Did any of you watch the Today Show this morning? Justin Bieber was signing on of his new acoustic songs with a guitar accompaniment. The guitarist started blowing on a harmonica at the end of it. (I say blowing because to say he was playing would imply that he was actually doing something musically) Now I personally don't like the Biebes I generally think his music is terrible and he is a commercialized puppet. The harmonica player was also terrible.
However, that being said I like the general concept of this because maybe this one segment on a morning show will pique some young teen's interest in the harmonica. As the saying goes "all press is good press"
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think there is a video of this performance posted on the internet yet but as soon as there is one please lets link it and discuss. ---------- "The only way to get better is to play a little outside your comfort zone every time you play!"
Yeah . . . Bieber strikes me as a prime example of a very young kid who fell off the deep end in terms of believing his own PR. Kind of a shame how he's gone nutso the past few years.
But I agree with your take on the harp. Sounded pretty bad (being kind there) but putting the instrument in front of millions isn't a bad thing.
On the other hand, I don't know how many teens watch Today.
Last Edited by Rontana on Nov 18, 2015 6:59 AM
Thanks for throwing that link up Rontana. Yea a lot of bad harp playing. Just looking for the discussion. Is it hurtful to harp or helpful to see stuff like this. I know all of our ears will cringe at the sound of this but does that fact that it's played on a nationally televised show give interest? I checked out his album version and there was no harmonica. I like to see if anyone could or would do a good accompanying harmonica to this song. Also, kids might not watch Today but they sure watch Bieber in any format.
---------- "The only way to get better is to play a little outside your comfort zone every time you play!"
Last Edited by FBInsMan on Nov 18, 2015 7:01 AM
If we could channel the ghost of Yogi Berra here, he would probably say "Good is in the ear of the beholder." In other words, what sounds bad to a harp player likely sounds just fine (and maybe even good) to the average uninformed listener.
I mean, like it or not, most non-musicians who buy popular music would probably recognize Bob Dylan as a primo harp player . . . and would for sure know his name over that of Little Walter, the Sonny Boys, etc.
Having Bieber, or any other "name" talent utilize harp in front of a huge audience is a plus for the instrument itself, in that it might assist in making it more mainstream.
Last Edited by Rontana on Nov 18, 2015 8:01 AM
Bieber is a walking, talking example of everything that's wrong with today's music industry. Semi-pubescent kid, with nothing to say gets "discovered", by seasoned hollywood music producer/shysters on the basis of a you tube vid. Is then summarily carted off to la-la land where his overproduced pablum is sold to pre-pubescent girls. (Side note: for a hilarious take on the flaming hypocracy of all this, see Southpark's episode on the Jonas Bros. and purity rings, the "artist" may be different, but the business model is the same).
Of course then the teen grows up....well, sort of. A muli-millionaire before he's even old enough to drink, never had to struggle for his "art", nothing interesting to say about the world or the human condition, and hence no ability to assemble any interesting material. Only now the kiddie business is over too. And there you go. I know, i know but he's got a gazillion $. True, and now if he'd just go away instead of polluting the airwaves with his crap everything would be fine.
I sincerely doubt that hearing harp played,.... badly..... in this context is gonna bring in a trove of new harp fans.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Nov 18, 2015 12:11 PM
@Rontana: Dylan could be said to make the harmonica a bit more mainstream, when he was in his heyday. Did that produce a lot of good harp players? Well, I´m not convinced, but I get your point. He certainly inspired a lot of folks to blow like him, but I suspect the only ones really excited about that were the harmonica manufacturers. I suspect that the only thing that would be really good for the harmonica, if we were set to make it more mainstream, would be several good harmonica players at the media forefront. The best outcome from that would probably be that people in general, and other musicians in particular, started to treat the instrument as an ... instrument. Otherwise, what are the benefits of making it mainstream?
