I’d like to get some input from you guys about tongue blocking and lip pursing.
I’m not looking to start a debate about which is better. I just want to tell you about what I have been going through recently and see if any of you relate and can help me “get to the next step.”
If anything, I am a student. If you just pay attention, you can pick up some very useful information – especially if you hang around a bunch of smart people.
I have been playing the harmonica since 1972. I grew up playing the clarinet so when I picked up my first harp the concept of forming a good embouchure to play clean single notes with tone was no problem for me. Like many, for years I saw the little illustrations that came on the inside of every Hohner Harmonica box – the one showing the tongue covering three holes and only allowing air to one of them – and thought it was interesting, but “No thank you. I’m doing just fine MY WAY.” Even after hanging out on the forum for years and reading numerous discussions about tongue blocking, I still resisted. I rationalized that, “I play octaves and splits, so I guess I do tongue block – somewhat.” The few times I tried tongue blocking to play single notes it was so foreign to me that I gave up after a minute or two. I was more interested in staying in my comfort zone and doing what I was used to.
In addition to the above, I have been exposed to players like Mitch Kashmar who tongue blocks 100% of the time. Or Brendan Power who lip purses 100% of the time. I think Dennis Gruenling tongue blocks just about everything. I kept hearing about how tongue blocking gives you “FAT TONE” and mentally, I totally disagreed with that notion because in my case, my tongue got in the way and killed my tone. I kept hearing about “Throat Bending” and “Bending from your diaphragm.” And so it went. I didn’t lose any sleep over it but it was like channel surfing and stumbling across Telemundo. I might watch it for a minute, but I didn’t understand much of what they were saying.
Fast forward to The Harmonica Collective in Indianapolis at the end of April. I’m not sure what was said or what hit me, but I came away from that weekend convinced that if I wanted to be a better harmonica player I had to learn how to tongue block. I was simply missing out on too much without that tool in my arsenal. So I went home and started practicing. At first, it was like I had never put a harmonica in my mouth. It was so difficult. I could not even play a clean solid note on one hole. I almost had to position my tongue using my fingers to get it out of the way and then breathe in and out of the harp. I was so used to playing splits and octaves that I just could not close off the left side of my mouth to play a single note out of the right side. I would literally take my nightly walk with my dogs and just find one hole that I could get a good seal on and breathe in and out. In and out. I felt like I had gone back to kindergarten. Slowly I made progress. I got to where I could play the simple melodies while tongue blocking. But it was still a struggle to maintain the relaxed open embouchure that is required. Whenever I tried to do a draw bend, my lips would purse and I would partially close off the right side of my mouth and I was toast. I had to train myself not to move my lips when I did a draw bend but instead to focus on the back of my throat. Lo and behold, I was throat bending! Wow! What a concept!
I found two things. First, I discovered that indeed there really is something to that “FAT TONE” guys talk about. When I learned to stay relaxed and let the back of my tongue and throat do the heavy lifting, there was something unique about the tone. Second, I discovered that my vibrato got better. I don’t know why – perhaps someone can explain it to me – but here-to-fore I really only had decent vibrato on the 2 draw. With tongue blocking, all of sudden my 3 draw vibrato was much improved. I still struggle with vibrato on the other holes but 4 is starting to come along too. So I’ve had several AHA Moments in the past couple of months.
But still questions remain. Can you overblow while tongue blocking? Can you blow bend 8, 9 and 10 while tongue blocking. As previously mentioned, Mitch Kashmar tongue blocks everything and he is famous for his 8 blow bend vibrato (among other things). But he can’t overblow. At the Collective, I witnessed an exchange between Jason Ricci and Mitch and Jason A) marveled at Mitch’s 8 blow bend tongue blocked vibrato; and B) was frustrated that he could not even do a 8 blow bend while tongue blocking. So you see giants having certain limitations because of the way they play.
I found some of my answers in a Ronnie Shellist video.
This helped me a lot. But again, questions remain and I wonder of some of you could share your experience with this challenge and perhaps help move the ball forward. Thanks in advance.
