I've been powwowing with Jawbone about this over email, and wanted to get some feedback from the forum at large as well.
I'd like to take the plunge on getting an amp specifically for harp. I'm a guitar player, so I've been running my harp thru my Fender Blues Deluxe in the meantime. At 40W, it's way too loud, and while I am admittedly still an apprentice at amplified harp playing, I think this amp just isn't right for what I want to do.
I live in NYC, so a small amp is essential. I play music professionally (just not harp...yet), so ultimately I'd like to gig with the amp. But really, I need something to play in my apartment that has solid tone, doesn't get too too loud, and that I can practice amplified techniques on.
The Memphis Mini has caught my eye above all the other 5w amps I've read about. I love the line out, simple design, and well, the tweed. I've been heavily leaning towards this amp.
However, a 1976 Fender SF Vibro Champ has popped up on NYC Craigslist for around the same price. As a guitar player, I'd arguably be able to make more use out of the Vibro Champ (but maybe not if I retube it for harp). People seem to really dig these as harp amps, but I'm not looking to replace/mod a whole ton of parts. Retubing is about as far as I'd want to go at this juncture.
All of which is to say: anyone have thoughts? I was pretty convinced I wanted the Memphis Mini until the Vibro Champ gave me pause.
No need to retube a VC for harp. Leave it as is and play it! A VC or MM is not a quiet amp and it will be heard thru apartment walls if that is where you will use it. just sayin. Either amp will do fine for harp. Don't know about the MM for guitar. I have never seen one in the flesh.
$500 is a good price for a working Vibro Champ. That amp will certainly hold its value better than the Mini. The Fender is a piece of American music history.
However, either of these amps can be too too loud for your NYC neighbors while they may struggle to be heard at a loud gig, as any search of this forum can tell you. Not saying you shouldn't buy one -- everybody loves a Champ-type amp -- just be realistic about what it can do.
I'm not too worried about my neighbors...after all, they've put up with my guitar jams on my Blues Deluxe for a few years now. I just can't get it to break up at a reasonable level with harp. Which is why I feel like getting a "champ-type amp" (around a 5w range).
Re: getting drowned out in a gig, the nice thing about the MM is having that line out.
No denying the important (and groovy) heritage of a Fender VC though, for sure.
Look at the HarpTrain 10 from Lone Wolf Blues. It's currently listed at $377 which is a great buy for a dedicated harp amp. It's 8W with a 10" speaker. Has a unique "Balls" circuit which can give you overdriven tone at relatively low volume. Depending on mic used, it can develop feedback at higher volume. Since I use mine at jams which can be loud, I just swapped out the 12ax7 tube with a 12ay7 and I can turn the volume way up wilthout feedback.
A friend has the Memphis Mini which he loves. Tone is about the same IMO but the price difference may be worth a look. The MM is a circuitry modified for harp. The HarpTrain was built from the ground up for harp, whatever benefit that may have. They both sound great.
Last Edited by ME.HarpDoc on Jan 06, 2016 12:02 PM
I dunno whether the price is right on the VC. Where I live, that would be a pretty good price and Silverface stuff..some Silverface stuff, including Vibro Champs, is sought-after. If the price is right, it's not going to lose value over time as long as you keep it serviced and don't knock it about. And it won't be too hard to sell if you want to get rid of it. I haven't been keeping up with the Chinese Champ story but seems like 'harp amps' aren't all that easy to sell. Maybe not so bad in a city like NYC. And maybe it doubles as a good guitar amp too. Not sure how bright it's capable of. Re aesthetics...that tweed is kinda jarring don't you think, the way they do the corners? Or is that just me? Anyway, if it was me I'd go with the Fender I reckon, if that price is typical of what they go for.
@1847 do you copy the text of your posts before entering the captcha code? I always keep a copy on the clipboard until I see the post has got through. ----------
@56FH -- If you're using the Google Chrome Browser, that's really not necessary because when you hit the back button, you don't lose the text you just typed out, but with all the other browsers, especially Internet Explorer, you're absolutely s**t out of luck. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
i almost always do. at home i would use word perfect then just paste, if i had any issue it was there. but a few weeks or so ago, word just disppaered. vanished. i could just open an old doc. and it would re-load. but now it looks to be gone for good. it is a very old mac.
at work here, my post just disappear into cyber-space. the captcha was not an issue.now it seems less post are disapearing. but the captcha no longer retains my post. but i learned to operate a computer late in life and it was beat into me to save everything. so i am pretty good at it. i just got lazy, because i was not having that issue at all.
the text would always be there if i entered it incorrectly. until just recently
---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space ---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space
Hmm, no wonder I don't have trouble, I'm running Chrome! I sold a dead mint SF Champ, not VC, on Ebay for a BIN of $375. It sold after a week. That was in May of 2014. I could see 500 for a real nice VC but I would not give that much for one. I'd build one first. I do agree with the resell value of a Fender factoring into a decision.
