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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
The high end of the standard tuned diatonic
The high end of the standard tuned diatonic
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Gnarly
1771 posts
May 03, 2016
3:44 PM
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Hi everybody,
As some of you know, the standard tuned diatonic (which we will call Richter, for our purposes) was developed to play in first position. In that light, the holes 7-10 make sense, they are most of the major scale (omitting the 7th degree, the B on a C harp).
But most folks here play blues (I think), in second position (I am pretty sure), and there are some important missing notes on the top end--and more to the point, you can't do the same moves on top that you can on the bottom, specifically draw bending the consonant chord tones (on a C, playing blues in G, we draw bend 2, 3, and 4--those notes are G, B, and D--and the B and D notes on top don't bend).
What do you do to make sense of the top of the harp?
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Gnarly
1772 posts
May 03, 2016
4:26 PM
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One thing I do is to valve 7 and 8, to get the draw bends. But then I forget they are there!
Another is to retune--5 draw can be raised a half step, to give you a half step bend on that hole, and I know Todd Parrott has a tuning that lowers draw 7 to give you a half step bend on that hole. And then there is the famous "On the Road Again" tuning, created by retuning the 6 draw reed up a half step . . .
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Killa_Hertz
1272 posts
May 03, 2016
5:13 PM
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That's very interesting.
I was interested in trying the Power Tunings aswell. By Brendan Powers ofcourse. The only problem i have with ur is, if you get used to a custom tuned harp it might then be hard to go back to a richer tuned.
Maybe not idk. But i tend to think that your tuning changes may have the same result.
What do you think?
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bonedog569
1007 posts
May 03, 2016
5:50 PM
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"What do you do to make sense of the top of the harp?" Same thing you do to get to Carnegie Hall - practice practice practice. That won't make the top play like the bottom, but you will get more and more comfortable up there. Overbends and blow bends do open the possibilities. Run scales and stair step patterns up and down- all the way.
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Piro39
106 posts
May 03, 2016
6:06 PM
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I tune the 7 draw down a half step and valve the 8 blow on the top reed plate. This will give you a complete blues scale in 2nd position starting from 6 blow,7 draw, 7 blow. 8 draw bend, 8 draw, 9draw, 9 blow. This tuning is useful for many other positions. In second position you loose having three draw notes in a row 2, 3, and 5 for the major pentatonic scale and you also loose the 6th as a draw note of the 6 draw in 3rd position. I have many harps that I've set up this way and love using the higher register along with the lower one. One can come up with a lot of new ways of playing blues on the harp with this set up.
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STME58
1678 posts
May 03, 2016
6:44 PM
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This is something I have also been thinking about and working on lately. I have noticed that if I am just noodling around with no other instruments or backing track, I will almost always inadvertently modulate to first position when I go for the high end. I think bonedog has the key, practice, but one needs to be intentional about practicing. To mush together a phrase from my martial arts instructor and a music instructor. "Practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect." In my case, more work with background cords to keep grounded in the 2nd position key. When I do this I find the minor third on the 10 whole step bend to be an interesting and useful note.
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Gnarly
1774 posts
May 03, 2016
9:14 PM
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@bonedog I chatted with Kitt Gamble last week, and I asked him what the perfect tuning was--he said Richter!
I don't plan to practice practice practice but then, I'm not a blues man.
Please forgive me.
I tuned a SP20 to PowerBender, so I played it a little bit--I liked it better than previous times, but it's still not my favorite--Melody Maker and its close personal friend Major Cross both work for me, as does Brendan's Power Chromatic (AKA IV6/V6, or Magic Bop).
But this thread is for all y'all, what else does anyone have to share?
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MindTheGap
1562 posts
May 03, 2016
10:50 PM
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Lots of the books and instruction said transpose your low end licks to the top. I didn't think that sounded good when I tried it, and I couldn't find examples where people did that on records.
Instead I listened to hundreds of tracks to find the relatively rare, 2nd position top end work using standard tuning and no overbends, and worked out what they actually did.
