Okay, so I bought the Fender 65 Princeton Reverb Reissue.
Don't get me wrong I like it a lot and I'm pretty much 100% happy.......But, if anything it's just a tad on the bright side.
I'm using my old faithful Green Bullet fully cupped and know there's a whole lot of discussion about microphones but for now I'm just interested in the amp side of things and some of the easily changed items that will effect tone.
I've seen posts on how valves influence tone, but can't find them! I've done some back to back to back swaps on a couple of the tubes at a friends place, but to my ear it wasn't significant and the fact I can't tell you which valves we swapped out and what the brand of valves were I know it doesn't help much. At the time it wasn't really that noticeable to my ear!
I also got to wondering, why does a US $1000 amp only have a $40 speaker fitted to it? Are there some options here?
I've been sitting way back over the last 15-20 years and trying to play catch up. Any recommendations gladly listened to.
A cheap speaker and cheap tubes is one way to cut costs and increase profits.
I didn't notice it was overly bright when I tested a stock one at GC with CR JT30. It was a little harsh, and could use more low end. A good speaker will take care of that.
I would try a speaker swap first like a Cannabis Rex to tame the brightness. The opposite of bright is dark, the Rex is on the darker side but not too dark. One of the best 12" speakers on the planet!
Tube brands may tame the bright issue a little. A good tube will be more balanced and usually smoother. Tungsol Reissues fit the bill. Try 5751 or 12AY7's in the preamp section. I use JAN Philips or JAN GE, but most current brands will work fine.
I assume your keeping the treble low and bass higher?
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 28, 2016 2:32 PM
Yep, Base is full, treble about 1-2. The Cannabis Rex is a 12" and the stock speaker is the Jensen C10R which is a 10" speaker. Any other issues going up to a 12" speaker other than space of course?
I am only an amateur but I found that my ears didn't really pick up a substantial tone difference with tube swaps.( subtle differences maybe).. Sometimes hard to tell because using lesser factor tubes meant different volume or gain settings and these have more substantial effect on tone at different settings. What I found had made large tone difference are two things- coupling caps (but you need to get out the soldering iron for this) and the speaker... Trying the cannabis Rex and others ,had subtle or reasonable tone changes. Major tone changes were switching type - ceramic to alnico but more especially going to old used alnico speakers. It'd be my recommendation to first try before tubes. Pick up an old alnico from an organ it amp and whack it in. They have that compression that sounds good to me, and they are less sensitive in response to the highs.. which consequently makes then less sensitive to feedback. And they are cheap!
The Eminence Lil' Buddy is a darker 10" speaker that I like a LOT for harp. I have two of them, one in a cab I use with vintage tube PA heads or with my EH 44 Magnum, and one in my '61 (or '62?) Gibson Explorer. The Lil' Buddy really tamed the brightness of the Gibson, and it is a LOUD speaker.
I also played through one of my Lil' Buddy speakers using a friend's original '65 Princeton and I really liked it with harp. The Princeton was punchier than my Gibson, but both sounded great. If I had a Princeton and thought it was too bright, I would put in a Lil' Buddy.
The Cannabis Rex is great sounding, too, but it is a 12" speaker. It has a bit more highs than the Lil' Buddy, but is not too bright. I have one in a cab for use with the tube PA heads. Sometimes I use a Cannabis Rex and a Lil' Buddy cab in parallel, since my tube PA heads all have 4 ohm outputs. That is only when I want to push a lot of air in a bigger venue. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 28, 2016 4:04 PM
Bugfan wrote, "Trying the cannabis Rex and others had subtle or reasonable tone changes" Did you try a 12" cannibas Rex in a PRRI?
Forgot it was 10". Thats easy, the Eminence Lil Buddy, Eminence 1028K Legend Alnico, or Weber hemp. All three as good the Rex. Either Speaker will solve 80% of your problems.
If it was me I would try the 35 watt 1028K Legend first which is perfect for a 15 watt amp. It has a smaller magnet/voice coil so its less likely to feedback compared to the Lil B. I own both Eminence speakers and have tried them both in several different amps and they sound amazing! I owned the Weber when it first came out.
Theres a huge difference between the two named and the RI Jensen thats in there now.
There is not a huge difference between Alnico and Ceramic, except price.
I personally would stay away from low wattage speakers, they will break up too easily and sound like crap.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 29, 2016 8:51 PM
FWIW, I found that replacing all the stock tubes with JJs smoothed, darkened and fattened the tone of my PRRI. I thought the stock tubes sounded harsh and too bright. I put a JJ ECC 823 (a backwards 12D/W7) in v4 to tube down the PI. This swap is intended to help control feedback. I prefer to tube down the PI instead of the front end preamp tubes.
