This was a question I asked in another thread, but it deserved its own.
What would you say is the best resource for really getting into the notes of the chords in the 1-4-5? I really sucked about skipping all that kinda stuff initially. I mean i know the basics. How to count it, etc. And i can play along with it and Make it sound good. But im really just playing by ear. What i need is more along the lines of what your video was touching on snowman in the horn line thread. How to learn what notes for each chord and things of that nature. Alot of lessons seem to kinda glaze over this.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 27, 2016 7:58 PM
In its simpilist form a chord is made of 3 notes The root , third and fifth whether the third is minor or major determines whether the chord is major or minor
you can imply a chord by playing just the root and 5 like a bass player--think just about any country bass line or rock power chords ( they work over major or minor chords)
so an E major chord would be made up of E, G# and B C major chord is C, E and G
You can play the individual chord tones over its particular chord
If you wanna be able to play over the whole progression without following the changes-- you would then need to learn a scale that fits
The Jazz guys like Diggs can help u with that
A great book is "How music Works"- It can change your life
Music theory is time well spent-believe me- I learned the hard way
Taking apart harmonicas can be fun I guess but without music theory its like being able to soup up your car when you cant really drive
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Mar 28, 2016 6:58 AM
The I chord consists of the first, third and fifth notes of the scale. In G that would be G, B and D. The IV chord (we usually use Roman numerals to identify chords) consists of the fourth, sixth and first note of the scale. In G that's C, E and G. The V chord consists of the fifth, seventh and second notes of the scale. In G, that's D, F# and A.
In blues, we usually add a minor seven to each chord, even though some of those notes aren't in the diatonic scale, so each of our chords has (at least) four notes. The I chord adds the flatted seventh note of the scale, the IV chord adds the flatted third note of the scale and the V chord adds the natural fourth note of the scale.
Here are the chords in G:
I7: G B D F IV7: C E G Bb V7: D F# A C
Now let's find all these notes on the harp. Edit: SteveTech has done most of that for us in the post below.
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 28, 2016 8:41 AM
Here's a very simplified overview, based on a C harp in second position.
The I chord is a G chord. Its notes are G B D, or for I7 (G7) chord, G B D F.
If you look at your first five draw notes, they go DGBDF.
So for the notes of the I chord, suck.
The IV chord is C, the notes are C E G.
The entire row of blow notes is CEGCEGCEGC
So for the notes of the IV chord, blow.
(You can add bends to get the Bb that will give you a IV7, or C. You'll find it in any harmonica note chart.)
The V chord is D, or D7, which is trickier. D F# A for D, or D F#, A C for D7.
This can be achieved most simply by playing a lick that includes a D. Again, check out a harmonica note chart to find the F# and A in the lower section of the harp.
@ goldbrick ... i most certainly would like an in depth book on it. I ve kinda been thru this thread before, but for a slightly different reason. the how music works book is a general theory book i assume? Not just for blues harp. Still would help alot im sure, but i would like it to be more harp specific. Ill check it out though.
Time & Steve ... yes that's what i really wanted was a simplified explaination. It seems people generally explain it, but don't go into to much detail as far as what increments make up each chord. Thanks. I took a screenshot of that. Lol. Crawforde was also kind enough to send me a chord cheat sheet. Which will help alot. And i have charts that break down what notes are on each harp. I just need to memorize what the scale increments for each chord are.
What about the 2 chord?
@RyanMortos. Thanks i started watching michael rubins videos, but i guess i didnt make it that far. Im going to get back to those, thanks for the reminder. Im easily sidetracked. Lol.
@Minor Blues. Yes ive used Dave's site a few times actually. I didn't like it at first. The structured learning was a bit heavy. However i think I'll check it out again, I may be ready for a bit of that now. I purchased his book on 3rd position, but didn't make it to far thru it. Think i need to get better at 2nd first so i can leverage my knowledge.
I dont know why, but whenever I try to learn music theory I can just feel my eyes glaze over and my brain turning off. So it takes me a while because i really have to force it down. It seems to be most effective to learn things in small chunks like this.