Too many to mention here, but broad categories are:
1. Major pentatonic runs
2. Flourishes e.g. 8 8+ 7 6 6+.
3. Hits e.g. 9 10+ 10''
4. Substituting 8+ 9+ blow bends for 8 and 9
5. Long held 9+
6. On the IV chord, switching to 1st position
7. Rakes across 6 7 8
8. Superfast runs e.g. Sugar Blue.
Richest pickings were from Charlie Musselwhite, Jerry McCain, Walter Horton.
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Gnarly
1775 posts
May 03, 2016
11:14 PM
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@MindTheGap Excellent! Thank you!
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MindTheGap
1564 posts
May 03, 2016
11:59 PM
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You're welcome. A little concrete source material:
Charlie Musselwhite, Wild Wild Woman (blow bends)
Sam Myers, Young Fashioned Ways (blow bends)
Greg Heumann's Kalamazoo Demo (blow bends)
Jerry McCain, Steady (Rakes)
Rod Piazza, Deep Fried (Lots of 9+)
Walter Horton, My Black Mare (Held 9+)
Kim Wilson, Lowdown, (Flourishes)
Looking through my notes I forgot chords and splits, which I guess get over the 'bland draw notes' problem
e.g.
Jerry McCain, Turn your Damper Down
Lazy Lester, Alligator Shuffle
Charlie Musselwhite - Harpin' on a Riff
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mlefree
662 posts
May 04, 2016
5:08 AM
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I'm so used to Richter that I am a fish out of water with anything else. I even struggle with Paddy Richter tuning which is about as innocuous a change from Richter as they come. Just when I start to get used to Paddy I pick up a Richter again and I start laying eggs like prize hen.
The best change for me that I've found is half-valving the whole harp. But those high-end half-valved draw bends are very tough for mere mortals like me. And like Gnarly, on stage I often forget the valves are there anyway.
I do like playing splits that extend to the high end. After years of struggling, Dave Barrett taught me how to seamlessly transition to 5-hole high-end draw octaves just at this last SPAH. But I now have the "cheating" technique taught to me by Paul Davies so well ingrained that it is hard for me to put my new-found high-end draw octave into practical use. Paul "cheats" by seamlessly substituting the high end note of what would be a high-end draw octave. If you get good at it people don't even notice that you've only played that one note in a run of 4-hole splits.
So, once again it is like the old saying, follow the money. If I trace the difficulties I have learning a new tuning or committing a new technique like Paul's to muscle memory I always end up at same root of the problem -- "lackus practicus."
Whenever I flagilate myself for a few days trying to learn a new tuning or way to cheat Richter I always come to the same end point conclusion. The areas that I want to explore within the boundaries of standard Richter layout are so vast that I no longer put any real effort into learning altered tunings or workarounds to "fool" it. For me the body of work done in Richter layout that I aspire to is so immense that I see no real reason to change things at this point along my harmonica journey.
Bottom line: I figure my time is better spent trying to play like Joe Filisko than worrying about changing the instrument.
At least that's the way I see it.
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on May 04, 2016 5:16 AM
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snowman
199 posts
May 04, 2016
6:39 AM
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All my harps are now ‘Todd Parrot’ tuned [I flatten 7 draw ---Except; I use a rack ‘A LOT’ and Neil Young and Folky stuff sometimes needs to have standard 7 draw—So I have A C D E F G in standard as well--
I have ‘nat minor harps’ in all keys that I use for Minor –Thrill is Gone-Summertime—[Im goin back to the blues, ‘sayer haden I think’ ,similar to thrill]--- Nothin to Nobody Robben Ford—I shot sheriff—Don’t let me be misunderstood—Unchain my Heart-- on n on—It makes it way easier with a rack-Yes I can play in 3rd pos but prefer nat minor-
The nat minor took couple monthes for [ ears, muscle memory, mind recognition etc] to adjust quickly –I have one brendon powers deal in A, the hi end draw tuning thing-seldom use’
All these tunings took the 3 monthes---now after a few years –my mind can hear the melodies, sounds and or licks for each tuning—but the basic deal happens in about 3 monthes---IT DOES NOT SCREW UP YR STANDARD HARP PLAYING-yr muscle and mind memory is way in grained to ‘standard richter.