I'm not a fan of a line out, much rather mic the cab if I must. You loose the influence of the speaker with a line out. Just my opinion which means nothing of course...BN
mic'ing the speaker in a small amp is a great way to get a good sound.
or should i say a good way to get a great sound? ---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space
Last Edited by 1847 on Jan 06, 2016 3:18 PM
No retube is needed on a VC for harp. I have used both of ours for harp with no worries. Great harp amp!
1847, that jet city goes where? Between chassis and speaker? I've miced a few amps off and we may do this with the new p.a. we're waiting on. If necessary. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
The VC is a GREAT amp for harp...fantastic! I think you can find a better deal on it, though. You can get a blackface Champ for around $500. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
Yes Mike, you are right. I got two beater Broncos here. Same as VC. One is a '68 drip edge, 100 bucks and the other was left here by a customer 7 yrs ago for repair. I have a feeling the fellow is not coming to pick it up! I did play it out once as a rent payment. LOL...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jan 07, 2016 7:30 AM
VC. Mine is a BF and it may be the best harp sound I have ever heard, and I've heard A LOT. Stunning curve, crunch, punch. I also have many more, including a 59 Champ and a 60 Concert, the VC wins. Can't believe I actually typed that. It's like infidelity.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jan 07, 2016 7:52 AM
The Blackface and Silverface Vibrochamp circuits are the same. CBS Fender never changed the VC circuits. That being said, all amps age differently as the component values and speakers drift off spec. This explains why a vintage amp will sound fantastic while another amp of the exact same model and year will sound like crap! You just never know how an amp will sound till you try it. And then something will change in there and suddenly, it sounds different, never to return to its previous sound. Tube amps sound best on a full moon! (:>)
Thanks for all this great input, everyone. It's clear that VCs get pretty high marks around here, and considering that I've always eyed them for guitar too (I play a lot of slide resonator guitar, and that style sounds reeeeal nice thru a little guy like a VC), it seems that option makes the most sense. Prices on these are tricky in NYC, as pretty much everything is overpriced here. I'd love to snag one for around 400/450, but in my experience, they don't dip that low here.
@Barley Nectar - building one is actually a great idea. My best friend (and neighbor) has been bugging me about helping him build a Champ kit for a while, and we might just do that instead, if I can price all the parts down to circa 250/300. Additionally, my band's bass player is a phenomenal carpenter, and can easily build a nice wooden cabinet for the amp, should I go that route.
jbone.... you will need a speaker cable with 2.. 1/4 inch connections remove the speaker wire that is connected to the amp, leave the wire attached to the speaker cut off the rca connection. take the other speaker cable and remove one of the 1/4 connections solder the 1/4 connection to the other end. plug that in to the output of the load box di. solder the rca to the other cable.... plug that into the amp , the other end into the input of the load box. put velcro on the di it should fit on the bottom of the champ cab. the amp should work like normal just attach. a mic cord when you need to run a line out.
now having said all that, please hold off on this for the time being. i am having a serious issue with the "tubes" i bought from them. seems to be an impedance mismatch of some sort. i will be calling them to discuss. right now i am not too happy.
---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space
the di is not a load box, i would pass on that item. safer just to mic the cab. ---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space ---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space
Being a member of several gear/music forums, it always drives me nuts when the OP presents a conundrum to the forum but never gives an update, so here's mine:
On a whim, I picked up the Vox AC4TV Mini amp, a weird little bugger that has a built-in attenuator to ramp the output down from 4W to 1W to 1/10th of a watt. A sensible NYC apartment choice, and I think the tone sounds pretty good for an ultra-portable 200 dollar amp. It's so small and light I could practically plop it into my backpack if need be.
