John M G
30 posts
Mar 08, 2016
3:29 PM
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Being self taught has some pitfalls!
I've just bought some of the "HarpStickers" Key labels and thought great, they show 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions.
Then I thought, hang on they're wrong!
The label for the A harp has E shown as 2nd and B shown as 3rd but if the song is in A I know I need either an A harp for 1st or a D for second and a G for 3rd
The markings on the later Lee Oskar always confused me with the A harp marked 2nd E along with their Position list, so when these new labels arrived I saw they follow the chart used by Lee Oskar I was disappointed. I didn't make sense
Then I found a chart that does make perfect sense to me. The one on the left below.
Why are there two charts? These stickers are going to annoy the crap out of me because if I'm trying to work out what harp I need for a given position in a given key, these labels don't show the keys required for the given song key. They are inverted telling you what key the tune has to be in to work for a given position which is kinda cack handed.
The chart on the left works for me, the chart on the left which is the same as the labels the charts supplied with some harmonicas doesn't.
I've finally worked it out while typing this. It's looking at the A harp and what the tune has to played in so you'll be in 2nd if the tune is in E and you'll be in 3rd if the tune is in B.
That's a bit counter intuitive for me.
May as well post the pictures now even though I pretty much answered my own question.
Now I want harp labels as per the chart on the left please anyone!
Should have got the simple Seydel labels :-(
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SuperBee
3496 posts
Mar 08, 2016
4:09 PM
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I think it's easier to just learn it John. When I tried to use charts and labels i found it confusing...I had to remember how to read the chart and was forever getting it arse about. When I started to actually learn the principle it happened quite quickly and it's much easier. I don't have to remember, I just know. Just start with learning your C harp. Learn the note names and that it plays in G for 2nd and D for 3rd. The root note for 2nd is 2 draw, and for 3rd its 1 draw, or 4 draw if you prefer. It doesn't take long to learn the C Harp.
Then think about your A harp. You know it plays A for 1st. The root note for 2nd is still 2 draw and you already know it's E. It's not a big stretch to work out it plays 3rd position based on 1 draw, and that note is B.
Just use this system for them all. It's really no big deal. 1st is obvious, and 3rd is very easy...it's always the note in 1 draw...which is pretty easy to name...
And the second position key is not harp to remember.
Give it a whirl. Don't try to remember all of them at once...but once you get 3 of them under control I think you'll find the rest come easily
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SuperBee
3497 posts
Mar 08, 2016
4:11 PM
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*not hard to remember
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STME58
1621 posts
Mar 08, 2016
4:34 PM
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I just label the Richter harps with the major key and keep a circle of fifths handy. After a while I found I seldom looked at the circle of fifths.
I agree with you about the Lee Oscar labeling being confusing. The minor labeling is worse! Lee Oscar and Honer natural minor harps have all of the notes of the natural minor scale in second position.
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slaphappy
176 posts
Mar 08, 2016
5:11 PM
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I will second that it's better to know the theory and not have to rely on a chart to pick the harp you want to play.
I just key off the root note of the position... Let's see the band is in G minor.. I know I want play 4th position... 4th position root note is 3 draw whole step bend... What harp has G as the 3 draw whole step bend? Bb! I need my Bb harp woohoo!
Bb is also the relative major of G minor so that's probably an easier way to derive the right harp for 4th position.
Hell maybe a chart is easier LOL but I refuse to use one.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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Killa_Hertz
712 posts
Mar 08, 2016
5:12 PM
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I cut out the little chart on the side of a hohner box and ghetto laminated it with packing tape. I put it in my travel harp case. In the little outside window for a nametag. You won't even have to look at it after a while.
The key labels/stickers are just good for finding the harp itself. IMO.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 08, 2016 5:14 PM
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timeistight
1952 posts
Mar 08, 2016
6:03 PM
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Superbee is right: learn the positions and throw away the charts.
The labels are to make the harp easier to identify in low light.
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dougharps
1181 posts
Mar 08, 2016
7:58 PM
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I would just label the key of the harp and use the circle of 5ths.
If your harps are in the order of the circle of 5ths you just find the harp that is the key of the song, and that is the harp for 1st position. The one to the left, or counter clockwise, is the harp for 2nd position, the next one will play the song in 3rd.
After you have your harps organized this way for a while you will find you have memorized the circle of 5ths and understand positions better. Then you can discover other musical information embedded in the circle of 5ths.
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Doug S.