Now when I play a standard richter [without rack] in blues--- I miss the todd Parrot tune—In cross harp the flatted 7 draw ties holes 1-6 and holes 7-10 together better -[for me anyway]
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The Iceman
2851 posts
May 04, 2016
8:48 AM
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I believe that those of you having trouble making sense of the top end are approaching the diatonic with a pattern mind set, especially when you try to relate it with the bottom end.
Putting pattern playing aside and just "learning where all the notes live" will get you much further along in the long run.
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The Iceman
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Gnarly
1777 posts
May 04, 2016
8:56 AM
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Well, you know, I play guitar. That's really what I do.
And when I play guitar, if I want the same "sound" in a different place, I just move to a new location on the neck.
Can't really do that with harp.
What to do? "Don't do that"?
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MindTheGap
1565 posts
May 04, 2016
9:06 AM
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The top end of the harp is simply different. I rather like that weirdness. I guess you can either rail against it and insist on chromaticism with overblows, or retune it, or pretend it is the same and play very fast to cover it up. Or embrace it and follow what people have done in the past that sounds good. Personal choice.
I did learn where the notes are, and how they could be inflected, and that's why I made my own choice.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 04, 2016 9:09 AM
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Gnarly
1778 posts
May 04, 2016
9:08 AM
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"The top end of the harp is simply different."
Well, the one in front of me is . . . I wonder if I have reinvented one of Brendan's tunings.
It's an E, but for our purposes, here it is in C.
C E G C E G A C D F
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
D G B D F A B D E G
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MindTheGap
1566 posts
May 04, 2016
9:27 AM
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I'm not into alt-tunings so I've no idea about that one. If I wanted to play 2nd position all over the harp, Brendan's PowerBender looks like the obvious solution.
Sorry Gnarly, my misunderstanding I thought from the OP you were asking about how to make 2nd position work in vanilla tuning.
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Gnarly
1781 posts
May 04, 2016
10:02 AM
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@MindTheGap No misunderstanding, that is the easiest approach in some ways, and your post was brilliant.
But there are "many paths to buddha" hahaha and I am looking for the easy way to get good sounding bends on the top end. With the tuning I just posted, 7 and 8 can be draw bent to get the same bends you get on 3 and 4--I bet this is PowerDraw or something . . . Nope, I just checked, that's not it.
The problem I have with PowerBender is that the top holes are reversed and it's a chore to retune to PB from Richter.
I just did a harp and I wound up swapping ten reeds!
This thread was started because Killa_Hertz was asking about the top end on a thread entitled, "Windsavers". So I started a new thread--and I don't mean to muddy the waters, most of y'all don't retune the harp, but some do!
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 04, 2016 10:50 AM
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mr_so&so
1019 posts
May 04, 2016
10:37 AM
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The topic is "high end of the standard-tuned harp". I've taken up the goal of sticking to 2nd position and really grasping it, which means becoming as familiar with the top end as the bottom end. I use the the 6ob all the time in my playing, and I've found that to be the key to me being able to cross the divide in a blues context. That and much practice. For major tunes I've also spent time getting fluent with the major pentatonic pattern over the whole harp. I'm also a fan of the "move your licks up" school as a way practising. I use that approach often as a way of developing at tune as well -- starting in the lower octave, then moving to the upper octaves in subsequent choruses. If you don't hear the high end that much in 2nd position recordings, all the more reason to work on it.
@MindTheGap Great detective work on your previous post!
Last Edited by mr_so&so on May 04, 2016 10:40 AM
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Gnarly
1782 posts
May 04, 2016
10:47 AM
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Yup, that's the topic, keep the ball rollin'!
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Gnarly
1783 posts
May 04, 2016
10:48 AM
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So just how much overdrawing do y'all do?
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mr_so&so
1020 posts
May 04, 2016
11:11 AM
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Overdrawing? Zero to now. It's still on my list for later.
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Tyler
33 posts
May 04, 2016
1:09 PM
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Unfortunately, I find I use the high end more for effects than for musicality. I love a good riff or solo that makes seamless use of the top octave, but I don't do a lot. I really like some of the altered approaches, but I suppose the question refers to standard tuned diatonic.
