Yes indeed. One unusual thing about the joyo is that it is capable of greater than unity gain, so it is possible, likely even, that on some of those settings you are hearing a mix of the VHT being overdriven as well as the Joyo.
Where I think the pedal excels is with the EQ and voice, and that it can act as an active signal boost/cut. I use it as a general purpose box that can match all kinds of things to all kinds of inputs.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 05, 2016 3:26 PM
Wow. I had no idea that was even a thing. I'm new to all this pedal stuff. This thing seems too good to be true. Imma snag one up soon before they wise up n start charging more. Lol. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!
You speak of overdriveing an amp. My hobby is back yard tube amp tech. When a tube amp is connected to a dummy load or speaker and a scope, it is obvious that every amp I ever worked on starts to distort at a very low volume level when a Hi Z harp mic is plugged in. The preamp will square wave long before max output is achieved. So, overdriven tone ( distorted signal) is pretty much the norm for harmonica thru a tube amp unless you roll the volumes back to clean. Just a point of interest...BN
I've been looking for 1 to use as the input on a 12 volt, battery powered, solid state, busker box I built, but it looks like mail order is the only option. I just can't find one in a brick & mortar store or Craigslist.
BN .. in the video he has the VHT set Pretty darn clean. Volume low. The gain boost is off. Its in low power (i think). And the low input is used. With a 57 with no line xfmr. (Info in the video discription)
I know you may have meant in principle tho. And i didn't know that so thanks for the info.
MTG .. I know you have a few other pedals .. harp break, etc. Do you prefer this to those?
Sorry if all this was talked about already. Until now i wasnt very interested in this pedal. Ill have to go back n search for the old threads. ---------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 05, 2016 9:20 PM
kHz - This pedal can boost the clean signal, considerably. So even with the SM57 with no IMT, and the pedal's 'Drive' pot fairly low, the 'Volume' pot can give a clean boost that's easily enough to overdrive an amp.
Now, I don't know coz I wasn't there, but it's perfectly possible that out of SOME of those settings, some of them are overdriving the amp - the resulting distortion could be a combo of the joyo and the amp.
You've heard the raw signal from the joyo in Martin's thread. I know you said you weren't impressed, but that's what it sounds like, without amp and speaker, and using the distortion of the Joyo with fairly high 'Drive' settings. It's not the same barky-gritty-crackly distortion that you can get from tubes. In my example I used it without an IMT specifically so I could get more movement on the 'Drive' pot, as there is so much gain available.
If you buy one, and use it with your VHT, you are likely get more interesting complex sounds out of it that used on it's own.
I prefer the Harp Break, but it's a different animal.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 05, 2016 11:02 PM
BN just said .. " starts to distort at a very low volume level when a Hi Z harp mic is plugged in. The preamp will square wave long before max output is achieved. So, overdriven tone ( distorted signal) is pretty much the norm for harmonica thru a tube amp unless you roll the volumes back to clean."
I was just pointing out that it wasn't a hiz mic and it was relatively clean.
Re harp break ... yea i suppose it is different.
Re Martins and other joyo samples. Well now that ive looked into it more, all those sounds coming from one pedal is pretty impressive. Espescially considering the price. None of them sounded bad. I just didn't get the hype is all. Needless to say i got it now. ...lol.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 05, 2016 11:08 PM
Sorry kHz, I don't mean to teach you to suck eggs :) I know you know about overdriving etc. And yes, that vid contains a big mix of sounds, including at the cleaner end.
What I've said sounds all a bit generic. But what I'm trying to emphasise is that this pedal is unusual in the range of sounds and signal levels you can get out of it. Quite different to anything I've come across anyway.
When you get one you'll see what I mean!
You see, you could use it just to 'voice' your mic. Or make it clean-boost to emulate a super-hot mic. Or tame an already super-hot mic to stop it overdriving your amp. Or set it as a 'lead boost' that gives just a little more volume or grit or both to kick on demand.
What it doesn't seem to be (unfortunately) is a direct replacement for a mic'd harp amp. Although some of the reviews suggest it is: for guitar on a cleanish setting. And with good evidence.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 06, 2016 12:53 AM
For the record I will add that you might be thinking that you can go HA -> Joyo. I try HB -> Joyo and I loose that treasured bitey-bark sound that I've paid for in the HB.
Everyone now and then I return to this configuration, hoping to find some settings that retain the bite-bark. Like searching for the lost chord. One day...
MTG dont be sorry. Teach away brother. I was just explaining my response. Im new to all this stuff still.
Re micd harp amp. I was hoping it would. But didn't have high hopes for it being true.