---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Aug 22, 2015 9:05 AM
Yep, you can overblown tongue blocking. I'm a 'mostly pucker' guy myself and I use quite a bit of overblowing in my playing. I agree with, for example, arzajacs opinion that OB is no more advanced technique than ordinary bending and gave a few hours to prove to myself that I could OB in my 'non-preferred' embouchure. And I could. Sounded like shit, though. But if practiced it would get alright I guess... Still can't blowbend TB ;) ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Some players overblow with a tongue block. Joe Filisko used to do it before he decided that overblowing didn't fit with his (largely traditional) vision of he harmonica.
Likewise, many players can play the high blow bends with a tongue block. One way in to this is to start with a harp in a low key. This puts the high notes at a lower pitch level, which can help make it easier to find the sweet spot for those bends.
In both cases, shaping your oral cavity to access the bend (or overblow) is a matter of tongue placement, When your tongue is on the harp, it has less mobility to move backward in your mouth in quest for the right chamber size to tune your mouth to the bend. One solution to this problem is to use your tongue to raise the floor of the resonant chamber. =========== Winslow
One other thing I forgot to mention and ask about. It seems to me that I get better TB bends when I block the holes (this is getting technical) with the underside of the left side of my tongue. It seems that by having the tip of my tongue free I can do more with it while the other part of my tongue remains in contact with the harp. Kind of like holding a package under your arm and still having your hands free to open a door. A poor analogy but maybe you catch my drift. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Aug 21, 2015 1:46 PM
I'm new to this forum but looking at Ron Shellist's video i see that his approach is very similar to what Lee Sankey's videos on tongue blocking show. Sankey has 20+ videos progressing through what's possible with tongue blocking. Most of the folks are way ahead of me in skill level so I thought i would just throw that out there as another resource.
For my first few years I LP and was just not sounding like my heroes so as frustrating as it felt I went back to scales...slowly...putting my tounge on the tines and on and off going up and down my scales slowly TB cleanly then slurring into other holes then gradually getting faster and recognising those rasps I heard on the records and within a few months it was happening and no joking six months later I was struggling to LP again except on hole 1 and the draw 1 abwahh/cupping for my Sonny Boy II stuff and sometimes on the hole 9 and 10 hole depending on gapping of those reeds and harp keys. After that I was off. A big help also was I had a valve reel to reel player/recorder and almost from day one as painful as it sounded sometimes I always recorded myself and that was a big help (that was also my only amp/mic until the early 90's) also for learning your own tone, blowing long notes and just holding it to make it even or for vibrato etc. I discovered that TB 7 hole blow bending for myself out of curiosity but did not really start to use it until I heard Mitch Kashmars almost beautiful 7 hole blow bend and vibrato and the way he employed it in his playing and being a dunce I followed suit, that blow/bend vibrato takes a bit of work and control but once you get it.... it is so sweet. I can OB and TB-OB but it's not my thing and I have let the technique go really.
JR has a great acoustic tone I think I'm leaning towards him slightly as he is doing a trad thing now and again that interests me but his amplified blues/rock thing and all the pedals is to synthetic sounding for my taste but he is going to surprise us all yet I'm sure.
I should add apart from my extensive record collection these two books and their hip groovy ways helped me back in the 80's...
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Aug 21, 2015 2:18 PM
I can play all blow bends and all overbends except fist hole on regular keys without too much effort, but it is still more comfortable for me to do it lip blocked. ---------- Excuse my bad English. My videos.
I don't TB often or particularly well, but it is ridiculously easy to blow bend while TBing (assuming you are able to blow bend lip pursing). While TBing and playing the 8, 9 or 10 hole, simply pinch the right side of the corner of your mouth together narrowing the air apperture and the note will drop. At the beginning, it may help you if you press your tongue harder against the harp as you do this, but that is not actually necessary. Try it.
Interesting question and input Tom. I have played solidly for 18 months come September 8th. I needed to make music again after an accident precluded my ability to continue playing guitar. I have never lip pursed anything unless absolutely necessary. (i.e. - bending the 1 hole is convenient by LP but it's just as easy to block the 4,3, and 2 hole with the left side of my tongue and draw & bend from the left side of my mouth) I have tongue blocked since I began so I don't know what I don't know. I can draw bend and blow bend via TB. I can play octaves, TB. (Is it possible to play tongue slaps or flutter tongue using lip pursing?) These questions give rise to many more as you mentioned that you play TB easier on the left underside of your tongue leaving the tip to adjust things. I have always used the top part of my tongue? How do you perform a dip bend? How do you play shakes? My shakes work better on the right side of my tongue. TB allows easy switches between the 1 and 4 hole by using both sides of the tongue & drawing or blowing from either side of the mouth. The 6 draw bend is easier with the tip of the tongue at first but later the whole right side of the tongue becomes easy to use. I find that the deeper I place the harp in my mouth, the easier it is to get better vibrato. The more I drop my jaw, the better my tone. This could go on for lots of things but I thought it might be interesting as I have no idea how to lip purse, since I have never learned to do that yet? Hope this is a helpful post as everyone else seems to have played for years with a predominance for lip pursing.