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Gnarly
1786 posts
May 04, 2016
1:14 PM
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Let me be clear--
The question has to do with the 10 hole diatonic harmonica, and the standard tuning, but answers to this question do not exclude the use of altered tunings, nor for that matter the use of valves or extra reeds (I'm thinking XB-40 or SUB30). At least, that was my intention in initiating this discussion, which is why I mentioned the first two in my reply to my original post.
I am trying to promote a discussion of what works, whatever that might be--including recommending exhaustive practice.
That's probably worked for most of the folks who we could mention that can navigate the top end--but I'm not one of them--
I would like to thank everyone who participates, your answers are valuable.
So far, MindTheGap wins the blue ribbon.
Last Edited by Gnarly on May 04, 2016 1:15 PM
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Goldbrick
1421 posts
May 04, 2016
1:33 PM
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I guess I am one of those who would be happy with a case full of Big 6s ( actually would be better as a Big 7 for the 7th hole blow )
The top end for me is pretty much when I shift to first position on the IV chord as mentioned or the quick V chord on 8 9 10 holes
I prefer the low end and some of my favorite harps are SBS marine band with yhe xtra bottom octave
The top end is pretty grating to my ear
I rarely play above the 15th fret on guitar for the same reasons
Last Edited by Goldbrick on May 04, 2016 1:35 PM
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mr_so&so
1021 posts
May 04, 2016
2:00 PM
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As for practical tips, I have found it useful to run scales (as best I can play them at present) up and down the whole harp. E.g. blues scale notes starting on 1b and ending on 10b, and major pentatonic notes starting on 1d and ending on 10d (or 10b' if you are good on 10 hole blow bends). Run these up and down, trying to play them musically, and always ending on a root note.
For example, the blues scale notes I currently play in 2nd, and using the 6ob are:
1b, 1d', 1d, 2d'', 2d, 3d', 4b, 4d', 5d, 6b, 6ob, 7b, 8d, 9d, 9b, 10b'', 10b
Without the 7od, I end up with the minor pentatonic above 6b.
A nice descending riff starts on 10b'' and runs down the scale to 6b. Notice how similar this sounds to the blues scale that runs from 6b to 2d, even though the scale notes are different.
Also don't forget about the notes below 2d''...
I do a similar exercise with the major pentatonic scale, which is easy, and the major scale which requires the 5ob, 9b' and 10b' (the last of which still vexes me).
I also run these scales as splits/octaves and see what I can make of them that way.
And finally, so I don't get too bored with scales, I learn some songs (melodies) that use those scales and play them, and learn them so well that I can start improvising by deviating and returning to the melody. Most of Blind Willie Johnson's songs use the blues scale, and many gospel songs use the major pentatonic. And of course lots use the major scale. Learn some that you like.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on May 04, 2016 2:05 PM
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robbert
407 posts
May 04, 2016
2:31 PM
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I've tried some alternate tuned harps, and half valved, as well, and my hat's off to harp innovators,but I decided to stick with the idiosyncratic standard tuning. I work with the thing as it is. Also, I work on chromatic harmonica. This is more than enough to keep me busy 24/7, if I even had that much time. If I were playing regularly in a Balkan band, or something that called for particular scales or tuning, I might use alternative tuning. Currently, one of the duos I play in explores raga inspired material in part, and I find this is very accessible on standard diatonic or chromatic.
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Gnarly
1787 posts
May 04, 2016
2:39 PM
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The bottom of the standard tuned harmonica is pretty chromatic, if you can accurately draw bend--but the top is backward, the bends are not good for second position, and the register is high--
I agree about chromatic, but it's a different sound, lots of folks who like the sound of one don't like the other!
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eebadeeb
103 posts
May 04, 2016
4:42 PM
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I played Powerbender exclusively for a year. I retuned a whole set using the US equivalent of Blu-tack. I did discover there was no point in retuning hole 10 because it was difficult and basically a reversal of the draw and blow reeds and 10 blow bends are easy and expressive on standard tuning. Powerbender makes the upper end very expressive because of the additional draw bends and I was able to create many new-to-me phrases and licks. Also, to answer the question about switching back and forth between tunings, I had very little trouble with that and still can reliably play Powerbenders. I think there is no perfect tuning - they all have drawbacks. For me the Powerbender 4-5 draw was a problem because the chord and warble were unusable and so I went back to using standard tuning, but I do miss some of the sweet licks I was able to get on the upper end.
