I'm new to this forum so hi everyone. Just thought I would tell you about a problem I'm having with a promaster. Its in the key of A and the third hole draw is rubbish. Its been like it from new. I spoke to Howard Johnson. SUZUKI EUROPE LTD about it and they were not exactly helpful, in fact they said "should have bought the valved model". Anyway, I probably have nullified the warranty, not that that was worth anything apparently. I have flattened the comb, de-burred the reed plates etc and no difference. Tried all variations of read gapping and still its more or less unplayable.
Suzuki makes some very good products, including the Promaster. Your problem is not uncommon though. Many of the Promasters had quality control issues with the comb. There were visible saw marks on them that could cause air leaks. Here is a recent thread on the topic.
Suzuki does have a good warranty. We have a Warranty center here in San Diego and If I have a reed fail within a year they fix it for me. The harp tech at this center is a frequent contributor to this site.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 21, 2016 11:35 AM
That's me! The valve on hole 3 is over the draw slot, to allow you to blow bend 3, so that wouldn't help you . . . I like to think that the Suzuki line is a good quality, but of course, you are out of my jurisdiction, and it's tough to fix harps over the internet. Try a different comb if you can, our models have parts that are largely interchangeable.
Bobbyboy: Promaster combs are often unflat and are next to impossible to fix. I reckon that's the cause of your troubles. But once the harp is airtight, it should play very well.
I'm looking into making ties with a European retailer. You may soon be able to get one of my combs without having to worry about shipping troubles.
Do you currently make a comb for the promaster then? I couldnt find it on your website. You dont actually say what your combs are made of? Thanks for the advice. I bought this harp because I fancied a metal comb. Nobody seems to make a metal replacement.
I gave up on the promaster and tried the bluesmaster, much much better and for less money. I also bought an aluminium comb from Bluemoon for my Golden melody and am really very pleased with it, thanks for the tip.
Harmonicas are a lot like people. You cannot make gross judgements about any particular brand or make of harmonica based on a sample of one.
I have a full set of Promasters that are ten years old. They all play beautifully and I've never had any problems. Never had to replace a single reed. They stay in tune too. Combs are nice and flat with no saw marks. My only gripe is the galvanic reaction I get when I tongue block. So I don't do dat with these harps. But they play so well that I am willing to put up with that and just lip purse. They're equal tuned so they are my go-to harps for fiddle tunes and such.
You get a lemon, send it back to the manufacturer or where you bought a flaky harmonica ~before~ you try to correct the problem yourself. So far as I am aware, most manufacturers will stand behind an OOTB defective harmonica. Suzuki America has the most liberal warranty policy out there. One year! Nobody else does that. I think Gnarly will replace a reed even if you muck it up trying to "fix" it.
Right now, if someone stole my dozen Promasters, I'd replace them without hesitation. For my target use of bluegrass and fiddle tunes, I know of no better harmonica. As or more responsive than any stock harp I've played. I half-valved them and gapped them once and I've never turned back. Certainly superior to Bluesmasters in almost every respect.
At least that's the way I see it.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on May 08, 2016 2:35 AM
Can we assume there has been a fall in quality over the last ten years then. My comb looked as if it had been cut out with a hacksaw! IF you lost them and replaced them all now with new ones I would wager there would be a few lemons in the batch. You are right though, I should have returned mine before I fiddled with it but I thought maybe just gapping would cure it but no. It sounds like your Suzuki rep is looking after you chaps very well. Here in Britain its another story. I could have kept mine and just used it for 1st position folk etc but I bought it for blues and blues it wouldnt do where as the bluesmaster does. What more can I say? Thanks for your thoughts though, I have valued all the comments on this. Keep playing that bluegrass!
Michelle, BobbyBoy and Andrew – Thanks for the plug. Much appreciated.
I have replaced a lot of the aluminum ProMaster combs with my customs it does make a big difference. I’m absolutely positive that installing one of Andrew’s combs would also improve your ProMaster as well.