No, that does not do anything for harmonica in my opinion in this day and age with YT etc. and besides anyone who is really taking a keen interest in watching JB will probably not have an inkling of interest in musicianship of any instrument maybe interested in a girly looking boy, baseball caps, trainers and hair gel.lol ----------
"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
I don't know that its really bad harp; just very basic, something someone with only a casual acquaintance with the instrument might be able play after a few minutes practice. To me it wasn't much worse than some of Bob Dylans early harp playing. It had a place in the dynamic, it brought in a new sound, it fairly well fitted in with the song. If you had no preconceived ideas about how a harp should be played you might even find the tone pleasant. I bet a lot of the punters loved it, and if it inspired someone to pick up an instrument then good... (or not; there's enough bad players out there) ---------- Lucky Lester
I guess what bothers me is that the standards of the general public are so much lower for harmonica than for other instruments and vocals... if somebody just got up and sort of mashed on the guitar.. nobody would like it...if, so someone was a clumsy singer they would be gone in a minute... but when used as a gimick.. even with an audience that likes to listen to music, even if played at a very basic way... it gets a big response
this is true for country and pop music. you better be able to pick or sing your ass off if you are going to get up at the Oprey, but play clumsy harp chugging a few chords and everybody eats it up.
Marine1896- I looked into buying a musical saw once. They actually sell them separately, unsharpened so you don't hurt yourself, but they cost more unsharpened than sharpened.
Another instrument on my list- I've got one right now but I want a whole set- the drill bits for drilling out a cavity for deadbolt locks and door knobs. They make a really nice little chime noise if you hit em with a drumstick, and they nest together easy for storage. They are wicked sharp though (in the cut you kind of way, not pitch!). I've wondered about getting a set from the factory unsharpened, but I imagine there would be some tuning involved too. We actually used one in one of our recordings. Sounds kind of like a triangle.
Has anyone else noticed that Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber seem to be turning into the same person?
Walterharp: 'I guess what bothers me is that the standards of the general public are so much lower for harmonica than for other instruments and vocals..'
Cool. Ain't it great? You can be a mediocre player and people think you're a maestro. A few clumsy chugs on a harp and people lap it up.. it just gets better and better. What a powerful and awesome instrument! ---------- Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Nov 18, 2015 10:04 PM
"All press is good press" maybe. A lot of folks bought harmonicas when Bob Dylan started playing. I know one guy who started because he was sure anyone could do it better! A lot of guitar/ukulele/banjo players also blow a few chords while performing. Always brings applause.
The Beatles and the Stones did plenty for the harp's popularity.
Unless you are ok not getting paid to pay a gig or not gigging, you are selling something harmonica related. Popularity counts. It's ok to be ok with the previous mentioned things, though.
I agree with didjcripey. The harmonica part fit the song. It was a simple part, but there's nothing wrong with that... in "Cinnamon Girl", Neil Young's entire solo consists of the same ONE note. I think Michael Rubin's also on board that, when it comes to music: if it sounds good, it is good. You don't need to be a technical wizard to play good music.
As far as the question posed by the OP, as to whether this is "good publicity": yes, it is good publicity. This performance could result in someone being turned onto harmonica, someone who might fall in love with the instrument and later study the great harp players.
Anytime the harmonica gets mainstream exposure, it's good for the instrument. If new people don't learn about harmonica, then this is just an esoteric group for elitists to condescend to others. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
I watched two songs: the first on the big stage, the second being the duo thing with the guitarist/rack-harp guy.
In the first song, Bieber's singing was atrociously bad. He missed every fourth or fifth note. I was wincing.
Then he pulled out one of his twin ear-monitors, sat down, and did the duo thing. His singing was much better. He isn't Babyface, it certainly wasn't Sunday's Best, but he was a decent R&B singer. The guitarist supported him perfectly with chording. The harp was just....harp. It fit into what was going on. Would Stevie Wonder on chromatic, or P.T. Gazell, have added a lot more? Sure. Nobody was paying any attention to the harp--except you guys. I'm a harmonica player and I wasn't paying much attention to it. I was listening to the song, and to Bieber's suddenly much-better voice.
I don't see why mainstream is "good". Hell, the only thing mainstream does nowadays for music is destroying musical value, falling to the huge financial business.
Is this good for harmonica? Not even close. He probably regards the instrument as a toy, as a "fill", and that's the message he is giving to the audience.
Why bother?
If what we want is harp to be considered as a serious instrument, these are the kind of performances that we must avoid.