Years ago, I wanted to improve my tongue blocking technique. It was a slow go. Then I had some nerve problems in my face and a doc administered a type of botox. He was a quack and injected too much around the left side of my mouth, numbing it pretty severely. For about three months, I COULDN'T lip purse at all. Let me tell you, nothing will force you to embrace TBing like not having any alternative. Thankfully, the injection wore off and I got back to normal. But by then my comfort with TB had gone through the roof. These days I'd say 80% of my playing is tongue blocked. I can bend everything up and down the harp, and can overblow the 4 hole on most harps (though I'm still not comfortable enough doing that to use it in performance). My GOAL is to be able to TB everything, OBs and all.
Big picture thoughts on tongue-blocking:
Does it sound better? IMO (for my playing), yes.
Is it essential to learn to tongue block? Yes.
Is it essential to play that way all the time? No.
Can a lip purser have a rich, fat sound? Yes.
Can you play fast while tongue blocking? Yes.
REALLY fast? Yes (go ask Mark Ford and Sugar Blue).
Is it an easy technique to learn? No.
Is it worth the work it takes to learn? Yes.
Does anyone care if learning to TB takes you 4 weeks or 4 years? No! Enjoy the journey.
Last Edited by MN on Aug 22, 2015 4:30 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Very helpful. Another thing that I forgot to mention that I have noticed is that I find it easier to warble while TB. It just seems to be a looser embouchure and moving side to side TB seems to give me a little freedom to slop around.
I've been playing harp for 43 years. I've been playing golf for 53 (I'm 60). Going from LP to TB is a lot like changing your grip in golf. A lot of golfers have poor grips and when they try to change it the "new" grip feels totally foreign to them. Most are not willing to stick with it and "pay the price" long enough to reap the benefits. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Tom, I guess it depends on several factors. If you're hooked on the traditional blues of the 20s-60s, TBing ist the way to go. You simply can't play Little Walter (as an example) if you don't tongue-block.
If you are more into more "modern" styles which places emphasis on speed, OBs, ODs, less on slaps, splits, octaves etc., lipping is great.
Ideally, you can do everything and choose to the right thing at the right point in the right style.
However, experience shows that very, very few people master it all.
So, there is no "right" way, merely a preferable technique depending on your goals.
As a "traditionalist" I TB 99% of the time, including top-hole bends, unless I choose to use LPing for certain percussive effects. But I don't OB or OD.
@harpaholic it is my honor to bless you over and over again. These are examples of TB and Pucker they show their uses in different situations. The same tunes can show many different example of playing. For example the last one can be used for third position in a pure minor. The first one could also be an example of using computer software.
The second the use of the 9 b9 used in a riff. ----------
It's great that you are at this point in your harmonica journey, Tom, because you are on the threshold of some very exciting discoveries.
TB'ing is all about manipulating the middle and back of the tongue, opening and manipulating the back of the throat and taking control over your diaphragm. The thing about puckering is that it allows you to circumvent the use of these vital aspects of playing harmonicas well. I didn't "discover" how to fully bend notes, articulate, do a vibrato, etc. without using the tip of my tongue until I had my first real teacher who happens to be a U-Blocker. He made me curl my tongue for him before he'd take me on as a student.
The problem was pretty much everything I'd done to that point was with the front part of my tongue back, to say, its middle section. When I had to anchor the tip of my tongue to the front of the harp, I was lost. I was forced to tinker around until I finally discovered how to use my throat to get those lower draw bends. That really set me free, harmonically speaking. I could easily get on key with those low bends where I'd always struggled before. My vibrato gradually transferred from my tongue to my throat and once I was able to do that it wasn't long before I could get my diaphragm into the act. I could, for the first time, really feel the vibrations all through my airways. Huge difference!