Here’s why. Suzuki cuts their ProMaster combs the same way Hohner cuts their Marine Band combs. They start with a block of material that is the proper length and width for the respective comb. In the case of Suzuki, Aluminum and with Hohner, Pear Wood. The block of material may be a foot, 2 feet, I dunno long. The channels which will from the reed slots are cut lengthwise in the material. That is very easy to prove. The bottoms of the slots have squared off corners. That means a flat bottomed end mill cut the slots on the vertical axis with the resulting slots having perfect right angled squared off inside corners. This is not possible if an end mill cuts the slot along the horizontal axis. You cannot get a perfect square inside angle because the end mill itself has a radius. When my machinist cuts my combs he cuts the slots with a larger end mill because it removes the material faster and then he uses a much smaller end mill (with a smaller radius) to clean up the inside edges. This will reduce the radius of the inside corner, but there is still a radius. OK – so back to the ProMaster and Marine Band combs. After the slots are milled the individual combs are then sliced off one at a time like a loaf of bread. I doubt they use a hack saw. My guess is a table saw because the saw marks that are left behind have a circular pattern. And that is really the main point. There is nothing wrong with cutting combs that way but nether Suzuki or Hohner make any effort to remove the saw marks. It is these saw marks that are the culprit in making the ProMaster leaky – if it is leaky. That’s not always the case, but I can tell you from experience that it can be frustrating working with these combs. You can flat sand the ProMaster comb to remove the saw marks but then you are removing the anodized layer and will expose the raw metal. For some, that is not a big deal but for others, brass reed plates mounted to aluminum combs with steel screws makes a perfect battery and people like Michelle can taste or feel the galvanic reaction. My combs are all milled individually so the flat surface that mates with the reed plate is milled flat by the machine. I then polish them to remove the milling marks which is one of the reasons people have had good results from my combs. No doubt Andrew follows the same strategy and produces equally good results.
---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on May 13, 2016 12:00 PM
Hmm. Dangit. I was sworn off of Aluminum combs. The My ProMeaster makes a really nice paperweight. The only aluminium combs I ever even half way like were the 1847 Nobles.
But given that very informative post, I just may have to give one of your a try.
The polishing is the most intriguing part. Alot of Aluminium combs have sort of an unfinished almost porous feel. A nicely polished one with a good coating sounds really tempting.
I got the same reaction from mine. It doesnt shock me. It just tastes bad. Similar to a very mild 9V battery effect. ----------
Hey, Tom - Something you said gives rise to a question. If I am encroaching, just ignore it.
If you polish your combs to remove the milling marks after they're anodized, you would remove some anodization just as one would in flat sanding and polishing a Suzuki comb, no?
If you sand and polish and ~then~ have the combs anodized, that may be another reason why your combs are so much more resistant to that annoying Galvanic effect. I suspect that anodization is more effective on a highly polished surface than a rough one.
As to using the element for combs, I really enjoy playing an aluminum-combed harp. I think aluminum is pretty close to an ideal material for combs if they are treated properly. The great comb debate has reared its ugly head again over on Harp-L. People disagree whether different comb materials produce tones different enough for listeners to tell them apart. But I think everyone is in agreement that the player can "sense" different comb materials. Aluminum combed harps are tonally "brighter" to to my ears, they transmit more vibrational energy to my hands and lips, and I believe they "cut" better or are louder to my ears as a player. I really need to hear myself play in an acoustic setting. Lastly, they have a nice heft to them.
It's too bad that Suzuki's hack jobs and poor anodization have given aluminum a bad reputation as a comb material. Aluminum is a machinist's dream. It couldn't be too much more expensive to properly manufacture an aluminum comb than, say, one made of bamboo.
But, I'll defer to the expert.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
yeah i suppose thats why it has a poor reputation...if it does. seems to me plenty of people like it. i'm not among them, but i dont like metal combs. brass, aluminium, not for me thanks. i dont care how well made they are, they dont appeal to me. i dont like the weight, the sound, the feel. i dont understand why people like the weight. i understand it if you are going to throw something, but this is something you hold up to your face...Greg Heumann is busy making wooden mic shells and cutting a couple ounces out of shure stick mics in order to lighten the load, and people are simultaneously liking the harp to feel heavy.
ive had my share of promaster gripes. im still not really a fan but i put a zajac comb in one and it was so close to becoming acceptable i ordered 2 more combs
Michelle. My aluminum combs are tumbled with pumice polishing stones before they are anodized. I don't flat sand them after they are anodized. All my other materials are flat sanded and polished on a granite surface plate. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Tom, I would not expect the tumbling to have much effect on the flatness. The flatness would come from the milling or fly cutting. I am kind of surprised they are not flat sanded or Blanchard ground after milling but before anodizing. Of course this goes back to a common question to which we don't really have an answer, "How flat is flat enough?".