My first thought wasnt to use it in tandem with the harp attack/break, but i surely would have ended up trying it. 8^) I was thinking that playing with the right drive setting, etc. might be a alternative for the Harp Break.
The Joyo is a clone of the original Tech 21 Blonde that didn't have a speaker sim defeat. It has a lot of output and would hit an amp or PA pretty hard.
The pedal simulates a Fender 1x12 miked. That is VERY important to understand. The pedal sounds like a miked Fender 1x12 used in recording. That isn't as raw a sound as an amp in a room, IMO.
The pedal, unmodded, works well for harp because it is relatively dark. The treble can be cranked. It also breaks up very quickly. It is not a clean machine. It has a lot of output and can handle other pedals.
Cons are it does not have a buffered input. It has more gain than you need for harp. It has a compressed sound that lacks the upper mid rip that something like a tweed Champ (or HarpBreak) has. It probably works better with a dynamic mic than bullet due to the gain staging and input.
I've been working behind the scenes on a mod kit for this pedal that is very blues harp specific. I should have a demo version soon.
For the sake of ... completeness or whatever, I must report that I hade agressive feedback problems with the Joyo while rehearsing with a band in a smallish room, 15 m2 or thereabouts. (Pardon me if I´ve said this before.)
I´m an absolute bastard when it comes to PA settings and such, lost in the woods, and possibly that could have been a factor, since I tried it in another room afterwards with great success. Could go to pain level volume. It was also a heavier PA. Took it then to another rehearsal in a considerably larger room, some 40-50 m2 and it was impossible -- feedback city. But that PA is crap.
Mindthegap posted an interesting picture of his settings on the Joyo, with considerably lower "level", and that, I guess, means higher PA volume can be attained? I will try that soon. (Doing it here at home will get me instantly evicted.)
Long time forum reader here, de-lurking to share some information about the Joyo pedal.
As HarpNinja says, the Joyo pedal is a clone of the Tech 21 Blonde, with a couple of minor component changes. It also has a hard-wired speaker simulation unlike the Tech 21, which has a switch to bypass the simulation.
The speaker sim has the effect of applying an EQ curve to try and emulate (mostly) the top-end roll-off of a speaker cabinet. By running the Joyo into a speaker you're effectively getting double the roll-off, which is going to affect the sound in ways that might not be ideal.
If you've got a steady hand, a soldering iron and an inch or two of wire, it's an easy job to bypass the speaker sim in the Joyo. By using a SPDT switch, it's not much more complicated to make the speaker sim switchable. If anyone's interested, I can post instructions for doing that too.
It's also worth noting that there's nothing special about the overdrive part of the circuit in the Tech 21 / Joyo pedals. They use diode clipping, which is found in most overdrive pedals. There are a wealth of other pedals that can be used with harmonicas if the gain is on the low side. I've had success using a clone of a Zen Drive in front of a small amp for break up at low volume.
I don't mean to say the Tech 21 / Joyo isn't special, they're great. But if all you want is breakup/boost then other options are available.
bluethird - brilliant thank you. Thanks for coming out. Simple question: with the speaker sim removed, does it make it bark? :) If so it's soldering iron time. If not, I'll leave it be.
I'm not surprised it uses diodes for clipping, my understanding (which isn't much in detail) is it's how they are used in the circuit that counts. cf. the Big Muff Pi.
Martin - Obviously I don't know about your specifics but I think that the potential 'problem' with this pedal comes from it's strength - that there is so much gain available, it's easy to overwhelm (rather just overdrive) the input and whatever you plug it into. I can quite happily put this into the 'line-level' inputs on my PA, for instance.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 06, 2016 12:58 PM
Does it bark? Hmm, it's definitely got more top end, and IIRC more bass too, so it'll be a wider sound going into your amp.
Conventionally, you'd use a speaker sim if you're going straight to the PA, but bypass it if you're going into an amp. However, the Harp Break does not have a speaker sim, so if you like the sound of that direct, try bypassing it on the joyo.
In any case, the mod is easy to reverse (the 'resistor' that you have to remove is 0 ohms, so can be replaced by a short length of wire) if you change your mind.
You're right about the arrangement of the diodes being the most important part of the clipping circuit, but I'm not familiar enough with the different arrangements to be able to say much more than that. Most circuits seem to be some variation on the classic Tube Screamer. As they stand, Tube Screamer overdrives clip too harshly for harp, but substituting LEDs or Zener diodes can give a softer clip, better for harp. I believe this is what the Harp Break does.