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Killa_Hertz
717 posts
Mar 08, 2016
9:13 PM
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Doug .... I like that. Never heard that one before. Logistically tricky maybe. Without a circular case. Lol.
Good Idea.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 08, 2016 9:15 PM
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STME58
1622 posts
Mar 08, 2016
10:26 PM
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Killa, your comment reminds me of the long poster written in larger letters on butcher paper above the blackboard in my son's high school band room, it is a line of fifths from Gb to B.
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dougharps
1182 posts
Mar 08, 2016
10:41 PM
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You can put them in a belt in a line or in a case in that order, just so you know how you lined them up. I use Seydel belt bags, and the order is just like I typed the key names in the order of the circle of fifths, 4 keys on each line, 3 lines. At the end, just go back to the first line. I start with B, but it doesn't matter,you can choose where you want to start: it's a circle!
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Doug S.
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STME58
1623 posts
Mar 08, 2016
10:49 PM
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I have two columns of harps in my case, on the left I have C at the top through B at the bottom, on the right I have F though Gb. Sharps on the left, flats on the right.
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MindTheGap
1260 posts
Mar 08, 2016
10:55 PM
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I use Superbee's method, and that just evolved by itself...
1st Position - harp key
2nd Position - just know it
3rd Position - I always think 'harp key + one'
My love of LOs means having '2nd E' on the visible end of the harp in the case, but that just adds to their charm.
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STME58
1624 posts
Mar 08, 2016
11:01 PM
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When memorizing the triads I gravitated towards what you might call a skip letter alphabet;
ACEGBDFA, That became so ingrained that when I want to know a fifth above I just go two steps up this pattern. So second position on a D harp is DfA A.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 08, 2016 11:01 PM
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Killa_Hertz
718 posts
Mar 09, 2016
3:53 AM
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Doug ... i actually use those bags aswell. Not a bad idea for setup. Ill probably set mine up that way.
I really dont play in to many positions. So it hasn't really been a problem up till now.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Goldbrick
1345 posts
Mar 09, 2016
5:26 AM
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If you play guitar or bass - think of the relationship between the 6th and 5th string
i.e. E string A string open A is the 2nd position
At 7th fret B - E , E is the cross
etc
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RyanMortos
1547 posts
Mar 09, 2016
5:37 AM
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I memorized the circle of fifths. All the positions answers are there. I also organized my harmonicas like the circle of fifths in the seydel carrying case. I have C, G, D, A, E, B, F# on one side and Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F on the other.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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dougharps
1183 posts
Mar 09, 2016
8:08 AM
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When I was first figuring out positions and some theory I carried a circle of fifths as a reference. Once I decided to organize my harps this way I didn't carry the reference.
Now I just know it, having learned it by use and not memorization.
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EXTRA INFO, SKIP IF YOU GET GLASSY-EYED WITH THEORY
****************
The modes of C we encounter when playing positions on a C harp start on the same note as the keys listed in the circle, but without adding the sharps or flats needed to make a major scale. Don't panic, read on... get your keyboard out!
You can hear this on your keyboard, just play the white keys from G to G (2nd position on a C harp) and you will hear the Mixolydian mode scale. It would need one sharp, F#, to get rid of the flat 7 and become the G major scale. Playing crossharp 2nd position blues, we don't need the major 7th. That is one reason why we like crossharp for blues.
If you play from D to D (3rd position on a C harp) you will hear the Dorian mode scale, which would need two sharps, F# and C# to be the D major scale.
If you play from A to A (4th position on a C harp) on the white keys you hear the Aeolian mode/natural minor scale which would need 3 sharps to be the A major scale: F#, C#, G#. Each step around the circle from the home key adds another sharp to make the major scale.
If you play from F to F you will hear the Lydian mode scale that would need a Bb to get rid of the augmented 4th and become an F major scale. Each counterclockwise step adds another flat.
I find it useful to think of adding the flats and sharps as ways to turn the modal scales into major scales starting on the same notes. This is certainly not the only way to look at it, but useful.
If you are playing positions and want the major scale starting on that note you have to use bends or overbends to get the necessary notes for a major scale, if those notes are needed for the song. If you can't play the needed sharps or flats, then you need to play around those "avoid notes" by playing a note that doesn't clash with the chord.
***************
STILL WITH ME???
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If you are playing a 1-4-5 song, look at the circle of 5ths at the song's key (called the tonic). Going counterclockwise is the 4th (subdominant), and to the right of the song's key is the 5th (dominant).
The chords for many blues and roots music songs are right there on the circle!