Have you ever had a comb that was milled flat in its fixture, but warped when you removed it from the clamps because there were stresses in the material you removed by milling?
That was a problem I had to deal with on 48" long aluminum extrusions that were milled to make a guide for a plotter carriage. We had to develop a clamp that held the part without twisting it so that it would not twist back after you un-clamped it. Sometimes even this did not work because of the internal stress in the part. One thing that did work, but it was too cumbersome for production. Was to clamp the machined part that had twisted to a straightening fixture and then put the whole thing in an annealing oven. The annealing removed all of the internal stresses in the part and when you unclamped it from the straight steel fixture, it stayed straight. It had another undesirable effect of leaving the aluminum dead soft.
@bobbyboy, if you have a bluesmaster that plays well and a promater that does not, you could swap the reed plates and if the promaster plates play well on the bluesmaster comb, you will have a good indication that the comb is the problem. IF the blusmaster plates have problems on the promaster comb, you will have further confirmation that the comb is the problem. Blusemaster, Promaster and Firebreath reed plates are interchangeable. The difference is in the plating and the quality of the reed work. Not sure about the temperament.
My Bb Promaster is one of my favorite harps. It does have one of Tom's aluminum combs and firebreath reed plates, so I guess it is not really much of a Promaster, but it started out as one. Kind of like the old story about the actual axe Washington used to chop down the cherry tree, it's just had the handle replaced twice and the head replaced. :-)
Ha, my optimism was misplaced! New comb worked ok on the B harp, but the Db has bigger issues. The comb has a few saw marks but it's pretty straight and flat. The reeds however... 8, 9, 10 draw are all off-centre, as is 3 blow. 4 draw is over 1mm short in the slot. All the reeds are sitting high at the root and dive in tip first. The number stamped on the plate is 030723...I guess that's a date of manufacture. It's a NOS harp, from before Suzuki were welding reeds. Someone in this thread suggested Promaster quality had declined...well maybe, but I think it probably improved a lot since 2003 when this one was made. I dunno if I can even be bothered working on this Db...I've got a nice Db sp20, it's not like a key I use a lot... I can't believe how much they charge for these gold promasters.. They must be real gold
regarding STME58's suggestion, I didnt know they shared the same plate, also I thought the bluesmaster had brass reeds. Anyhow I sold the promaster on so cant try that experiment. Thanks for the suggestion though. Maybe now I should try a new aluminium comb in the bluesmaster. Does anyone make such a thing?
Yes,blue moon makes an aluminum harpmaster /bluesmaster/delta frost comb. It is fantastic. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on May 14, 2016 9:17 AM
STME58 - to answer your question, yes, occasionally I do have a comb that will warp as soon as I have taken it off the vice. That is a whole other conversation but suffice to say, it pays to have some running the CNC machine who knows what they are doing. Much of that is preventable. Some of it is not. Therefore, you have to choose your materials wisely. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
"it pays to have someone .... who knows what they are doing" I can't think of too many endeavors where this in not the case! I think many of people believe that because a machine is computer controlled, no skill is required, but this is far from the case.
There may be a material difference between the fire breath Promaster and Bluesmaster reed plates but they are mechanically interchangeable. I have a Bluesmaster with a set of half valved Promaster plates and it works well. These there harps are the only Suzukis I have switched plates on but I understand that the interchangeability among Suzuki harps goes much further.
What I am finding out about Suzukis is that they take a little time to be broken in. I can judge harmonicas once I properly gapped them and what it feels like to hold the bends in the 3 hole draw and the 2 hole draw. Once these bends, especially the 3 bends located in the 3 hole draw, feels stable I know that the harmonica starts to becomes very playable. I also had to change out a lot of Promaster, Manji & Hammond combs, it really made a big difference. So what are we really paying for?