Harmonica becomes valuable when the player invests his time into it. I work for a company that sells the Japanese Suzuki harmonicas, so I have an interest in more people buying harmonicas. Just in case I have not made it clear enough times on this forum, I am the guy who performs the warranty repairs on Suzuki harps bought in America. I am grateful for the privilege. But this is the age of virtual reality, and musicianship takes dedication. Harmonicas are so 19th century . . . If this performance helps to keep harp in front of the public, then we all benefit. On another note, I understand that Mick Jagger plays on the new Don Henley album. Anyone checked that out?
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 19, 2015 9:15 PM
JohnRed, mainstream may or may not be good (the Beatles were mainstream). Mainstream certainly pays better though. The thing is a lot of people pick up a harmonica after hearing Tom Petty or Neil Young, and some of them play passable folk on it and some go on to blues. If someone hears the harmonica playing behind Biebs and picks it up there is a chance they will get good with it. Or not. Even if they don't they may have a lot of fun and appreciate music more. I think there is a bias a lot of us suffer from where we don't realize that there are hacks on every instrument. There are guitar players who just play power chords. I've been moved by their music sometimes. There are piano players who just play chords who get by. Is one guy playing backing harp going to change the harmonica world? No, a lot. It's funny though. I hear harmonica all over the place. It seems to be the go to instrument on a lot of TV shows for a lot of moods. There is good harmonica in Kesha/Timberland's 'Timber' (even although it was basically a stolen Lee Oskar riff) and at the beginning of Chris Cornell's 'I nearly forgot my broken heart' (apparently that was Chris Cornell playing, too). That's good for harmonica because it gives the harmonica more exposure, and that means a few more people will pick up harmonicas. Drummers listen to songs with good drums. Guitar players listen to songs with good guitar. More harmonica players means more people to listen to good harmonica.
And it almost seems like you are getting at two separate issues- getting to play vs. being taken seriously. I figure if you play well you will be taken seriously. Jason or Boris or Howard could show up at just about any type of musical audition and convince someone that they needed to rework their whole production to feature them. That doesn't mean a hack walking into an open mic is going to get any respect without playing well, but I'm more concerned about what people think of my playing after they've heard me play than before. :)
Here is the old issue about harmonica being taken seriously again. Unless you're in the business of selling harmonicas, gear or lessons, why would it matter? Its to a harp players advantage for people to have low expectations. If you've got the chops they'll be impressed, otherwise they'll think you're poseur playing a toy. Don't blame the instrument if you're not taken seriously.
Why are we harp players so freaking conformist. We have a beautiful instrument in our hands and we don't care enough to make it shine. For the sake of music. It's on us to make expectations go up.
Nacoran: it is really hard for me, if not impossible, to see anyone on that crowd taking up harp, or any instrument for that matter. Maybe if I let my prejudices apart for a few moments, I could agree. But they may be too strong. I took up harp on listening to a bluegrass instrumental album, "Strictly Instrumental", feauturing Charlie McCoy on the harp. And it was the beautiful melodies he managed to create from such a small thing that set my mind: "I'm gonna learn how to play that thing". Who would want to play like that guy? Blew a few notes, that's it. Nothing impressive. If we want people to take up harmonica, we need to make them see: "Hey, this is not a toy. You can make music with this, and beautiful for that matter". You put the example of Timber. Pitbull completely ripped off the riff from Lee Oskar's "San Francisco Bay". People don't even know that the mentioned song features a harp. People don't know who Lee Oskar is, and that he filed a lawsuit against Pitbull, who made fortunes at his expenses. If that's good exposure for you, well we have quite opposite views on this. But for me, that consumerism kind of exposure will never be good for any instrument or musical genre.