*******************
MORE WEIRDNESS:
All of these relationships are transportable to using a key other than C as the home key! The choice of C is an arbitrary decision. Your keyboard could be tuned to any note in the C position. Yes! The relationships are all relative. I played Bb clarinet as a kid. If the sheet music read C, I was really playing in Bb, etc. Only the arranger and conductor needed to pay attention to the different tunings of transposing instruments.
******************************
Jazz players use the circle of FOURTHS, which is the same as the circle of 5ths, but reversed, with flat keys going clockwise and sharp keys going counter clockwise. Same circle... same relationships... just flipped!
It is ALL relative and it is circular...
*****************************************
Anyway, if you put your harps in order of the circle of fifths it will help you learn the circle of fifths.
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Doug S.
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nacoran
8988 posts
Mar 09, 2016
12:17 PM
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Looks like someone ran the wrong way around the circle when they made their chart... I've done that myself a few times. Dyslexia is a hell of a drug!
It gets weirder though, because a little googling and there seem to be both versions floating around (with different formating, suggesting that they've been redone several times. And it is hosted on various conflicting 'authoritative' sites both ways.
And reading through the posts here we are getting conflicting results too.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Last Edited by nacoran on Mar 09, 2016 12:18 PM
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timeistight
1954 posts
Mar 09, 2016
1:41 PM
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Both charts are correct, Nate. The one the left tells you which harps to use to play a given key in second or third position. The one on the right tells you the key you are playing in playing first, second or third position on a given harp.
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mr_so&so
1010 posts
Mar 09, 2016
2:14 PM
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There are three pieces of info that are relevant to position playing:
song key, harp key, position number.
If you know any two of these, you can deduce the other using the circle of fifths. If you learn or carry a circle of fifths (and just the "outer" circle, with C at the top, forget about the minor keys one), and then practice working with the three possible pairs of the 3 bits of info above, you will quickly become familiar with the process. See the Essential Music Theory for Harmonica Players document in my user profile for details.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 09, 2016 2:20 PM
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nacoran
8989 posts
Mar 09, 2016
3:15 PM
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Timeistight, ah, okay, I see how it works. Usually I ask the guitar player what key he's in and grab a harp. That's chart one. I think maybe when I was starting out I ran across both versions and that may have aggravated my already dyslexic take on things because I didn't notice the difference in what they were conveying. (On the bright side, I did learn some 12th position playing at one point because of it!)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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John M G
31 posts
Mar 09, 2016
11:45 PM
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Thank you people, I've now got the hang of the circle of 5th's and will paste a copy of that on inside lid of my harp case. So easy once you know!
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hvyj
3009 posts
Mar 10, 2016
9:40 AM
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Continuing along with MindTheGap's method:
FIFTH Position: Count up 3 from the key of the harp EXAMPLE, C harp=C+D+E gives you E
FOURTH Position: Count up 2 fro the second position root note EXAMPLE, C harp on which the second position root note is G=G+A gives you A
Of course these are both minor positions, so we are talking about Em and Am respectively.
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Blowhead9
66 posts
Mar 10, 2016
9:40 AM
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How long does it take to memorize the circle of 4ths/5ths? A couple of hours. Jazz players, use the chart, circle of 4ths and 5ths is the same chart, but a lot of the standards use circle of 4ths progressions.
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For every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled. HST
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hvyj
3010 posts
Mar 10, 2016
9:46 AM
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Ya know, for no particularly good reason, I've never used the C of 5ths/4ths to figure out positions. I've always used MTG's method. Not saying this is better or anything...that's just how I've always done it.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 10, 2016 9:47 AM
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STME58
1625 posts
Mar 10, 2016
11:05 AM
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Some of you have seen this as I posted it in its own thread. What it is is an exercise I wrote showing how to develop the circle of fifths from only the piano keyboard. If you take the time to understand how this works you will have a much deeper understanding of the circle of fifths and may come up with some unique ways of remembering the information you need to know. Generating the Circle of Fifths from a keyboard
Warning, this may remind you of your high school geometry class!
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 10, 2016 11:11 AM
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nacoran
8991 posts
Mar 10, 2016
12:59 PM
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Start at 10 O'Clock and go counter clockwise
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (all flat)
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go Circle of Fifths
And now that you have the circle of fifths memorized, you can write it down anytime you need it. :)
I do recommend doing what STME58 is suggesting though. Understanding why it works, even if you don't work it out every time, really adds a lot to your understanding of the scales.
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Nate
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