There were (are) other benefits to having to use the whole of your airways to play the harmonica. Tone, tone and tone. You also learn to be much more effective at using glottal stops to articulate notes. Those, to me are much more guttural and soulful sounding than tongue articulations. The list is extensive.
But as Ronnie and others point out, being able to seamlessly and quickly transition back and forth between Puckering and Tongue Blocking enables you to have the best of both worlds.
I haven't even touched on the many cool effects you can get with TB'ing. I'm sure you already know about slaps, pulls, etc. I wanted to highlight just the benefits of learning to use the front of your tongue less and the other more soulful and full-bodied sounding effects afforded by the other resources at your disposal.
[BTW, I dropped U-Blocking and now TB'ing is my preferred embouchure. But I won't lie; it took me years to get there and I still use puckered bends when I need spot-on intonation and will often UB for high blow bends.]
Oh, and I second the motion about Portnoy's Masterclass. It was the key that unlocked the door to blues harp for me. And now Jerry has generously posted the video version on Youtube:
The most important thing is to keep at it!
Good luck,
Michelle
---------- SilverWingLeather.com email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Aug 22, 2015 4:16 PM
I started by lip pursing for 2 or 3 years and made pretty good progress that way. But my intention was to learn to "fill out" my sound and this was not happening with mostly single-note playing. I tried to learn tongue blocking, and found it awkward. It was a big step back from where I was. But I was inspired by a fellow forum member (Andrew Larson) who was demonstrating that everything "modern" (overbends, etc.) can be done in TB embouchure and he was getting good very quickly. He did this by going 100% TB for a period of time. I decided to follow suite. It took me about a year to relearn how to bend, tongue switch the 1 hole, and to get comfortable with TB. It then took probably another year or so for it to feel natural. At that time I learned to overblow in TB. Anyway, my 100% commitment to TBing was just to force me to learn, without any intention to stay that way. But to be honest I've never felt a need to become a "blended" embouchure player. One thing I've really noticed is that if you want to emulate the classic tunes of the past masters, you'll find it easier if you TB. I also have satisfied my ambition to fill out my sound. Now I'm constantly slapping, pulling, and splitting and enjoying myself immensely. I find it harder to OB and blow bend in TB, but these are getting better and better over time. This story is only to encourage people who have not given TB a fair shake (which I also find easier) to give it a go. But realize that it will take time and effort. And if you are happy with what you're doing, then keep on doing that and being happy. ----------
Personally I play everything tongue blocked except the blow bends and always have. I can play them tongue blocked, but find I have more control over them lip pursed. I don't use overblows that much, but when I play them they are always tongue blocked. I can't play them lip pursed at all.
Boris uses the term "lip block". Thank you! To me this is closer to TB tone because your jaw stays dropped, loose, and open. AS a LBer, I can play splits all over the harps and various positions. No problem moving quickly between Lib Block and splits. I'm still battling the TB to one side, but I have many rhythmic effects I can do LB. BY lip blocking I can get clean overbends, under control and very bendable. Even though I have heard a few TB overblows and maybe couple overdraws sounded, I have never heard them played they way top lip blockers do.
I use TB as default embouchere. Blow bends, mainly TB, some harps I need to lip the 10, some I need to TB. But...with practice can do either way...just at the moment, on harps lower than A I find the 10 easier to bend TB and from A up, control of the 10 is easier lipped...just training. OB/OD...I only use the 6 really, and I can do that TB but usually better lipped, if I need sustain it. Funnily enough, the only OD I play is the 7, and only on G harps, and only TB...but, it's just an accidental discovery...I haven't seriously pursued the ODs, just try them occasionally and found these G harp 7ODs were easy TB, couldn't get them lipped. These days I'm a pretty lousy lipper. Played lipped for ... I dunno...ever since I started playing... Arguably in the early 80s...until about...2010 I guess...discovered David Barrett through this forum, but I was already TB, just didn't realise that TB bending was legit. I'd like to mix it up a bit more but just can't find the need for enough lip to get me doing it..have to make some sort of rule for transitioning maybe like JP suggests
I think a players should be able to play both techniques. I'm weaker bending TBing. It's coming along.
---------- I'm out of the Biz for a while till I get over my burnout. You can try HarveyHarp or arzajac, or just look the page nacoran put together under Forum Search. .