Last Edited by bluethird on Apr 06, 2016 2:55 PM
Thanks. My use for it is direct to the PA, so I'm not going to dive in. If you had said it definitely barks and bites, then it would be different :) I'll take a note of your diagram though, and curiosity may take over.
Yes, the HB uses a pair of LEDs. Aside from the sound, I like the fact that they have one sticking out the top so you have a visual indication of the signal strength.
Myself, I've not found another guitar-distortion pedal that does the job. But there are many out there of course.
bluethird - Curiosity did take over, and quickly, and I did the mod. It's all to easy to equate 'something has changed' to 'it is better'. But initial results look promising. What I'm looking for is the sharp dynamic bite. So this example has a little tube amp first, mic'd up, then the joyo DI'd into the PC with a touch of reverb. The mic is a Superlux which has brittle, hollow timbre rather than that strong bassy sound everyone seems to want. At least in my hands, I probably can't cup it properly. I rather like it.
First impressions are that the modded sound is less compressed and more raw. Which is just what I want.
Experience has shown that home tests are all very well, but you have to try it in situ to see, so I'll do that.
Whatever, thank you again for the very clear info.
PS: It can do beefy too, e.g. with a bulletini and different settings.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 07, 2016 10:34 AM
So I tried it last night at a rehearsal. I set up the tube amp side by side with the joyo pedal + small SS amp, and switched about between them. I set up a long mic lead so I could roam around the room. Although of course not identical, I can tell you that they were 'functionally identical'. They had qualitatively the same response: similar basic sound, same grit, same response to drawing harder on a note. These are the things I'm after. And they started to feedback at about the same volume.
Here's a sampler I just did of an attempt at a more conventional sound. Some of these phrases I recorded while listening to David Barrett book-CDs, and while I make no claims for the playing, IMO the ampy sounds have close features. I've not included his versions in the 'public' sampler, copyright obviously.
bluethird - Yes indeed. Originally from London, born in Whipps Cross, but I've moved around a bit. You've really done me a favour with this mod.
kHz - No I didn't have a switch to hand. It's always possible I'm kidding myself and there's no difference. I can borrow an unmodded one and try. If it's an illusion, I will say!
Mojokane - Yes I think so. One of the odd things about this pedal is that the voice and drive pots work in tandem. It's almost like the 'voice' pot sets the range of the 'drive' pot. It's easy to end up with massive feedback-y gain. Padding the input would let you use the Champ voice and have good range on the drive. That is why in previous samples I used an SM57 without it's IMT. With a Hi-Z mic with VC, I can turn that down, but as discussed in the Mojopad thread, you have to remember the setting.
I've also got mods that can reduce either the input or output levels...
Reducing the output level is the simplest. Basically, if you put a resistor in series with the red wire (or replace the wire with a resistor) then the max output level is reduced, making the 'level' knob much more useful. The amount of reduction depends on the value of the resistor used. IIRC 100k Ohms will halve the output, 200k will be a third, etc...
Reducing the input level is a little more complicated, but even more effective. A strong mic will drive the unit much more that a guitar. By reducing the input level, the drive and character knobs have a larger usable (non-feedback) range. I'm in the office right now, but I can take some photos of the input mod tonight. It's basically a potential divider across the input jack socket. If you have a volume knob on your mic, you can simulate this mod by turning down the knob, it performs exactly the same function.
Mojokane, either of these mods should fix the output level, so no need for a mojopad or external attenuator.
MindTheGap, it could be fun to meet up some time and work through some of this. Getting a good amped sound seems to involve a lot of trial and error, so it could be good to share experiences. I've got a couple of mics, a small tube amp, and one pair of ears!
Last Edited by bluethird on Apr 08, 2016 12:56 AM
Sadly, I'm don't live in London now. (or happily, in many ways :)). If I did, then I'd probably been able to find a real live harp teacher within travelling distance, and wouldn't be doing this internet stuff :) Swings and roundabouts.
Yes it does seem to involve a lot of trial and error. In contrast, it's so easy for guitar, maybe it was the similarly difficult for guitar in the past.
I agree about padding the input. Although I found the delicate soldering required a bit tricky (those surface-mount resistors!!!), so myself I'd go for an external input attenuator. One where even I can apply solder to great big old-school resistors. Ones that I can see without a magnifying glass!
It strikes me that carrying an input attenuator in the gig bag would be a good idea for any wandering harp player. Then faced with any old guitar amp, you could at least have a go at playing through it, even if not ideal.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 08, 2016 3:09 AM
Ah that's more like it. Otherwise it feels like something from Fantastic Voyage where I, Donald Pleasence and Raquel Welch need to be shrunk to the size of a surface-mount resistor.