In a rare move (precipitated by some very good employment news), I also picked up a 1978 SF Vibro Champ. I just got her today, so I'm still formulating my opinion. But wow. Tone for days on this thing. It's clearly at least a cut above the lil Vox amp, and will make a very nice guitar amp (though I guess I'll finally need to get a reverb pedal). I'm also really stoked on the weight of this amp, which proved to be lighter than expected. For those of us who get to gigs without the use of a car, this is important!
Making all of these amps sound even sweeter is a fine Astatic T-3 with a Shure 99A86 element, which I recently picked up as well.
I finally had a chance to try out the Memphis Mini last weekend in Denver. I was able to A/B it with my HG2, and I also played both amps in tandem during the gig.
I'm very impressed by the MM. At $500, it easily held its own next to the HG2, which sells for $800 or more. The tweed isn't quite as nice as the HG; physically, it's a little smaller. But the two amps are quite comparable; it was a tossup, as far as I'm concerned, which sounds better. Both amps are surprisingly loud, as small amps go. The MM is slightly but visibly smaller in dimensions.
I'd take either amp over a Vibro-Champ in a heartbeat. Nothing wrong with a VC--I've played through several--but they don't give me the same rich, pedigreed crunch-and-bark that I get from the MM and HG2.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 21, 2016 1:04 PM
Two other options not mentioned are the venerable Kalamazoo Model 1 or 2 and the new on the market Windy City. The Windy City is somewhat similar to the MM in that it is tweed and has certain parts sourced from China, however it is a much more versatile amp being able to use either 6v6 or 6l6 output tube. It also has the line out that you seek. It's also selling for just $375. ---------- LSC
digitalshrub ...Cool, thanks for the consideration and congrats on the raise. That VC amp has been around for a while, it should be checked by a GOOD tech as the OEM electrolytics will be due for replacement due to age. Now that you have a VC, play it for a while and get familiar with it's sound. You may like a speaker upgrade. Also a simple mod is to disconnect the negative feedback loop. This opens up the sound and gives distortion at a lower volume. You can switch this mod by installing a switching type pot on volume or tone knobs. Clean/Mean. The VC is a very versatile platform, just don't drill any holes in the chassis or mess up the cab by trying to put a 10 in there. This will decrease the resale value considerably. Have a blast...BN
" just don't drill any holes in the chassis or mess up the cab by trying to put a 10 in there. This will decrease the resale value considerably. Have a blast...BN"
I always felt thats what SF's where for. Yes they can be, and are, very good amps that are in general undervalued, - but you don't have to treat them like you would a highly sought after collectible. I say, - mod away if you want to.
Barley Nectar - the amp was purchased from Matt Umanov Guitars in NYC about 1 year ago. The Umanov team checked it out (I spoke with Zeke at the shop in person, before buying the amp) and made sure it was up to snuff. And thanks for the advice re: mods, etc. I'll keep it all under consideration!
Kudzurunner - Totally, the HG2 is a beast of tone. I'm not really able to hit that price point just yet, though. Good thing about the VC is it'll hold its value; if I feel like switching to something more harp-dedicated, like an HG2, I can probably get good value on the VC. That's assuming I'd wanna part with it!
LSC - totally, I did consider the Kalamazoo. As a guitar player primarily, I felt the VC was a better "versatile" choice for me right now.
Cool on the VC! No doubt there are better amps but I'm happy with mine as is. I do run a Lone Wolf Harp Delay with it and to me it's very workable. I occasionally tweak in some trem on certain stuff, like when we're doing a heavily distorted slide song. Very sparing though. Our second VC was bought off fleabay from a business in NY or NJ, can't recall, but it arrived in good order and our tech guy gave it a clean bill of health. First and foremost is, enjoy that amp!
Adam I saw the video and I agree they were very close...wish I could see the a/b as you and Ronnie had different mic set ups...I had a Vox AC4 and very good small venue and I made a CD with it...can find one for a 125.00 to 200.00 I just bought VHT special 6 and for 229.00 good get it and go amp...Did a gig the other night fairly big place full band and it held up well....I also have a Kalamazoo 2 that is my favorite small gig amp.Love the MM and will probably get one got the MM delay from Rick and really like it....but thought I would throw a couple of things out there
FYI Z Sounds has Fender Princeton Reverb RI blemished for 789.00...I have heard they are in "new" condition...I ended up getting a new one ...terrific amp and big power for 15 watts....
I have a '76 PR in a 2014 cab that I modded and souped up, Now I don't like it! I am going to put it back to stock save the speaker. I saved the OEM parts including the crappy cab.