I admit to a high degree of bias on this subject. I believe that there is a strong current in the direction of a modular approach to building harmonicas. Hohner has the MS-Series. They have added some extra cover plate holes to The Rocket so you can use Marine Band Deluxe covers if you wish. Virtually all the Suzuki diatonic reed plates have the same footprint and are interchangeable. The only issue is that the harps built with recessed combs like the HaroMaster don’t have grooves for the cover plates so you might run into a small issue there. All the Sydel 1847 models have interchangeable parts as do the Session harps. And you can use 1847 covers on Session chassis if you like. For a beginner, custom designing a harp out of compatible components is perhaps over their heads. But for those who have a bit more experience and have developed some preferences, the ability to mix and match components is a plus. Custom combs are a big part of this. As a Suzuki Dealer, I buy reed plates and covers as components and use my combs to build harps. Modular designs also make it easier to find spare parts if/when something breaks.
One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies is Tuco at the Gun Shop from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. I am hoping to reproduce this scene only with harmonicas.
I hate to disagree with Tom from blue moon, he has treated me well,mbut beginners like interchangeable components too. I have played with a few different harps during the searching for the right harp phase that all beginners go through, and liked and disliked a few for different reasons, and sometimes the reasons change over time. By mixing and matching components I was able to build what I thought looked, sounded and felt good. The reed plates from my least favorite harp became the core of my most favorite. The biggest disadvantage of all that is that now I know it's not the harp,mand maybe I should play and practice more than tinker.
Crawforde - I don't mean to imply that beginners should not take advantage of modular designs but most beginners don't know the difference until they have a few miles under their feet. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Good point Tom. And correct. I sometimes wish I had managed to do a mile or two in a straight line. My path looks like a bowl is spaghetti ! Anyway I'm enjoying it, and I hope I'm picking up more than I am aware of while I wander. Doing a bit of comb and cover swapping and minor tweaking actually taught me more about where the notes lay than copying licks or following tabs... For many of us getting inside, and messing about, even if we kill the harp, is a good step. And it does feel better playing a harp I put a new comb on and tweaked than something right out of the box. It's more personal perhaps.
Well, considering that not long ago, most of the popular harmonicas were assembled with nails or "pins". The Marine Band Deluxe was not introduced until 2005. The original Golden Melodys used pins to hold the reed plates to the comb and even the covers in place. There weren't many guys making custom combs and there wasn't a lot of information about how to make your harp play better if you happen to get a lemon. No internet. So it was hit and miss. If you were lucky, you got a good harp. If you weren't, you didn't. And the the #1 manufacturer went thought a period when they allowed quality to decline. 20 years ago, it was tough for harmonica players. Today, you have your choice of several quality manufacturers. You have an abundance of information on the internet. And there are lots entrepreneurs who have started businesses geared to serve the harmonica community. It is a good time to be a harmonica player. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Just like in the movie clip Tom posted, the parts swapping does not have to stay within a brand. Seydel Session Steel covers fit nicely on Lee Oscar harps and visa versa.
I just stumbled across this video. It was posted on Facebook. It the Japanese version of How Harmonicas are Made. At about the 3:50 mark, you can can see how the combs are cut and it is exactly as I had described earlier.
Tom, Thanks for posting that. I have been curious about the Promaster comb process for a a while. In fact, I think I have discussed it with you on this forum in the past. What I wonder about is how the "loaf" is made. Seeing the whole "loaf" makes me think it is extruded. The large variation in section on the part would make it challenging to extrude, but that stock looks like something that came out of an extrusion press. I believe you had mentioned Vertical axis milling as a possibility and it definitely is, but it would required two different tools in the channels on either side of the center tine with the bump. A mill with a "waist" would leave a bump on either side of the channel being cut, you would then have to come in with a smaller straight end mill and take the bump off one side.
WHat do you think? Extruded, milled, or something else?
That clip has raised some eyebrows over on Facebook. Many people are fascinated by the way Suzuki makes their reeds. Others, like me, are amazed if not confused by the speed and technique of the technician who sets reed arc and gap in one swift move (~8:25). One person is fixated on how the lady in the test booth just wipes the harps clean with a cloth and insists that Suzuki harps should be shunned because of their lack of proper sanitization techniques (~11:50).