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Gnarly
1788 posts
May 04, 2016
5:16 PM
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@eebadeeb I'm sure that's why Kitt said Richter was the best tuning, that there is no perfect tuning, and that Richter has its virtues. We didn't discuss this issue tho, and it's certainly useful to get everyone's take on this.
So you don't use PowerBender at all now?
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eebadeeb
104 posts
May 04, 2016
5:29 PM
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Gnarly, I have a couple tunes I play on an A harp that I keep tuned Powerbender. I can get thru the tunes on a standard using OB's but they are just so much smoother on the Powerbender. I think the best way to try Powerbender is to use blu-tack to tune down to it. Just don't bother retuning 10. Then it is easy to go back to original tuning just by removing the putty.
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ValleyDuke
26 posts
May 04, 2016
8:44 PM
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What do I do to make sense of the top end of the harp? Well, I only play in 2nd position, no over blows, so I use natural minors and melody makers to help me.
But it's in the top end where the octaves are. I'm like a prog rock guy, and I don't feel like I've reached my goal in a song until I make it into those upper octaves. Plus, I like a modal sound, even though I'm only playing in 2nd.
It's not the most original way to play, but it's naturally pleasing, and still gives me plenty to practice and work on.
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ValleyDuke
27 posts
May 05, 2016
12:46 AM
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@STME58 "...I will almost always inadvertently modulate to first position when I go for the high end."
I like this sound and technique - I call it fake 1st position, but the point is to modulate to a major scale on the top end - it's very expressive, and then let's you return to a dirty blues scale when you're done. You go out of the box, and then come back in.
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MindTheGap
1568 posts
May 05, 2016
1:33 AM
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ValleyDuke - A different take on '1st position at the high end' is more that you are changing to use the notes of the IV chord, and just with bends you have access to lots of useful notes: major, minor and blue. Nothing fake about it :)
It's nice on several levels: firstly it emphasises the change to the IV chord, secondly you get the bending expression, thirdly you get the useful chromatic notes.
When I first started looking at the top end, I was expecting to find examples where people used the easily available Mixolydian scale - over the 1 chord I mean. This seemed like it would be natural as it has the flat 7th. But I didn't find anything, not for blues anyway. I guess it sounds too straight. I believe it is used in 'rock harp', seems typically to be lots of super-fast, fluid runs.
What you mention, the 'playing something lighter up top, then return to gritty blues' vibe, I hear that more where people use runs and phrases from major pentatonic scale at the top, then drop down to growly blues notes below. I like it too, and it's very 'harmonica'.
In terms of the OP question: making sense of the top end. There's definitely a style of playing where you treat the low end as home and the top end is a special place. Alt-tunings and OB have busted that apart and it's wonderful hearing people play the instrument as a seamless whole. Personally I think that's a choice, rather than the natural end point.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 05, 2016 3:19 AM
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ValleyDuke
28 posts
May 05, 2016
1:46 AM
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@MTG Yes! You described it much better. The reason I call it fake 1st position is because I'm bending notes all over the place, like you said. It's a nice pause on the IV before you get back to business, and wrap-up the song.
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MindTheGap
1569 posts
May 05, 2016
1:55 AM
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:) It's good to name the parts, so I'm happy to go for:
1. Fake 1st Position: consciously switching to 1st position to play over the IV chord.
2. Light and Shadow: alternating between major pentatonic phrases up top, then dropping down to nasty blue notes, all on the I chord.
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ValleyDuke
29 posts
May 05, 2016
3:00 AM
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@MTG That's great, and I think it also reflects the call-and-response nature of the blues. If you're a genius like Jason Ricci, you can basically be playing 2 songs at the same time.
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SuperBee
3693 posts
May 05, 2016
5:54 AM
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I'm still learning how to play, and especially the top...mostly I play first position up there, because for blues that just seems to be what the top end is suited to, and I love it so much. First position blues is the most fun I've had on a harp.
I have a second position thing which is pretty much a descending minor blues scale using either 6ob or heading straight to 3' after the 7blow...listen to the signature lick of zappa's 'advance romance' to get the idea of what I'm doing there...no more credit at the liquor store...