Thanks all. Really cleared some things up.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
The ii chord consists of the second, fourth and sixth notes of the scale. In G it's the Amin: A, C and E.
Often the ii will be a minor seventh chord. The ii7 chord consists of the second, fourth, sixth and tonic of the scale. In G it's the Amin7: A, C, E and G.
Do you start to see the pattern? Chords come from scales. You start somewhere in the scale and the add every second note until you have as many notes in the chord as you want. Another way to say that is that you add thirds on top of each other. That's why we call it tertiary harmony.
Let's build the triads from a major scale. The seven notes of the major scale are:
1: do 2: re 3: mi 4: fa 5: so 6: la 7: ti
This gives these triads:
I: do mi so ii: re fa la iii: mi so ti IV: fa la do V: so ti re vi: la do mi vii°: ti re fa
The vii° is a diminished triad. The rest are either major (the I, IV and V chords) or minor (the ii, iii and vi chords).
Once you have that done, you can build chords for any scale.
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 28, 2016 11:40 AM
How Music Works: The Science and Psychology of Beautiful Sounds, from Beethoven to the Beatles and Beyond Paperback – December 2, 2011 by John Powell (Author) 4.4 out of 5 stars 81 customer reviews
In my opinion one of the key aspects of playing Cross Harp is the intonation of the 3 draw note against 12-bar changes.
On the I: play the blue third, a little sharp of the minor third. Usually scoop it up rather than hold the note
On the IV: play the full semi-tone bend (Bb on a C harp)
On the V: play the full tone bend (A on a C)
I find this really gives a strong sense of the chord changes. Of course you can play other notes on the 3 draw against these changes, although best to avoid a note sharper than the Bb on the IV, and avoid the Bb on the V.
Lmao .... Time thanks for the second grade breakdown. Sadly the bottom half is Exactly what i needed. I just wasnt getting it. That really helps a ton. So easy to remeber that way. Imma go burn thru the rest of michael rubins vids. And try to get the rest ... lol.
@Minor I have his 3rd pos book. It's ok.
@Gambler. Nice advice on the 3 bends. Ill remember that aswell. That was another question i had. What's a good way to imply changes. That helps alot man thanks.
I just gotta quit bullishin and learn this stuff already.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 28, 2016 5:42 PM
ok I give up trying to post a diagram when I right click in dropbox there is no "select 'Copy Public Link'----only share or copy image--I give up
heres the link https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4stcjgk5b65rzq/harp%20.JPG?dl=0
killa heres one of my diagrams I made for me Its for crossharp
Note that I tune my 7 draw a ½ step down giving me the b3—[IN YELLOW]—yes I can hit it on the 6ob on almost all my harps—Tood Parrot does this --- I tried it and liked it the ob are in yellow--- od in yellow and’ my ‘7 draw in yellow—some ob ommited
suggest you make one for straight harp and 3rd pos LEARN THE #S NOT SO MUCH THE NOTES—Ive been workin on memorizing them for years -cuz Im slow and I enjoy life--
maybe start with correcting one error many harp players make in a minor song
Ie thrill is gone I play it in Cm [one note u want to avoid is the maj 3 on 3draw and 7draw whatever version u get--- lets say the more common Bbm— try this, do nothing but 3 draw unbent over the beginning of song when their on I and IV minor chords----it will sound like fingers on a chalkboard---now try the 1st bend on 3 the b3 and hold it---It fits
another trick--- when Im listening to bluesville---Ive determined the song is in say G I grab my C harp I draw 3 the maj3 --if it sounds horrible the song is minor or at least the I chord is No my ears aren’t good enough to tell by listening, but sometimes
LEARN THE NOTES TO AVOID IN MINOR—ALSO U MIGHT TRY A “NATURAL MINOR TUNED HARP” FOR THAT SAME SONG Thrill is gone—on a natural Bm tuned harp the [3 draw 7 draw] -- [2blow 5blow-8 blow] are all tuned a ½ step down –U wind up with the [I minor chord] and vamping sounds minor ---prefer it over 3rd pos cuz the notes line up the same and its easy to play with a rack—I pay ‘work song’ with a minor tuned harp==but don’t tell any one-kinda breakin tradition
@Killa_Hertz: I don't consider that stuff "second grade". Lots of music college programs have required courses in sight-singing, which use the do, re, mi syllables.