For a speaker swap (the stock speaker isn't very good) I put in a Weber Vintage F-150-H 50watt which is a ceramic 10" hemp cone speaker that cuts the treble edge and darkens the tone.
I also had a Mercury Magnetics Axiom Fat Stack Output Transformer installed which changed the characteristics of the amp substantially. The change was very much to my liking, but may not be what others are after. The Fat Stack OT overwhelmed the stock speaker which resulted in me swapping it out for the hemp cone Weber.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 29, 2016 5:50 AM
Garry, for 4 ohm speakers, your limited to Weber, Tone Tubby and Warehouse for the most part.
I prefer ribbed cone speakers, I dont like early break up, I prefer to push the amp.
Weber's 12F150 or the 12B would be a good choice. The Warehouse G12C 75 watter is another. All avail in 4 ohm.
I wouldnt be concerned with running the Weber 50 watt speakers in that amp unless you cranking the amp with guitar.
John, I am running a Lil Buddy in my Premier 110 and a Cannibas Rex in my Multivox Combo Bass to preserve the Original Jensens. Both 10-12 watt amps and they sound amazing!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 29, 2016 7:38 AM
I use Warehouse or WGS speakers in my Vibrolux. as others have suggested, I also have swapped out the tubes (valves) and now run JJ 6L6s. I get em from Eurotubes and get pretty good service. I also biased them a tad hot to get a bit earlier breakup (anther thing you will need to do, but it's not very difficult). I don't have any problem with brightness, although I do run my treble down in the 2-3 range (bass 8-9). I cut through the band just fine with the volume control on 2-2.5. ---------- www.bigroadband.com
If your Green Bullet is a 520DX - the biggest bang for the buck in reducing brightness WOULD be a mic change. Tubes and speakers have some effect, but not nearly as much. THEY were all designed to provide maximum fidelity and frequency response. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Not aware of Eminence doing custom orders, but that would be great!
If you are using a modern green bullet the tone won't be as good as some other mics but if your a beginner, don't spend $$ chasing tone. Great tone starts with you, Gear is secondary.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 29, 2016 8:56 AM
Thanks for the inputs. Please don't get me wrong, I do like the sound of my amp and it is really early days, but we all want to improve things don't we!
I'm not a beginner playing wise, I've been playing since my mid 20's and am now early 60's and play competently in 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions. Chugging and rhythmic stuff buggers me and I've just started doing real serious practice here.
Equipment knowledge is another thing and I've not had a lot of gigging experience.
I've been way out of the loop for the last 15-20 years pretty much since I gave up smoking in 94. I stopped going to pubs and watching live bands and lost contact with those people I jammed with in the Sydney blues scene and let my membership with the Sydney Blues Society lapse. I'd been a founder member.
I became a car playing, throne room playing self entertainer.
I'd also loaned my valve amp and delay pedal to my nephew, never to be seen again. He was getting into guitar and didn't want my Green Bullet which I'd bought back in the 90's. It was a second hand mic then and I had it sent off to have the volume control added. No idea if it's a Mexican or a US build mic.
So now I'm trying to play catch up and we've all only got so many years and I've pretty much said F it, your only here once. I'm gonna have the nice stuff now, if I can afford, or bugger it, even if I can't!
This whole thing started when one of the amps I was looking at, a 2nd hand Fender 68 Custom Princeton Reverb had been fitted with a WGS speaker. I went through the exercise of checking out the stock speaker values against what had been put in this amp and was frankly surprised that what to me seemed a fairly important component in an amp was such a base line model when looking at the value of the amp as a whole. The stock speaker only accounts for 4% of the value of the amp? I came to the conclusion that the speaker selection could give a more mellow or darker sound. If so there were bound to be a lot of you out there that had been and done that before. Then again, I'm getting the feeling that a pedal or pedals may be the more effective way at this early stage. I'll start another thread on that one!
I'm going to ring the states to see who'll ship to Australia with reasonable shipping prices. Aussie retailers are way too expensive for my wallet!