And 2nd pos major pentatonic, I practice that a fair bit
And 3rd pos
And because of playing first up there I've also paid some attention to 12th and the chord tones...5draw, 6draw, 7 blow, 8'blow, 9draw, 10 draw, 10 blow...
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Komuso
664 posts
May 05, 2016
8:18 AM
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Great series of tips on this from DB, starting with -> Playing above Hole 6 - Transition
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Komuso's Music Website
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HarpNinja
4228 posts
May 06, 2016
12:01 PM
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I started offering Skype lessons and everyone who has responded has asked for content on this exact topic. The high end of the harp rules!
Two conceptual hurdles for the vast majority of harp players regarding the high end of a richter harp:
1. You have to transpose licks from the bottom octave making it difficult to use the high end.
2. There are missing notes.
To address the first point, you should embrace the harp for what it is, not what it isn't. Why play the same licks and patterns across three octaves? Why not add flare and new vocab instead?
And to the second point, the vast majority of blues songs are over dominate 7 chords. The high end has a complete Mixolydian mode, which fits perfectly over the high end. While I overbend and get those extra notes, you don't have to play the flat third or fifth in every phrase. Going back to the precious paragraph, you have a lot you can do without those two notes...especially since you probably aren't going to live up there.
I view the harp as starting in the middle octave and not the bottom. That alone makes me phrase in a different way than most blues players.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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JustFuya
914 posts
May 06, 2016
9:11 PM
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I had a severe problem sustaining a 3 draw bend at the end of a phrase on a short solo. Honk! I wound up using 2 harps for the recording and it turned out fine. Done.
But it bugged me enough to look for another solution while I continued to practice something I should be able to do without tricks. There was a bit of talk about MM tuning at the time so I gave it a go without doing the math. A shot in the dark for this theory challenged player. It shifted the feeling of the piece but all the required notes were there.
I felt a little better but I was still not satisfied. So one day, while goofing around with a 270 chromatic, I discovered that each and every required note was right there without using the button. So I asked Greg Jones, who had supplied the MM, if there was a tuning that matched this behavior. He told me there was and that it was called SOLO tuning.
I didn't take the plunge but if the need ever arose again (unlikely) I would try it. I never hear this tuning discussed or maybe it has another name. Does anyone use it?
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nacoran
9054 posts
May 06, 2016
10:23 PM
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I'm still waiting for a Turboslide that works on draw notes.
Actually, to be fair, working on the blow notes does change the bends you have access too, but one of the things I really like about it is the push button works much more like a regular bend than pushing the button on a chromatic, and using it like a whammy bar gives an effect I haven't been able to replicate on a regular diatonic.
I'm not sure what technical difficulties adding a button for the draw reeds would involve. I suspect part of the problem is getting the magnets close enough to the reeds (since the reeds, in effect, sit higher compared to where the magnets sit on the top reed plate if you were to mount them the same on the draw plate as you do on the blow plate.)
Using the button on the high notes essentially gives you your blow bends, so it's a little redundant on top (although it's great for bending chords really easily). A draw button would give you the overblow notes up there.
JustFuya, I think my tremolo is solo tuned. Another way people attack chromatic playing without a chromatic, of course, is two harps. Brendan had a clip he posted once here of a someone in Asia, where I guess it's more common, switching insanely quickly between two harps on the fly. He had it gripped so that it was effortless. I think, actually, that it may be one of the reasons a lot of tremolo harps have a different cover style. Most diatonics have that ridge along the back that you rest your finger on, but no tremolo I've played has had it. Since you essentially rest the two harps on top of each other that ridge actually makes it harder to play that style, unless you have big hands. (Or, if you take to harps, take the bottom cover off of the top one and the top cover off the bottom one and put a third comb between them backwards and use long screws you can make a frankenharp that is two in one. You can either use two consecutive harps, like a C and C# to get chromatic, or two harps apart by a fifth to do some neat key switches.)
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Nate
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MindTheGap
1579 posts
May 07, 2016
2:21 AM
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I have tried what Gnarly mentioned at the top, tuning the 7D from the major to the minor 3rd, which I remember rightly also gives you the major 3rd as blow bend. That does seem useful gateway to the top.
