of these harps is determined by you and the band you play with. Each key harp has it's own special flavor and there are other position besides second which I suggest you learn because it will musically open your head up to new sounds and relationship of notes on the harp. I love natural minor tuned harps. They are great for jazz and jazzy blues for example one can play a G natural minor harp labelled in second position over a B flat major modal groove. B flat is the relative major of G minor. You will start hearing Coltrain when you do this rather than Little Walter. It's a very different sound.
STME58
1717 posts
May 24, 2016
10:30 PM
Many of us, myself included, feel that a harmonica consists of at least one harp in each key. Others get by with just 5 or 6 harps that are more commonly used. Funny thing, if you play multiple positions you can get by with fewer harps, but it you are advanced to that point you probably have a full set. Your F# can be used in 4th to play Eb minor and the B in 4th to play Ab minor, but these keys are not to common. The B in 12th can play in E and 12th lends itself well to many jazz tunes. 12th tends to get overlooked, but it has in common with second that there is only one note in the major scale that is not in the key of the harp.
Your repertoire and the people you play with will determine how often you might be able to use these harps. They are not often used in most cases and would be the last I would acquire on the way to a full set.

I sat in with a guitarist one night at a bar I used every key that night. I think he was just testing me to see if I could find the keys.
STME58
1718 posts
May 24, 2016
10:42 PM
The kit I am working on building slowly is 29 major harps from LLF to high G, and 12 minor harps in standard keys. Even if these were $100 harps that would be $4100 which is about what a top quality pro level trumpet or trombone costs and quite a bit less than a sax at that level. OF course, I don't play at that level so I can justify taking out a loan for such a kit. I think the harp is the only instrument you can buy a fraction of and be able to play real music. If I bought a trombone a piece at a time I wouldn't be able to make much music until I had all the pieces!
FreeWilly
506 posts
May 25, 2016
12:25 AM
Sounds like you have all you need to get by in jam situations playing in 2nd all the time. Your gigbag doesn't determine how good you are, your playing does. I only recently acquired a full set and that did feel good. I still haven't needed the F# and B though. But it's nice to have the option (I sing, too, and if a song comes along where that is THE key, I'll take them out). Feels nice.
So are they worth the money? Depends on how much you have. It's nice, but you can get through life without. A good mic will help your mucisianship more, I reckon..

Oh, and get a low F# if you do get one... That way you'll actually like to get it out ;)
harmonicanick
2460 posts
May 25, 2016
1:09 AM
I carry lotsa harps but no F# or B
Better spend your money on minor tuned harps or low/high tunings or spares
SuperBee
3787 posts
May 25, 2016
3:29 AM
I still don't have an F#. I rarely carry a B.
Personally I rarely use E, Eb, Db, B, Ab.
Pretty much always G A Bb C D and F/low F
snowman
210 posts
May 25, 2016
5:40 AM
Thrill Is Gone is usually in 'Bm' for BB king --I do it in 'Cm' ----Its a great song to hear the benefit of 'minor tuned harps' ---

If u buy a 'E natural minor' tuned harp- yr golden--- u will have to play it until yr ears get use to it-

-if u do that, try switching back in forth between a 'regular tuned E' and a 'nat minor tuned E' and u will think wow,wish I had got one sooner--do it on Thrill,,,

U should still learn 3rd pos ---but I much prefer the- nat minor harps-

songs for natural minor that come to mind--
[Summertime-I shot th sheriff--Unchain my heart--Thrill--
U can do work song with one--but Butterfields and R ford bands version of it on regular is REALLY GOOD--but they don't play much high end---u can wail on the hi end with a "nat minor
there are many more -but don't have my songlist
I agree with harmonick--try one ---PLAY IT LONG ENOUGH TO GET USE TO IT--

when playing a song in cross and the straight draw 3 'unbent' sounds horrible---the chances are the I and IV chord are minor and or the song is in minor---USE THE NAT MINOR HARP-- GOOD LUCK
Owen Evans
142 posts
May 25, 2016
8:25 AM
Thankyou all for your feedback folks.
I feel like a doofus for asking the questions above with the wrong key in 2nd position. It would have been sensible to look at the Circle of 5ths before asking the question. I won't forget these harps ever again! And, I beg your pardons. I always learn from my mistakes.
The suggestion from Snowman to learn 3rd position is exactly what I am learning now. Maybe down the road I will learn other ones but currently, I am trying to stay within a wheelhouse I can handle. And @FreeWilly, I did buy the amp and the great mic and I agree 100%, these have helped me understand how to play better in the woodshed so as to sound decent when I am amplified. Y'all are a great help, thanks again.

Last Edited by Owen Evans on May 25, 2016 8:26 AM
slaphappy
191 posts
May 25, 2016
9:04 AM
besides having all keys for any scenario, I like having less common keys just to play them so I don't wear out my standard keys during practice..

my low F# I got from superchucker is one of my favorite harps.. you just never know. I love my B harp too, it's a good register to play in.


----------
4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!

Last Edited by slaphappy on May 25, 2016 9:07 AM
WinslowYerxa
1150 posts
May 25, 2016
10:20 AM
One very famous use of an F# harp would be John Mayall's 1970 hit "Room to Move":


===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
Thievin' Heathen
757 posts
May 25, 2016
11:05 AM
And don't forget those wild card situations where the guitar player has tuned down a 1/2 step. Maybe in a band situation, he will transpose, but the folk chick I sat in with last night did not.