Last Edited by John M G on Feb 29, 2016 2:21 PM
I think John checked out the 68RI but eventually purchased a 65RI. John, freight is gonna cost a lot! But if you find a good arrangement, please let us (me!) know. I bought in a couple of 8" speakers a few years ago and the freight was equivalent to the price of a 3rd speaker...and I imported a 10" and 12" a bit later: freight was like $100. This was maybe 2013 and Aussie more like parity with the Eagle back then. But at least you get choice, which is really lacking in Aus, and I think for anything out of the ordinary you will do a bit better $...but still 'through the nose'
He first checked out a 68 custom with a WGS then later bought a 65RI. I see no BS here.
John, as has been stated above and as I have said in the past, learn to use that brightness which is not really bright, to your advantage. Get your tone controls right. Bass on 10 and treb on 2 ain't right! There are way too many players on this board who play DARK with DARK speakers because that don't know how to control there cup and lack experience on stage live. This is not intended to be an insult to anyone, I just am trying to keep you from falling into the muck and mire of being LOST IN THE MIX!
The speaker in your RI more then likely a cheep piece of crap. There are a lot of good speakers out there. I like a Weber 10F150 and a Eminence Ragin Cajun. Both high power speakers with clear articular highs, strong mids and strong bass. Neither is piercingly bright or dark. The RC is very efficient (Loud). Alnico speaker, while nice, smooth and compressed tend to get lost in the mix also due to lower magnet flux in the VC gap. There are a million variables in gear, even with just one amp and a mic. Just like there are a million opinions.
As 1847 said, that amp should sound dam good as is. Play it for a while before you change anything. I don't mean in the living room, I mean on stage with a band. Only then will you be able to make a decision on what needs to change. Good luck...BN
Here is one of my Lil' Buddy speakers in a salvaged Fender SS cab. The amp is a 2 - EL84 PA head, a Stromberg-Carlson SIG-22. I am using a fairly clean mic, a Shure 585SAV. It doesn't have the bullet sound.
My solo is the first solo. The rig is filmed very clearly in the video.
There are plenty of highs with this speaker, though I had the tone set a little lower than at midpoint. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 29, 2016 5:23 PM
No worries. Maybe I type too much and detail gets lost in the verbage. I'm an older fart and like to talk and waffle on a bit, be generous and cut me a bit of slack!
I bought a 2nd hand 65 Princeton Reverb Reissue it's this one
I missed out on the 2nd hand 68 Custom with the WGS, but that's another story!
I haven't been involved in gigging or talking to any harp players for the last 20 years and I'm now really getting enthusiastic again.
I've got a whole load of stuff to learn and I appreciate all the good advice I'm being given here.
1847 has confirmed that using a higher wattage speaker in what's only a 15 watt amp will work very well. It's obvious until you hear something you like it's really hard to make a decision on anything and a lot of it is suck and see.
There have been some good suggestions for various speakers but I'm going to take some advice and try and not jump in and make quick decision, though I'm very tempted to upgrade the speaker right now! I'm human!
Last Edited by John M G on Feb 29, 2016 6:49 PM
A lot of these recommedations come from first had experience.
Like I said, the bigger magnet, bigger voice coil higher wattage speakers are more likely to feedback. That is why the Eminence 1028 Legend is my first choice. FYI, those are the same speakers used in Harp Kings, and Sonny JR used to endorse them for the two lower speakers in a Bassman. I have three in use in two cabs and they sound great hooked up to anything! Its a perfect match for that amp, but its your choice.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 29, 2016 7:28 PM
i had 4 of those in my bassman for perhaps 15 years one of them was damaged, the [power cord got poked thru it).... so i bought a 10 inch jensen p10Q smooth cone to replace it. it is a nice speaker.
in the mean time i had the 1028 "mojo tone" re-coned along with a vintage jensen P10Q re-coned.
i put the vintage p10Q speaker back in the amp..... "where it belongs" ...so at the present time i have,
2 1028 mojo tones "eminence"... i vintage p10q and one re-issue p10q in my amp. "smooth cone"
the re-issue jensen will soon be replaced with the wgs alnico G10A just because.
the 1028 speakers sound really good when the amp is cranked up, especially when using the kinder antifeedback pedal. highly recomended.
weber speakers are also highly recomended... i personally haven't any experience with them, but only because i am ignorant... true story lol.
I have a Weber 10A125-O in my Princeton Reverb, a 78 Silverface. I like it but I've had it in there so long it's hard to remember what the original was like. ive seen the WGS 'veteran' in Aus at affordale price, but don't know much about it. Has anyone here used these?
Legend 1028 is $213 in Australia. $85 in USA...which is around $120 AUD...to bring one in from US...would end up costing similar to buying in Aus, and crazy since they ship from Chinese factory to USA.