I've mentioned this before, but stringed diatonic harps (you know, 'harps') can have cams that change the pitch of a string by a semitone. Surely someone can think of a similar system for the harmonica? I'm thinking of something you set before you play.
How about a tiny weight that you can add to the reed tip. (Any mention of Blutack or Duct Tape is automatically disqualified). Or a little device that presses on the reed and changes it's pitch.
I wouldn't buy such a thing though, I'm stuck on Richter.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 07, 2016 2:23 AM
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MindTheGap
1580 posts
May 07, 2016
3:02 AM
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...but back to reality and some actual notes.
One bit of scale I've been trying recently may be of interest, although strictly it only dips its toe into the upper register. But at least it does cross the 6-7 divide.
It's a thing on the IV chord you often hear in those fast harp boogie instrumentals: 4+ 5+ 6+ 6 7+. Which gives the boogie scale degrees 1, 3, 5, 6, 1 (8ve). I like to name things to remember them so I call this the 'Tee' because of the shape.
Even in non-boogie format, after a bit of growly work on the I chord, again it's a change up to a lighter sound for the IV chord change uses phrases based on these notes. Although the blow notes are plain, you have the 6D to inflect for effect.
I give you The IV Chord Tee.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 07, 2016 3:07 AM
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nacoran
9055 posts
May 07, 2016
2:08 PM
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Mind the Gap, that is kind of what the Turboslide does. A button moves a set of magnets near the steel reeds, which changes the frequency that they swing at, changing the note.
A related experiment I've played with is using toothpicks. On an open backed harp you can put a toothpick carefully in against a reed and by sliding along the length of the reed you can raise the pitch virtually as much as you want, but it's a finicky technique and I think you'd have to but in a bunch of hours to get proficient enough to use it as anything more than a novelty, although a string player might get the hang of it faster. The Bahnson did something similar, blocking reeds, essentially automatically choking them for you to enable overblows (although I guess they could snag reeds sometimes?) and Winslow has his discreet comb which isolates each reed to make overblows easier (and give you a wider range of them, I think?). Theoretically you could have something that pushed something down onto the reed at an exact spot to act like a finger on a string. It would be very finicky to make, and I think you'd need to have the pressing mechanism set in slightly different spots for each reed, let alone for each key, but if you could get it to switch you from, say C to C#, you'd have your chromaticism.
On the chromatic end, I've wondered about punching a plate to replace the slide where one note was blocked on each hole. You could have a different plate for each key (or scale) and just slide it it. You'd still have to start on different holes but it would be a way to make sure you only were hitting the right notes in the scale by blocking the 'bad' notes. Kind of cheaty, but if you needed to fake chromatic proficiency on tunes in a hurry it might not be a bad approach. You might even be able to rig it up so the slide still moved the plate to give you your accidentals. Unfortunately, the pattern of draws and blows gets a little screwed up in the process, but someone might be able to construct a tuning that would work better for it.
I've also daydreamed about a magnetic spring to replace the swing of the reed. Basically, instead of a reed that bends you'd go with something stiffer, set on a set of pins, kind of like a teeter totter. The 'sounding' end would be much longer and the short end would have a pair of magnets facing opposite polarity on it, swinging in a chamber that had magnets to oppose it. If you fine tuned it you could, in theory get a 'reed' that didn't bend (and therefore didn't wear out), and you could probably adjust the pitch by adjusting the height of the chamber magnets. Probably way too finicky, especially at that scale, although I guess watchmakers work at that scale. I suspect a swinging reed with nearly no bend would sound very different though. I suspect the deformation during the swing is what gives the harmonica all it's wonderful overtones, but I could be wrong.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Frank101
158 posts
May 07, 2016
3:34 PM
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As far as using the high end of the harp, just listen to JR.*
As far as the diversion this thread has taken, into modifying the reeds while you play - just take the cover plates off, you can do all kinds of stuff! (A Steve Baker idea.)
*Jimmy Reed, of course. Who did you think I meant?
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Gnarly
1792 posts
May 08, 2016
9:30 AM
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Uh, Mooncat . . .
But it could be just me.
Nah.