In light of the fairly recent thread on Reed Arc I'm mesmerized by the way that technician manipulates the reeds. It reminds me of Richard Sleigh's use of a pair of sharpened, wide-blade tweezers, except he pulls the reed along its length. The Suzuki tech uses what looks to me like a very sharp pair of needle nose pliers that she pulls along the length of the reeds, curling them much like you curl some ribbon with a pair of scissors.
At the risk of hijacking this thread, I'd be very interested on your takes on this reed arc/gap segment.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
STME58: Your mileage may vary. I quite definitively have worked on Promaster harps with CNC milled Aluminium combs. I have seen some with some slight manufacturing defects caused by the CNC milling process - specifically, the signature marks caused by the placement of where the bit starts and ends its journey. So perhaps Suzuki changed it's methods? Or uses both?
Michelle: I think the goal of shaping reeds in the factory is to achieve serviceable -if not good - results fast starting from a fairly consistent point. These reeds are newly minted and probably all have the same - wrong - shape. Specifically, I think she flexes the reed upwards like that because they are either uncurved or curved downwards (either way, unplayable) in their virgin state due to the way they are made and/or installed onto the plate.
I think those factory workers would mostly aim to correct any gross inefficiencies rather than fine-tuning for best response and tone. i.e. "can it play, yes or no?" The return on investment on time at the factory level plummets violently after but a few moments. ---------- Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Michelle is funny you say that, because its exactly what i thought. I shape my reeds the same way, like richard sleigh with the tweezers. His method on hot rod your harmonica is the best way ive found yet. I did buy a pair of tweezers like he uses, but i found something that works better for me.
I made almost every tool i need out of feeler guages and they all stay together like a swiss army knife.
What i did for tweezers is put a thin guage and thick guage right next to eachother in the set. Then used a bench grinder to grind them both flat in front at the same length. Then i put the thin one under the reed almost up to the rivet. Then pinch the two together wuth the thick on top. Lift the reed at about a 30degree angle, plink it a few times, then (as richard does with the tweezers) i flip it over and use the thick guage to lay it back down and make my offset in the root.
Then if it's too far down i have a whole other process that follows, but ... point is ... it works great that technique. And you CAN very really make your own tools.
P.S. I hate every comb suzuki puts out. ----------
STME58 - Good question. I will have to show this to my machinist and ask him what he thinks. Your point about the bump in the middle tine is well taken. It would not be a big deal to mill that shape. It would require a few extra steps but it would not be difficult. Assuming the channels are milled, it would require several passes to cut to the desired depth, especially on the longer slots like 1, 2, 3. With aluminum, you can't cut a slot that deep and that long with an end mill.
Michelle - I claim no expertise in the area of reed making. It is something am looking into but as is my habit, I will likely hire someone who is an expert rather that trying to become an expert myself. Like they say, "You need to know enough to be dangerous."
Andrew is correct in that the mission at the factory is to make the harp playable. I too was surprised to see the woman actually playing each harp but personally I think that is a good thing. There is a huge difference in a reed plate being played by a machine and a human being. I was also happy to see the technician using an electronic tuner when she tuned the reeds. Hohner uses a set of master plates and the technician just uses his ears.
Regardless, this video serves as a great illustration for what a competent aftermarket harmonica tech will do for you. If the comb is not flat, he will flatten it. If the curvature or the gapping of the reed is not correct, he will fix it. And when he tunes the harp, he will do so by playing it and he will test the harp by playing octaves, chords, bends and overblows to see how the harmonica responds to actual playing. These are things that are not rocket science but do take time so in a mass production environment are completely impractical because of the amount of time required. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Time--and care. That's why I recommend that everyone who plays an instrument become conversant with simple things that will improve their instrument. No one cares about it like you do!
I believe you had mentioned Vertical axis milling as a possibility and it definitely is, but it would required two different tools in the channels on either side of the center tine with the bump. A mill with a "waist" would leave a bump on either side of the channel being cut, you would then have to come in with a smaller straight end mill and take the bump off one side. 