The point here is that circuit mods on older Fender amps are simple due to the eyelet board construction used. I don't consider new solder to be a bad influence on originality or value. Most older amps have components that need or have been replaced and mods to the circuit are reversible. Drilling holes will have Leo's police knocking at the door. (:>) Just my opinion as always...BN
BN mine is a 65 reissue ...my neighbor has an original 73 ish Princeton ...IMO the reissue is superior in tone and power..his might have some issues due to age..but I have heard the same thing else where....
I know we are OT here but the OP has been satisfied so no harm.
Cannon, I have built a couple of PR so I am familiar with the circuit. Just took a look at the RI schematic. VERY similar to the vintage PR. I see some circuit protection diodes in the power section but besides that, they look mighty close.
The tonal difference you speak of my be due mainly to the speaker used. Speaker selection is the #1 factor in amp voicing. Speaker swaps can make or break an amp and this is highly objective. The transformers and tubes used make a difference also . Don't know how close the RI iron compares to the vintage iron. It would be interesting to AB a vintage PR beside a RI using identical speakers and tubes with same bias, if that is even possible. It is what it is I guess...BN
Yep, I put a Weber 10a100 in my 78 PR and became a favourite amp. Much nicer than the original speaker. Mine has mods but uses original drilling. Mods are just a Standby and a bias adjustment pot where the external speaker jack was. Thing is running to factory spec, over time it's had a couple parts replaced but only as necessary. Cost me less than a reissue and will hold its value, perhaps even appreciate.
i am jealous, both you and jbone were able to fit a 10 inch speaker in your amp. i had to buy a cabinet to use a ten inch speaker. ---------- if you appreciate what you have... it becomes more.
Here's an interesting VC! Looks like it might be cool for harp with 2 eight inch speakers. No affiliation. Just sharing: https://reverb.com/item/1592068-fender-vibro-champ-1971-custom-2x8-cabinet-silverface-spec Jay ---------- Music speaks where words fail.
BN that is good to know that it is in fact very similar to the original...thus the heavy price tag ..wonder how the VHT would compare to the OP selections and if it could be competitive with speaker and tube swap..probably a strech
I noticed a couple of folks mentioned the VHT Special 6...I have owned both a VHT Special 6 and a silverface Champ, and while I never did a direct A/B comparison, the 2 videos below are pretty close. Both shot in the same room with a Shure CM element.
Eventually, I sold both amps, but they both sounded great to my ears. The VHT has more versatility, and I would probably prefer the VHT vs. the Champ overall.
Last Edited by harpoon_man on Jan 25, 2016 5:33 PM
I did an AB test of the VHT and my 68 Bronco (VC). The Bronco is running a Weber 8F150. I could dile these two amps in so they sounded virtually identical. The VHT could get a little more honk where the Bronco could get slightly cleaner. We used comparable knob settings at times. I'll bet money that in a blind test, ten people would ID the two amps in an inconclusive manner...BN
In the vid of you and Ronnie, I hear a distinct difference between the MM and HG. I have played both, and a Victoria 5112, and a Vibro Champ, and the VHT.
Some of those, I have played side-by-side. Side-by-side, the 5112 has a lot more cut for playing with a band than the MM. My recollection of the HG was that it could dial in a fair bit of upper mids. I hear that in your playing in the video.
My memory of the MM is that it is much darker - like the treble is rolled off. I think this darker sound makes the amp sound "fatter" to some, but it is really just the lack of highs.
Having played both side-by-side in short order, would you agree that the MM is much darker than the HG?
@Cannon: I still have the Kalamazoo. After making my video with the Zoo, I tried out a few speakers in it and selected a Weber 10A125O with "H" dustcap. The Zoo sounds superb, especially with my Dennis Gruenling crystal element JT30. I'm down to just 2 amps now: the Zoo and a Bassman Reissue. They're sufficient for any playing situation that I deal with.
I agree the VHT is a steal for the money (I bought mine new for less than $200 US).
Ninja I would love to hear an amp off with all of those amps and maybe throw in the Zoo too.. the same mic same player..We are lucky there are so many good choices.....Harpoon I agree..I will die with my Zoo..Did a show last night in a fairly big hall and the 65 Princeton RI and it had plenty...and easy on the back...I had a Peavy Classic 50 and it about killed me.