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Brendan Power
503 posts
May 09, 2016
10:48 PM
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Your question "What do you do to make sense of the top?" has spawned an interesting thread, Gary. The reversed breathing pattern in the top octave of Richter tuning does present a challenge. I guess the two main responses are 'deal with it' and 'change it'.
Players like Howard Levy, John Popper, Jason Ricci deal with it very well, and provide inspiration for others who prefer to stick religiously with a harmonica scale layout designed by 19th Century Germans for 1st position melody playing. It's amazing what they and others do with the unaltered Richter tuning, especially in the top end - hats off!
However your point that the top end of Richter tuning is not so user-friendly is valid. It's a bit like if you had a split fretboard on guitar, where the lower octaves had strings with EADGBE bass to treble, and then at a certain point the arrangement flipped and the higher range strings would be EBGDAE treble to bass.
Of course players would learn to deal with it and probably find all sorts of cool quirks of the flipped string arrangement, but it would undeniably be a lot tougher to master in the high range than the standard guitar. Up there you can play the same fingering and licks as lower down, only needing to adjust finger spacings and pressures for bending etc - not master an entirely new note pattern that seems counterintuitive as well.
While I genuinely admire the skill and dedication of those great players to pure Richter tuning, when I started learning how easy it was to alter reed pitches it seemed just plain dumb not to optimise the harmonica scale for the music I wanted to play. Why try and force blood out of a stone when you could be eating a banana instead?
Most players love and feel comfortable with the breathing pattern in the lower two octaves: blow note low, draw high in each hole. Because that's where we do most of our meat and potatoes playing that reed arrangement gets ingrained. Having to switch in holes 7-10 to the opposite breathing pattern is a hurdle that puts many off doing much in the top end - as several posts on this thread attest.
That's a pity, as the top octave is very expressive and a lot of fun! It's also really easy to master - if you change the tuning to follow the familiar blow/draw pattern of the lower 2 octaves.
For anyone wanting to keep the best of Richter plus easy top octave playing with soulful draw bends everywhere, I'd recommend giving my PowerDraw tuning a test run. It is pure Richter holes 1-6, plus the top end of PowerBender holes 7-10. All the classic licks you play in the lower two octaves you do exactly the same. But now when you get to hole 7 and up you keep wailing on the draw notes, and those familiar licks work virtually the same up there.
It's good for traditional tongue-blocking too, as the draw and blow splits are the same distance apart and make musical sense, either pure octaves or logical double stops.
PowerBender is a lot more radical, requiring re-learning of the middle octave. It's my preferred tuning because of the easy draw-bend chromaticism, but PowerDraw is a much better choice for traditional blues players who want to keep what they know and love, whilst adding easy top octave wailing to their arsenal. Here's the tuning for anyone who wants to try it (blow note to the left):
PowerDraw Tuning (C harp)
1CD 2EG 3GB 4CD 5EF 6GA 7AB 8CD 9EG 10AC
(For those who don't like to retune harps, Seydel will make the PowerDraw, and I sell an own-brand model on my website).
It's one good option for making your harp more user-friendly in the top octave, but there is nothing to stop any harmonica player with basic reedwork skills creating their own custom tuning. The knowledge of how to retune reeds is widely available. After a bit of practice it's easy and fast: using solder and a polishing wheel I can change a Richter harp to PowerBender in under 15 minutes including reassembly and fine tuning. That's 10 reeds altered; PowerDraw is only 6.
But what reward you'll get for that small amount of time spent! The formerly alien top octave will suddenly become your best buddy :)
Last Edited by Brendan Power on May 10, 2016 12:03 AM
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SuperBee
3709 posts
May 10, 2016
3:35 AM
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Thanks for that Brendan. I've really been enjoying playing the traditional 1st position top end but I'll build a power draw tuning harp and try it out. I think I'll just replace reeds rather than retune them in situ
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Tyler
35 posts
May 10, 2016
7:14 AM
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I really like the simple pentatonic layout of the top octave on Power tunings. Harp is then broken into chord octave, melody octave, and pentatonic. I've been thinking of trying PowerDraw to get the 4,5 interval back, but having the second position tonic as a draw note in hole 6 is awesome (PowerBender).
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