I put wgs veteran in my bugera v5. I liked it. Earlier breakup and mellower. Cheap too - as you say most speakers here in Australia are fairly expensive.
Seems this thread is mostly about speakers so I'll add my bit. I just changed the speaker in my 5F2A amp(1950s Fender Princeton replica). The original that came with my kit was a Celestion Tube 10. I never really warmed up to the speaker. Not sure how to describe it but it seemed to have a ringing sound when getting to where the sweet spot should be volume wise.
Yesterday while at the local music store asked if they had any 10" speakers (normally don't sell just speakers) and they had one Eminence 1028 Legend. Dropped that in my amp and now it sounds as I hoped.
I have a Weber 12A125-H (the vintage series)in a cabinet that I can speaker line-out to use for comparison and I am close to that sound with the new Eminence. ---------- MBH member since 2009-03-24
FWIW, I put tilt back legs on my PRRI and I always use them. It's almost unbelievable how much the tone of the amp opens up when it's tilted back. To do this you need to also put metal amp corners on at least the bottom corners of the amp, and sphinx glides to replace the little metal "feet" you have to take off so the corners will fit, but those are all small items that are very inexpenive and easy to put on.
I don't tilt my harp amp back generally because on tight stages I end up with feedback issues. BUT I do always tilt my guitar amp back and this is what I use. Damn simple and can hold an amp up to 90 pounds...and folds up so it goes into a gig bag or back of your amp. ---------- www.bigroadband.com
For single speaker amps the big magnet, high wattage, speakers work well for me. The lighter speakers such as the Eminence 1028 or the Fender Blue Alnico are better in multi speaker cabs. I had a Blue in my 76 PR then put it in my Champ II. Broke up way too early and was lost in the mix. I have the Blues in my 95 Bassman RI, they are killer in that amp.
Speaker choice depends on your tone preference obviously. I like a more clean bold cutting tone with strong bass and mids, articulate highs. I am not a fan of speaker breakup or kazoo tone. The speakers I chose reflect this goal. BTW, it has taken me a long time and a lot of cash to find out what I like...BN
I use a 212 Mesa Lonestar as my main guitar amp and the thing weighs almost 90 pounds. The Standback holds it great with no issues. My sons both use much smaller amps and it works fine with those as well.
As I said, I don't tilt my harp amp back. For those that do, how do you avoid feedback? I've tried to set it on something or tilt it, but the feedback was uncontrollable. I mostly use an older green bullet for a mic. ---------- www.bigroadband.com
The modern Legend 1028K 35 watters are different from the Blue Frame 20 watters used in the early to mid 90's. I have the original specs for the early 1028's which are identical to the blues stashed away somewhere.
The new ones use the Kapton voice former, more efficient, and don't break up as easy. Pretty sure they use a bigger voice coil.
They 1028K's have to be pushed to break up even in a single speaker cab compared to the blue frames. Its the only speaker I can think of that I like the break up.
The Blue frames would fart out a lot sooner when pushed in a single cab. In a 4x10 config, they sound great!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Mar 02, 2016 8:47 PM
@toneguy86: How do I avoid feedback? Well, for starters, I don't use a bullet mic. That alone reduces feedback problems. I do use a 545 Ultimate with a volume control. I set the amp's volume at the "sweet spot" then I attenuate the level of the input signal with the VC on the mic to a point where it does not feedback. I can boost performance volume by tightening the cup (grip). I also try to be cognizant of body and hand position relative to the amp.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 02, 2016 6:58 AM
Toneguy86, As for feedback with a larger amp on a stand. I use a CM/bullet and do as hvyj has stated but I do one more thing. I have stated this a thousand times but no one listens. DO NOT STAND IN FRONT OF YOUR AMP! I stand beside or away from mine...BN
I just bought a pair of WGS ET65's to go with my harp amp, soon to be in head form. They sound fantastic.
this amp always sounded good even as a combo with the original Chinese 15" but now with the 2x12 WOW and almost zero feedback (now whats that riniging sound and why are my ears bleeding)
Harpaholic.. :D Thank you, but there is no absolute truths when you talking sound. I like that speaker but tha'ts me. You maybe like it, maybe not. I think it sound very good and classic in my amps, but i don't really know how it sound in a Princeton. But i believe it sound good.
Last Edited by arnenym on Mar 07, 2016 4:45 AM
try a darker speaker and 5751 or 12Ay7 tubes (I like american made vintage whihc i find smoother), eminence Lil Buddy, eminence 1028K, jensen p10Q, or weber.