I've said it before, this is why the Lone Wolf kit is so good, because it's designed with harp signals in mind. When my ship comes in I want their Boogieman pedal. Buy it, use it. More music less soldering!
When I first started playing, people were talking about the Holmes Harp Commander, but I'm not sure if that's still current.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 08, 2016 3:01 AM
True, but, compare the price of a Joyo AS, and, say, a Behringer DD400 (a Boss DD3 clone) to a Boogieman, you're paying quite a lot for the convenience!
Nothing against a Boogieman, it looks like a great bit of kit.
Whilst a lot of guitar pedal are completely unsuited to harp, I think a lot can be make to work with a few simple tweaks.
That said, I always go back to just plugging my CM mic directly into my 5f1 clone, as that has the best sound to my ear.
That's right. I use a cheapo 'analog' delay (the joyo actually) as I could see no disadvantage. Although it works fine, even that isn't ideal as the available delay is really too long for harp - so the useful range of the pot is bunched up. I guess it's aimed at guitarists playing Comfortably Numb, rather than harpists wanting slap-back echo.
I think these days I can expect mass-market things like the Joyo (or anything aimed at guitar) to be extraordinarily cheap, and anything even vaguely specialist to be many times the price.
When I was young I used to go up to Denmark Street and play the guitars in the guitar shops. You'd hear these stories of whichever pro had been in, trying out every unit in the shop as then the quality control meant there was variation between components, and they organically picked the best one. It's not quite the same, but we seem to be in the realm of 'surprising discoveries'.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 08, 2016 8:03 AM
Just two 1 Meg Ohm resistors and one cut socket leg. Cut the leg under the resistor, before soldering the resistor. Don't cut any of the other legs. This will halve the input level, which seemed about right. Putting a 2 Meg Ohm across the leg will cut the level to a third. Cutting the socket leg is a bit tricky, but doable with a pointy mini screwdriver worked into the gap.
You can reverse this mod by removing the two resistors and using a small bit of wire soldered across the cut leg.
Last Edited by bluethird on Apr 09, 2016 3:28 AM
I'm not planning to post more clips. But I found a recording where tried the joyo directly into a PA powered speaker, so I can confirm that without the mod the sound is relatively compressed and distant, with the mod it is more immediate and raw. The recording itself process tends to smooth out differences that are much clearer in real life. Even with that, the difference is clear on the recording.
(Hence all though YouTube A/B comparisions where they say 'now listen to this awesome one' and it sounds roughly the same. I'm sure they are genuinely experiencing something that the listener is not).
Denmark street. Yes indeed. It was best to go there with no money.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 09, 2016 5:27 AM
OK, I'm reading this thread with much interest. Are you fellows using this pedal mainly thru a PA/SS amp or with a tube amp? I'm not much of a pedal guy but this thing sounds very versatile plus I like tinkering with electronics...BN
For me, the motive is to have an alternative/backup to a tube amp. So I'm trying it direct into the PC, into a SS amp and into the PA.
This afternoon I've been comparing (at home) the 5W tube amp vs the Joyo + powered PA speaker (i.e. ultra clean).
OK I might as well post these two as I've done them. Each on has tube first then Joyo->PA speaker. In a small room with an ambient mic a few feet away. No post-processing.
Lip Pursed
TB'd
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 09, 2016 9:48 AM
I don't have my headphones on me. But thru my phone speaker. I couldn't tell the difference on the first, but prefered the tube on the second.
I dig all the mods bluethird, thanks. Im gettin one of these for sure. At the price its just crazy not to have one. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 09, 2016 7:59 PM
I think it's inevitable that tubes would be best, since that's setting the standard. Especially in lab conditions. In the 2nd sample, I rather like the boxy sound of the pedal+PA. Down to matters of taste. For me, the fact that I can get that sort of sound through a PA speaker is very useful.
In the hurly-burly of a band, I found it pretty difficult to distinguish between them. In terms of objective features, they were the effectively the same: the cut, the basic sort of small-amp sound, the volume before feedback.
Also, I've only been comparing the joyo to one small tube amp, which has one voice with the option of more or less distortion. Whereas the joyo is capable of a range of voices.
Anyway thanks to Martin for restarting interest in this thing, and bluethird for the revealing the inner secrets.
Next step is to try and get a bigger-amp sound, putting it in front of a big, clean SS amp. Unfortunately I don't have a Bassman or similar to compare it to. So I won't really know if it's successful or not.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 10, 2016 1:03 AM