Not to self.., Don't forget to work on that Db.
A440
544 posts
May 25, 2016
12:18 PM
I use both. The band I play with does a few blues songs in F# to match the vocal range of singer, so I use a B harp for those songs. We also have a rock song in F#, which I play in 1st position, using a normal (high) F# harp for a few repeating riffs, and an 8-bar solo - that sometimes even drifts up to the 8-9-10 hole range. Those high notes work really well for that particular song.

I recommend getting a full set of 12, and also a LF and a HG. You will eventually need them all, especially as you start to play more positions, you can use different keyed harps in many different situations.

Last Edited by A440 on May 27, 2016 4:02 AM
harmonicanick
2461 posts
May 25, 2016
2:50 PM
Nice one Winslow, god that takes me back..
Owen Evans
143 posts
May 25, 2016
3:54 PM
Damn, Winslow Yerxa, you have one helluva memory! I remember playing this song on the guitar in another life. And Thievin' Heathen, you are absolutely spot on with the ½ step tuning. I am so glad I asked because as Slaphappy put it, B is a nice key to play in...they all are. I'll just buy these and then there's no excuses, I'll have them all.

Except minor keyed harps. Isn't that the reason to play in 3rd position? Why would one need all the minor keyed harps? Glad I'm going to SPAH, I have a lot of crazy questions like this ;-)
WinslowYerxa
1152 posts
May 25, 2016
6:00 PM
You can use whatever suits your fancy for minor keys.

If playing in second position on minor-tuned harps does it for you, then why not (aside from the expense of not only a bunch of new harps but a case big enough to hold them all). And playing those harps chordally is fun!

But learning the ins and outs of third, fourth, and fifth positions is also great. It deepens your understanding of the resources built into the harp, and gives you a whole new vocabulary.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=as_li_qf_sp_sr_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&index=aps&keywords=1118880765&linkCode=ur2&tag=winslowyerxac-20&linkId=Q2YRPGDAT5PXMJAG">Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
jpmcbride
117 posts
May 25, 2016
6:06 PM
I've been at a jam where the harp player couldn't play in the key chosen by the band. He got to sit down, and the guy with all 12 keys in his case got to go back up and play some more (me). It pays to be prepared to play whatever comes your way. Small investment for just a couple more harps.

----------
Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
Goldbrick
1482 posts
May 25, 2016
6:33 PM
I have some Suzukii Folkmasters in the off keys

$ 10 each and they play just fine

In bands I play with we try and stick to " normal "
keys ( G, D ,A , E).

I dont do many jams-- I think all they do is mess up your timing.
If I sit in I bring A,C,D and G harps it covers the regular Keys and some common minors in 3rd position

Dont understand the need to be in on every song
Harp to me is like Wasabi- a little goes a long way

Last Edited by Goldbrick on May 25, 2016 6:36 PM
hvyj
3042 posts
May 26, 2016
9:17 AM
Ya know, I've never felt the need to carry (or own) a minor key harp. I play some gigs where I have to play in different kinds of minor keys over half the time. I am able to function effectiely using my Richter tuned harps in 5th, 4th, or 3rd position (ocassionally 2d, for example on Miss You, Long Train Running, Papa Was a Rolling Stone, etc.).

You don't need to lug around minor tuned harps to get the scales you need for playing in minor keys. You just need to know what position generates the required minor scale you need for a particular tune. You don't need additional hardware.
STME58
1720 posts
May 26, 2016
5:18 PM
hvyj, You are correct about being able to play minor on a Richter tuned harp. But as Winslow alluded to, it can be fun to have the minor chords available.

I'm an advocate of learning multiple positions, but I still enjoy the chords I get from a minor harp, especially when playing unaccompanied. You can also play all of the modes on a minor harp.
FatJesus
75 posts
May 26, 2016
5:47 PM
I've got both. I rarely touch the B (but I'm glad I have it when I need to); the F# (a Low F#) is a great harp, though.

But... it really depends on what you play. If you find yourself doing a lot of Tom Waits, a Low F# can be a blast (the weird keys that guy uses... ugh); but just by itself, it has a great, great tone.

Somewhat unrelated: I also really dig a Low Eb.

On minor keys: You should totally learn to play minor keys on regular harps. And, then? You should totally spend a few bucks on a couple of inexpensive Lee Oskar natural minor keys, if only to enjoy all the very available minor key chords. They're fun, and not a big investment--and you can see the difference in what you can do vs. a regular harp (once you understand playing minor scales on regular keys).

I've got a natural Em, Bm, Am--and they can be fun.

One thing: If you do go that route, they're sold in the cross-harp key (unlike a regular harp).
GamblersHand
605 posts
May 27, 2016
6:00 AM
This one has an F# too

GamblersHand
606 posts
May 27, 2016
6:01 AM
double post

Last Edited by GamblersHand on May 27, 2016 6:01 AM
A440
547 posts
May 27, 2016
7:27 AM
@Goldbrick - I love the Dylan clip! It sounds like at least a half dozen harps were thrown onto the stage. Those were they days, when there were loads of people carrying E harps in the their pockets... today it's hard to find someone carrying a harp in any key.


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