I have been thinking about this a little. There is no shortage of sources of information. There are different approaches to presenting the information but it all comes back to the same principles. The information is not the problem.
To me it seems that the real issue is in taking the info and turning it into knowledge. Personal knowlege.
As you said somewhere above KHz, something about chunks. If you asked me to teach you, and you wanted to learn some theory I think the first thing I would ask is whether you can name all the notes on your C harmonica. Like if we were face to face, could you tell me instantly the name of the note in any chamber I'd ask. If I said 5 blow, 2 draw half step bend, 9 draw, 8 blow bend, etc. Would you be able to just tell me or would you have to think about it, work it out? If you 'know' those notes, then we'd move on. If you have to think about it, I'd say go and learn those notes. If you need to learn them, there are a few exercises you can do that might help. But I dunno if you already have got that nailed. That's just how I'd approach things. An experienced teacher might see it differently. I think music is primarily a practical study. Anyway...how would you go with that?
Snowman ... good stuff. Especially like the trick of hitting the maj3 to find out if a song is in minor.
Time ... i wasnt refering to the "do re mi. "
"Do you see a pattern? Let's build the triads from a major scale. The seven notes of the major scale are:"
As i read it .. it sounded like a "hooked on phonics" lesson or something ... lol .. i was just jokin. .... thanks tho man. It was definatly an "Aha Moment" there. Seriously.
Bee .. I would fail horribly. I know CEG is all blow notes. DGBDFABDFA is draw. Bends ... ide have to work out. And i ONLY know the C Harp because of michael rubins lessons. I didn't cheat, i swear. Ask me any other harp and im lost.
I guess your right tho Bee. I just have to study it i suppose. It just feels like time could be better spent with technique. But i guess it's gotta be learned evenrually or your THAT GUY. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Time ... nah. Its not like that man. I thought it was funny.
Please dont make any assumptions. I do know some, but it's very little.
Im fine with second grade. Lol. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 28, 2016 10:41 PM
I reckon I would settle on learning something, so we'll you know it backwards, upside down etc. just know it. And something very basic like the note names for all the standard notes on the C harp might be a good place to start. You already know the blow notes are cegcegcegc and the draw is dg bdfa bdfa so you can play it end to end and back, naming the notes in your mind as you go. And you can name the chamber and direction at the same time. If you do that every day for a little while you will pretty soon just know that. And if you include all the bent notes that would be a good idea. Then you can do stuff like...thinking second position might be a good place to start... So if you play that harp in second, you are in the key of G. So do an exercise where you play all the G notes. And while you do it, remember that is the Root note of the G chord. And the G chord is the I chord when you are playing the C harp in second position. It won't take you long to learn this stuff, but do it regularly, just a couple minutes every day. You pick up the harp every day...just do those exercises...every time you do it you remind yourself...very soon you will just know that. Maybe you will just know that after 1 day. You'll know when you know. Maybe a real teacher will come along and give you a real practice, but imho that's what you need to do if you want to learn some about theory..I don't mean those specific things, I mean some practical exercises where you play consciously and learn the names and location of notes and start to build knowledge brick by brick.
but...whether its a waste of time or not is up to you. maybe it is. you dont have to learn to play by learning in an applied theory way. you can do it simply by playing what sounds good, by copying or by trial and error. whatever works best for you. you keep asking about this basic theory stuff so seems like you're interested...all i wanna say really is you can talk it up forever but you wont get far with it until you start applying it...when you are playing there is no time to think much about it....you have to know it, and the way to know it is through applying yourself to practice it. you dont have to practice it all day, just practice it a bit everyday, and when you have it, set out to learn another thing. its not really very complicated, you just have to get a few basics sorted and then build on what you know...just like when you were learning your trade
Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 29, 2016 1:22 AM
Yea I dont mind practicing it. I do play by ear. Im not sure if that will change with the theory knowledge or not. But I do know it will be much easier when trying to make up my own stuff. Aswell as be able to move forward and play with other musicians. As BBQBOB said in another thread, other musicians dont think very highly of harmonica players because most dont have the theory knowledge. I dont wanna be THAT GUY. So Ill continue knockin it out in Chunks until Im there. Ill get it.
