Was wondering if anyone could tell me the difference between the sounds of a Diatonic played with the overblow/overbend technique in order to achieve the Chromatic sound, versus the sound from a regular Chromatic harmonica?
I've always been a fan of the jazzy/ballad type sound, which is one of the reasons why I've always had a slight favoritism towards Chromatics harmonica.
However, having just been exposed to overblow/overbend and seeing diatonic players such as Christelle Berthon on youtube has completely shattered my initial perception when it comes to Diatonic and Chromatic.
As a novice, it seems the diatonic played with overblow/overbend allows the player to play the chromatic scale and achieve that cleaner sound that is often represented by the Chromatic Harmonica (not as clean as chromatic, but 90% maybe?). While at the same time allows the player the luxury to choose how much of that classic diatonic wa-wa sound he or she may want to retain. And the ability to sound clean while being able to apply that slight wailing signature sound of the diatonic is how it is able to achieve a sound that not only sounds chromatic, but much more expressive as the same time?
Is this a fair assessment of it? This is coming from someone who has yet to start his harmonica journey, so my analysis is based strictly on the sound I'm hearing.
I guess the analogy would be like comparing a Violin to a Chinese Erhu (which is a violin like string instrument i'm also extremely fascinated with because of its wailing and expressive nature. It just sounds so much more emotional.)
Here are some examples of erhu in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLOpE2BIVu0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny8N0zDjuw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gekeszFovhk
As someone who is looking to get started and have originally planned to learn the chromatic harmonica, I must say, I'm quite torn now between the two choices. It definitely seems like the Diatonic is the more versatile and expressive of the two. I absolutely love the wailing, almost atmospheric sound that Christelle Berthon showcased in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjQxTFNh_14
Hi there just so you know the links are not kicking in for me perhaps it is a setting. There are far more qualified people than myself to answer some of your questions, but I wanted to mention if you are down there in the Boston area, Annie Raines gives lessons and could get you started, she's blues based but I'm confident she plays other stuff as well. Plus I'm sure some of the members here are around your area also. Christelle is indeed a fine player. It's kind of a case 1st you have to walk before you can run (best analogy I can come up with..) Good luck spdr
Learn both. Understanding chromatic will enable you to understand the diatonic better. I say the same thing to students who are not interested in overblows.
Getting overblows to a professional sounding level is a challenge. Playing in certain keys on a diatonic is much more challenging than on a chromatic.
it's a large commitment to go the overblow route and I think there are certain characteristics of the chromatic that you will never get on the diatonic (like slide jabs for example).
I'm not saying don't do it, just understand what you're signing up for.. Could be several years before you're even using the pitches musically with overbends. OTOH, there's never been a better time to go for it..
personally I'm going the chromatic route for now. Overblow stuff just does not move me the way classic blues stuff does so I've decided to focus my limited time and energy on the Walters and Sonny Boys with some jazz and blues chromatic mixed in for fun.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Jan 23, 2016 10:00 AM
Ornamentation done with a quick slap and release of the slide, up a semitone and back, like Stevie Wonder does a lot. I think. ---------- For every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled. HST
they are pretty fun, especially if you are playing in C# or Eb! ---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Jan 23, 2016 8:42 PM
@therue - another aspect, beyond getting all the single notes, is playing chords. The richter tuned blues harp enables different chords when playing 2, 3, or 4 adjacent holes. A solo tuned chromatic won't have all those same possibilities.
I say listen to good players doing both, and see what sound attracts you. Both undertakings are serious endeavors. The tonal and technical aspects are quite different. Listen and see what makes you more passionate.
Of course, as Michael Rubin suggested - if you've got the dedication, and are so inspired, - learn both.
for starters, Toots Thielemans on chromatic and Howard Levy on diatonic OB are probably the best known. Here are one or two others- both have been active on this site:
Christelle Berthon diatonic fly my to the moon: https://youtu.be/vrxtdCcO7wA
Boris Plotnikov- Does both it don't mean a thing diatonic https://youtu.be/GCTx4GL_LM0
Boris - Girl from Ipanema chromatic https://youtu.be/GCTx4GL_LM0
@therue: I think you're setting up a false dichotomy. You're making the assumption that the chromatic is one thing (fully valved in Solo tuning) and the diatonic is another (un-valved in Richter tuning). Then you're asking which is best.
These days those old boundaries between the two types of single-reed harmonica are far less strict and defined. Take the traditional 10 hole diatonic first: it can be configured in many different ways and achieve chromaticism through several alternative approaches to just overblowing in Richter tuning.
You can make a 10 hole harp sound more like a chromatic and play fully chromatically on it by making half the notes (the low pitched ones in each hole) valve affected. It's called half-valving; check out PT Gazell to hear it used in a jazz context.
You can add Jim Antaki's TuboSlide on a steel reed harp to lower the blow notes via magnetism. It's very cool, and gives extra nice effects as well.
You can simply retune the diatonic to play fully chromatically with bends alone. Diminished and Augmented tunings allow this; though not widely used, there are some good examples to listen to.
You can adopt less radical alternate tunings that give a traditional sound but are more chromatic with bends, needing fewer overblows or valved bends. There are hundreds to choose from.