...I dunno.. Personally I don't care whether anyone takes up the harmonica or not...I really don't feel any personal satisfaction or gratification regarding that. But from the point of view that continued interest in the instrument is vital to the ongoing viability of the current community of enthusiasts, then I guess I have a stake in it. I've never been really sure where my own interest in the instrument originates, so it's very hard to know whether I think the kind of exposure described in the OP is likely to contribute to its popularity or not. Maybe. I think 'love me do', 'please please me' etc probably did influence me in some way. I never questioned the legitimacy of harmonica in popular music. I think it's use in movies and tv incidental music all fed into that. I do believe it still is quite prevalent in those media. I mean, I never considered whether the harp was good or bad, when I was a kid. It was just legit, because the performance was legit... So maybe the use in the OP is just a continuation of that. I really don't think the harp is in much danger, despite the state of blues music. Blues music may be struggling to pull a crowd but harmonica still has all the attributes which have led to its current popularity. The perception that it's easy to play is important in that. If people see it's easy to play and legit...like a drum...I think they'll still be interested for a while yet. I dunno if drummers or guitarists or trumpeters ever worry about whether their instrument is popular. I mean...I sometimes regret the time I put into harp rather than learning a proper instrument, but other times I think how weird it is to have skills on this ridiculous instrument, and that people are interested in hearing it. It's just bloody odd I think, but it's been around for a while and so it must have something going for it
JohnRed, I bet a lot of people hear the harp part in Timber and think it's cool. That may lead a few people to harp (it wasn't featured in the video, so people may not put the sound together with the instrument. No offense to the guy who played it but I saw an interview with him and he's not the type of guy who would be featured in a 'hip' video (I probably wouldn't either!) But it was good harp. Yes, it was obviously ripped off from Lee Oskar and I hope he makes money in his lawsuit, but that's a separate issue than whether it is catchy. In fact, if he wins his lawsuit he stands to make a good deal of money that he wouldn't have made otherwise. (It is pretty stupid to rip off a riff that closely without taking the time and spending a few bucks to secure the rights to do so. You can get permission to use a clip a lot cheaper than what you'll pay when you get sued.)
Like I said though, I hear harmonica all over the place these days. There is a metal band I hear on the radio with a whole harmonica intro (the song is terrible but the riff is pretty cool) and you can't go past Discovery/History Channel/A&E/TLC on the TV without hearing a bunch (whether you will discover anything resembling history there is another question these days).
And like I said, there is a difference between getting respect for your playing vs. getting respect from people who think harmonica is a toy because they got one as a stocking stuffer as a kid and never got around to learning to play.
People come to instruments a lot of ways. I picked up harmonica because I write lyrics. I was in a band that was using some of my lyrics but I couldn't play guitar or keyboard because of tendon problems in my wrists. The guitar player/lead singer didn't want a backup singer on stage singing because he thought it would take the focus away from him. They gave me whatever it took to make me look like I wasn't the lead singer- maracas, a harmonica, tambourine... it was a toy to start with. I was supposed to be the guy who just wailed on a couple notes. The guitar player isn't into music anymore. Bass player quit playing too. The drummer/backup guitar guy still plays some, but I probably get more out of harp than they do out of their guitar and drums these days, and it started off as a cheap instrumental choice.
People get here in all sorts of ways. There is the old saying, 'there is no such thing as bad publicity'.
Whether I'm playing or working I'm selling myself. Period. I feel no responsibility for keeping harmonica alive and in the minds of others.
A while back there was a similar thread about an energized performance on harp (Graham McC...?). The video was titled "Amazing Harp Solo(?)" and showed enthusiastic appreciation from the crowd while we sat at our keyboards and picked him apart.
Tough crowd.
Edit: To condense and actually make my point.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Nov 21, 2015 1:14 PM
so,it was not as bad as i was expecting after reading this thread :) although one of my pet peeves is how you can go onstage and play harmonica like that,but other instruments are held to a higher standard.as walterharp says above.
it could very well have spurred some teenybopper to but a harmonica. that teenager could be the next kim wilson,for all i know. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
Nate wrote: Like I said though, I hear harmonica all over the place these days. There is a metal band I hear on the radio with a whole harmonica intro (the song is terrible but the riff is pretty cool) and you can't go past Discovery/History Channel/A&E/TLC on the TV without hearing a bunch (whether you will discover anything resembling history there is another question these days).
I heard some instrument music while on hold recently that was obviously a (highly treated) Richter tuned diatonic harmonica as the center of the arrangement, but almost nobody experiencing the tune would have perceived it as harmonica. I could tell by the chords, you see . . .