Plus Im just not the type of guy that likes to do things without knowing why.
I have got quite a few of the pieces to the puzzle I was looking for, here in this thread. So thanks all. I needed a few things answered so i could understand the rest of the stuff i was reading. As I said I feel some lessons skip some of the basic stuff. Or assume you already know it. Im going to get back to using the keyboard also for theory. It was much easier that way.
As i said in the beginning I just wanted to play.
MANJEDI ---------- "THE BLUES IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE!"
Dont wait to play with other musicians-- you will learn more ( good and bad ) by playing with others
As a drummer - I learned to play basic guitar just from watching guitar players in the band I was in-- then its just practice from there
BBQ means well but his standards dont apply to the average player so dont be intimidated--
There are lots of players that talk a good game, make great home videos and suck on the bandstand
I believe that 50% of learning to play is listening to others to embed the sound and rhythm-try and HEAR where they play most of their notes--its gonna be around the root and most good ones dont stray far ( Albert King - BB King , Carlos Santana)
And if you want to be more than a youtube cowboy u gotta play with others.
Harp can be easy to fit in because most cant play it at all so standards are much lower than for a drummer or guitarists
In the begining learn where the root and five are and mimic the bass player-- expand from there
Less is more
Would you rather hear one note from BB King or a thousand from a shredder ?
It's my understanding that all the notes from the blues scale work over the I. IV and V. And that it's more about being on the right note, or the root note for the cord change to outline it. Will Wilde has a good video on this, as does Jason Ricci.
Yes,in the blues scale you can play notes from the I over the chord changes.You may or may not be able to get away with that on other styles of music.Mostly not in jazz. You are actually changing position when you play the chord changes,but that can be a little confusing to think about without some theory knowledge.
Gold brick ... bobs comments don't intimidate me. Infact quite the opposite. But yes the bass player route sounds like a good way to go. Ive got a few good lessons on the 12 bar. Ronnie Shellist groove lesson is great, but i was a little lost because i didn't fully understand the chords. As far as the note structure.
But with Timeissights explaination im much better off than i was yesterday. Lol.
Tuckster ... thats the way i thought it worked Origionally. Different chords were a change of position. And then you had to know the scale for that position. Can you elaborate on what your saying about different positions in relation to cord change?
Time ... ahh that makes sence. But basically you can play notes from the 5 chord in the 1 chord and notes from the 1 in the 4, etc. right. But to better imply a chord change, maybe stay away from notes of other chords near the change so that it has more effect? And then not necessarily do you have to play the root of the changed chord to imply the change.
Im telling you man that do re mi chord breakdown, (how the 145 chords are made up) was a HUGE "Ahha Moment" Thanks alot bro. So many things that i had learned previously just clicked.
And now i can actually get what yall are saying. Lol.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 29, 2016 9:45 AM
Some random suggestions for playing blues in second position: The 3b of the key you are in is also the 7b of the IV chord both of which are blue notes. So, playing draw 3* over the I-IV change sounds cool and "bluesy." Every chord resolves to its fourth. The fourth of the IV chord is 7b of the key you are in which is also the 3b of the V chord. So, leaning on draw 5 as the tune moves from the IV chord to either the I or the V can be effective. Blow 5 is the major 6 of the key you are in, but works on the IV chord because it is a chord tone, specifically the third of that chord. The flat fifth is a restless note, not a note of resolution. So, draw 5* is a good note to start out on and move away from during a solo. It is not a good note to move to for resolution. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 29, 2016 1:21 PM
Minor ... that makes tons of sense. Thanks. Now It's not quite as overwhelming to think of it in terms of positions because now i know the way TimeisSight explained. Very cool. Now all i gotta do is learn 1st and 3rd Position.... lol. This had been a very helpful thread.
Well, I have no formal music training. A sax player with a degree in music told me this, and It seems to work but I have no idea why.
Btw, regarding your "positional" analysis of I-IV-V chord changes, there is a book on BLUES SCALES by Dan Greenblatt that contains analysis of great solos. Many of these famous soloists tend to use the major blues scale (which is the major pentatonic scale but with an added 3b) over the I chord which is sort of consistent with what u are saying.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 29, 2016 1:42 PM
@Minor Blues: When I say it seems to work, I mean it sounds good and seems to provide a sense of resolution. But I dunno.. I don't have the best ear for such things anyway.
Continuing with your summary of scale tone and chord tone relationships, major 7 of the key you are in is 5b of the IV chord. Since 2 (or 9) is the 5th of the V chord, playing draw 6* on the V (which is the 5b of the V) can provide a restless crescendo note if played at the right time. Butterfield would do this sometimes.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 29, 2016 2:27 PM
A consideration for bending: in general, if u are going to bend for a blue note, it is better to hit that note bent rather than bend down. to it. If you want to move the bend, release it UP into the corresponding major chord tone you wold have bent down from. For example, playing a minor third (draw 3*) against the major third of the I chord creates tension. If you release the bend up into the chord tone, there is a sense of resolution. This is one sort of thing that generates the emotion associated with blues.
Caution: if you are going to release a bend up from a minor 7th, release it all the way up to the tonic, not to major 7th.
Chord progressions often -- not always, but often -- move in fourths: iii to vi, ii to V, I to IV and, especially V7 to I or i. I think that's what hvyj's sax player was saying.
Of course, blues tends to violate that rule with its common V to IV and IV to I movements.
@ goldbrick i just got a chance to watch that video. Pretty Cool. Thats the harp in a nutshell. Make something sound cool with limited notes.
The bass player thing is good aswell. I think i Said that already, but bass lines are hard for me to come up with sometimes. I think once you have a good bass line to fall back on. The rest is easy. But i get what you mean now .... just root , fifth. Didn't know it was that easy, but it makes sence now.
Minor ... those note relationships ... now i see why its so confusing. Because most people don't teach why. They teach what blow/draw you can play over what chord. And you can basically make most notes work. So it never made much sense as to what the difference was .. i actually get why now. Now i just have to commit all this to memory.
But atleast i get all the minor 7th, scale , jargon. Before it just confused the hell outta me.
I think I'll take Bees advice and just learn the C harp inside n out. 2 position chords and note relationships inside n out. (Like i should have been doing from the start) Then move onto 3rd n minor stuff.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 29, 2016 5:25 PM
@hvyj. ... thanks for that rule of thumb with the bends.
@Minor. I had no illusions about learning this overnight. But before not much of it made sense. At least now i know the logic.
Ive had a slight glimpse behind the curtain and that's enough to keep me going.
Thanks yall. This would make a GREAT sticky thread. Ive bookmarked it. And taken screenshots of half of it aswell. Good stuff. ---------- "THE BLUES IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE! "
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 29, 2016 7:50 PM
When I took lessons from Pierre Beauregard, he really drilled into my head that chord changes are key changes. Assume you're playing a G blues on a C harp. When you go to the IV chord you're playing in C, change to the V chord and you're playing in D. Learn the arpeggios and scales for each key. Boogie Woogie patterns are good for this too. If you work on playing tunes in first(C) and third(D) positions, it gives you more tools to play over all the changes when you're playing in cross harp (G)
Pierre Beauregard is an old friend of mine to whom I'm happy to say I took a lot from and he's an extremely knowledgeable player and plays easily in just about any music genre right in their mainstreams and always knows how to fit in properly in any context. I also know for a fact that he can't sight read to save his life and many people, especially harp players confuse learning theory with learning sight reading skills, which are related, but different things altogether and learning basic theory is much more important than learning sight reading skills with the exception on being a full time recording studio session pro, jazzman or classical musician. I learned a lot about how to work as part of a horn section from the many times I saw him with the Boston are band Powerhouse in the 70's. The most intense person I ever met, hands down. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