You could choose an x-reed harp: one with extra reeds to allow bends on the notes that normally don't bend. The Hohner XB-40 and Suzuki SUB30 are examples, and they can be tuned in many tunings too.
On the chromatic, you could half-valve it to keep all the slider chromatic notes plus give you many diatonic-type interactive reed bends and that wah-wah tone you mention. If you choose an appropriate tuning, all draw reeds can be bent. This is my preference for the best way to achieve a mix of easy chromaticism with the slider and the earthy tone of the diatonic.
So... Keep an open mind and don't assume you have only two restricted choices. Happily, there are far more options available these days! I suggest you try many configurations and approaches before settling on what works best for you.
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Jan 24, 2016 4:15 PM
I started out on diatonic and chromatic more or less simultaneously as a teenager, and it's stood me in good stead over the years. For any given tune or solo, I can make choices for what will best express the music - or give me different options for variety.
Playing bends - whether standard dual-reed bends, isolated valved bends, or overbends - in tune can be rather challenging, and sometimes it's simply easier to use a chromatic or an alternate tuning. =========== Winslow
I came across the following comparison of diatonic versus chromatic sound on Carlos del Junco's web site (http://www.carlosdeljunco.com/about.html).
"Playing a ten hole diatonic harmonica, Carlos has developed the unique ability to play chromatically by using a recently developed "overblow" technique taught to him by jazz virtuoso Howard Levy. Overall, this approach to the diatonic harmonica, although much more difficult to achieve, is in many ways more expressive and communicative than the mechanized tone produced by the chromatic harmonica ."
A440 quotes Carlos del Junco: "The richter tuned blues harp enables different chords when playing 2, 3, or 4 adjacent holes. A solo tuned chromatic won't have all those same possibilities."
To which I respond that the chromatic has many chordal and double stop possibilities that don't exist on the diatonic. For instance, check out this snippet of the Pink Panther Theme on chromatic played almost entirely in splits that fit the chords of Eb minor, B7, and E7 (with bass and chord harmonica). You can't do this on standard tuned diatonic.
Actually, I was wondering what the response would be to the phrase "the mechanized tone produced by the chromatic harmonica." I love the sound of the chromatic harmonica, so calling it "mechanized" seems like describing the sound of the oboe - or any other instrument on which you can't bend notes - as mechanized.
Mechanized? Can't bend notes? Both the chromatic and the oboe can bend notes.
As for "mechanized," that's pure inexperience talking. Listen to any good chromatic player and you'll hear a lot of warmth. For instance, check out Larry Adler bending, growling, and chording on chromatic from this late 1930s record. No, he's not trying to sound like a diatonic. Possibly he's thinking about jazz trumpet or clarinet. Either way, there's nothing "mechanized" about the sound or expression he's getting:
As I said initially, I quoted "the mechanized sound of the chromatic harmonica" directly from Carlos del Junco's web site (http://www.carlosdeljunco.com/about.html), so I assume you're talking to him, not me. Again, I love the sound of the chromatic, so I was surprised to see it described as "mechanized."
Last Edited by FastFourier on Feb 19, 2018 6:17 AM
@FastFourier - Yes, I was responding not to you but rather over your shoulder to Carlos, as it were. Should have made that clear (just edited my first comment to that end).
I sometimes wonder whether statements like Carlos' are made as a listener who just hasn't listened enough, or as a diatonic player who picks up a chromatic and finds that, well, it's not a diatonic. =========== Winslow
Must say this thread and the one about jazz on diatonic vs chromatic has changed my ideas quite a bit. I like the idea of the chromatic as an instrument but struggled with liking the sound. I guess a lot of the music I'd heard was rather even, cool-sounding. 'Mechanised' is a bit strong, but I can understand the sentiment. But if it can be mix it with brass instruments - like the Larry Adler record above - it becomes a lot more attractive.
I also love the swing-jazz played by Max Geldray, but it would be long time before a person could approach that kind of style convincingly. For me, I've got to like the basics first e.g. the sound of a simple tune with expression and dynamics applied.
A significant problem remains for the hobbyist: the harmonica isn't naturally welcome in a band or group, in the way that other instruments are. You can't cut your teeth as 3rd Harmonica.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 20, 2018 2:18 AM
Some amateur play-along groups focus on all playing the melody together. This at least gives you some cover to develop your basic chops and confidence, even if individual expression gets buried. Not ideal, but it can help to some extent - it's how I got into playing fiddle tunes. =========== Winslow
@WinslowYerxa As you pointed out, my statement that it's not possible to bend notes on an oboe was based on total ignorance - in fact, narcoran posted video of someone doing exactly that just a few days before my post: http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5498071.htm?page=2 The Larry Adler recording is superb!
Last Edited by FastFourier on Feb 21, 2018 3:49 PM
It's hard not to like the sound and admire Yerxa's Chromatic work. Check out some stuff he's posted from the '90s at SPAH. He's sharing the stage w/ no less than Filisko, Greunling, Eisenberg, Michaleck, and I forget whom else. ---------- Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time. Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark .
