Love old BBQs comments. But a bit unduly harsh Maybe he shoulda been a UFC fighter or a Hellfire preacher instead of a harp player cause he is always gonna kick ass or damn somebody not up to his standards . Music should be fun and not just another crappy job. An unknown wants to sit in-just say no if you feel that way-an audition is a bit over the top methinks
Back when I was teaching English I would have felt the same way about his run on sentences and use of punctuation. But hey we are all having too much fun to take this tin sandwich too seriously.
As George Carlin might say- why do we call a piano player a pianist but a race care driver is not called a racist ?
It may be harsh, but with someone like Barley Nectar, people who tend to be hard headed don't take hints well at all, and the only way you get through to them is to royally read them the freaking riot act. Many of those old blues guys would be a lot harsher than I am, trust me. They wouldn't think twice about publicly humiliating you if you didn't get the damned message ASAP.
If you say no to both not taking the time to learn basic music theory and not working on getting your time straight, using former NFL cornerback Deion Sanders on the point description, "You ain't ready for prime time," says that you're not ready to even THINK of sitting in with pros and you're still at the jam hack stage. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
BBQ Bob is kind in comparison with what I've seen. I've seen guys introduce a person sitting in and building him up to be bigger than life. Once, they are on the stage and can't really leave, they turn and dump all over the guy sitting in. Belittling him and making him look about two inches tall.
I've seen a guy get built up to be bigger than life. Announce to the audience that the band was going to play an Albert King song. After announcing it, the guitar player decides it would be a good time to hit the restroom leaving the guest vocalist stranded without a guitar player on a song clearly needing a guitarist.
I've seen people who asked to sit in told sure and been introduced the following way. "We've got a friend in the house. Well, he's not really our friend. We just met him, but he tells us he can play harmonica real good. We don't remember his name, but we like to invite him up to play with us."
I have seen the above a couple of times. The best one was when the band leader was a great multi-instrumentalist who played harp. He proceeded to shred the guy and cut his head publicly.
I've also seen this one a few times. A guy was persistent in asking to sit in with a friend's band. They invite him up and tell him the key of the song is Ab. He doesn't have the right harp in his four harp kit. They start the song and leave the guy hanging. He can't really exit the stage, but he should have tried. They offered to give him a solo. He had to beg off. At the end of the song, they thank him for sitting in and doing a fine job. They also said, pretend your a real musician and next time bring a full set of harmonicas.
Afterward, the guys in the band and I went out for dinner. They asked me why I never asked to sit in with them? I responded, "I saw what you did to [name of prominent harp player removed]." They laughed and said, "joe, we wouldn't do that to you. We like you. You've been kind and respectful to us. You're not a big asshole."
I could go on and on with these stories for another hour, but I am going out for the evening.
The moral of the story, when you ask to sit in, be prepared for anything. When you mess with the bull, sometimes you'll get the horns.
By the way, every single one of these guys was a harp player who asked to sit in and was kind of a dick about it. Some of you might even recognize the names of the harp players. One toured for years with a real legendary artist.
I will not ask to sit in, now. I understand, now, that it puts band leaders in an uncomfortable position-- especially those whose bands depend on their gigs to feed their family.
A club owner wants a professional show, not a jam.
Back in the day. though, before I'd ever played in a working band, I did ask to sit in. I didn't know better. I was young, I was fearless, I knew I could play. I was hungry to play.
So, at various times, in small clubs in Vancouver, Canada, I was cheeky enough to ask Albert Collins, Charlie Musselwhite and Floyd Dixon ("Hey Bartender") if I could sit in. They all agreed, without any real hesitation. I must have had the gift of gab. I didn't get booted off stage, I got applauded, and I got compliments from Albert, Charlie and Floyd. Maybe they were lying through their teeth.
This was in the mid 70s. 40 years ago. It was a different time. I know there was more work for blues musicians than now.
I've stopped asking to sit in. I do not hint that I'd like to sit in. But-- I sometimes bring my harps with me when I go to a blues show. I leave them in the car. Once in a while I hear this from the band leader: "Did you bring your harps with you? Do you want to sit in?
(On the west coast of Canada, the blues world is a small world. Everybody knows everybody.)
My answer, always-- "Yeah, they're in the car! I'll bring them in for the next set!"
I think that's a little sad wolf k. How lucky you were, to have not only seen and met great players, but you got to play with them. You only live once. Had you had the attitude you have now, that wouldn't have happened.
I know its a living for people, but some people take it TOO DAMNED SERIOUSLY. I know the blues is sacred, but that's personal. When you play out its ENTERTAINMENT. So you stuff up on stage, so what? Sometimes people will empathise with you and be really appreciative anyway. Are we talking the Albert Hall, or some local pub? If someone wants to be the hard assed bluesman, telling' everyone how it is, being BRUTALLY HONEST, then good luck to them. Perhaps they never sucked at timing and tone, never played with musicians that were out of their league, never asked to sit in before they were ready. They would be really lucky.
I say, ask if you can sit in if you think you're ready. Band leaders can always say no. If you suck, oh well, too bad, you look like an idiot. Reality check. Deal with it, and get better or give up. If you don't get it, you won't be allowed to sit in any more.
The difference between a beginner and an expert is that the expert has failed more times than the beginner has ever tried. ---------- Lucky Lester
Strikes me that the folks who want to belittle or humiliate those who politely ask to sit in (publicly, privately, or even in a forum) are likely afflicted with more than a few personal problems.
They apparently never learned that constantly pulling out the metaphorical ruler and trying to play alpha dog usually just gets you laughed at. There's never a good excuse for an unwarranted lack of civility . . . especially if you bill yourself as a pro. Acting like an ass-hat is not professional behavior . . . in any field
It's really easy to say "yes," "no," "sure thing," or "thanks but no thanks."
Keep asking, Barley. Life's way too short to pay more than a second's notice to the ultra-serious, rude, and bombastic ---------- Marr's Guitars
Over a decade's experience designing, building & playing Cigar Box Guitars
Last Edited by Rontana on Aug 01, 2015 4:32 AM
Wow, what a thread. Both sides of the coin to the enth degree. I did not suspect this would get so personal. Ya know folks, I do instantly consider all this stuff before asking. No way I'd ask Charlie Musselwhite to set in! I know my place. I'm talking bar/club bands here. If I'm loaded, which happens sometime, I would not ask because I know this slows me down. Some of these guys are full time musicians but most have a day job and do gigs for fun. You can tell when a band is accepting of set ins. Someone gets up and plays with them. They give a pretty girl a tambourine. They are a loose knit pickup band playing there own version of standards with big smiles on there faces. These are the folks I approach. I could write success stories for four hours here about sitting in with folks I did not know at all but it would seem arrogant. Excessive arrogance is not a quality I appreciate in people although some may view me this way, in this thread.
This is not a blues area. Rock, folk, country music is the main attraction around here. Electric rock is in fast decline, which is my favorite. I say no slow blues because there is a mind set amoungst musicians that this is the only music that a harmonica can play. I have been fighting that sentiment for a long time. I actually get pissed about this as I have stated on this board. I tell the host band to just play the next song on the set list.
I do keep a 7 pack of harps in the glove box and am often asked to do a few songs with folks that know me. This is an honor and sometimes I do decline for one reason or another. When I do get up I play tastefully and wait for my ques. I felt this was understood in my OP. Musta been wrong there. LOL. Anyone can sit in with a band once. To be asked up the next time you are around, is the true testament of your abilities. I play because I love it as do the folks I play for/with. Never did it for money even when playing a whole gig, but that is a whole nother subject.
Bruce really kicked ass with the Allman Bros, didn't he!!! (:>)...BN
I think there are great responses on both sides of the fence.
If for example I was to vacation in Greece for 6 months, there would be no need to bring any harps with me, because you will soon be able to buy a full set there for 50 cents American.
So if you are “sitting” there with a new set of harps and have 6 months to kill, that would qualify as foreign territory, I guess you could just tell yourself, “I am on vacation no blue’s playing for me, no sir that would be rude, or you could perhaps ask to sit in with a band and make new friends. Didn’t huey travel Europe before he got his start? I’d bet, he asked to sit in Somewhere along the line. I also seem to remember a well known story of a young rod piazza asking the great George smith if he could sit in, next thing you know they are in a band together, making hit records.
If you liked that allman bros. clip, I have another you will like even better
When I worked as a bouncer or bartender I was afforded access to invitations of all types. For my own sake (and the band's) I eventually learned to only accept invites to practice before any gigging.
In the 70s I was pretty full of myself. Once I was dragged off to a talent contest on Long Island. When my turn came up I instructed the bass player as to exactly what I required from him. They only announced first thru third place but if they had announced last place I would have taken it, without doubt, since the judges were members of the band. (Lesson learned.)
I'm going to way in - just for fun - I've been in lots of these situations, I've asked, I've been asked, I've been asked as a band leader, I have asked as a Band leader and I have declined being asked to sit in... Here's how I looked at it... None of these people were big name, big money people - sometimes it was a train wreck, sometimes is was great and sometimes it was just OK - but generally the crowd loved it, it changes things up a bit, adds another dimension. If you can engage the audience, even a little, you've gone a long way towards winning them over. If a guy gets up and doesn't, from a professional or musical way, do well the crowd doesn't really care - watching a guy fall off a bicycle is entertaining !!! I think taking things too seriously does nothing to add to the enjoyment - why do Blues Bands always look so miserable in their photos - why would I want to go see a bunch of moody, surley, pissed off people play songs - give me a party band that knows how to have a good time. IMHO. ----------
If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by jawbone on Aug 02, 2015 9:17 AM
While I agree with the sentiments expressed There's never a good excuse for an unwarranted lack of civility . . and other similar comments I have to say this, I know I will live to regret saying this but someone needs to say it…….
DON’T SHOOT THE MESSENGER BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGE!
There I said it, I even used capital letters, which is a extremely rude thing to do. I get pissed when people here use the all caps button I am required to use it at work, then I come to this forum type a comment in, only to find the cap lock button is on, and I have to re -write what I wrote, only to find certain individuals using it as a means to emphasize the point they are trying to make.
It is especially rude To shout a response to a to a post you have not even bothered to read. Now having said all that
DON’T SHOOT THE MESSINGER BECAUSE OF THE MESSAGE
Bbq bob makes a valid point; some of us would rather not hear it But it warrants being said.
Now I do not wish to beat up on mr willis, he seems like a decent person, and he loves this little instrument as much as anyone here, But what is wrong with this picture? The band is playing a riff, he is playing something else Like I said I do not want to be too harsh, because how many times have I %$#%^ up that very same groove? And that is actually a somewhat hard riff to play on the harp … the riff “is” the groove and if you cannot play the groove you have no business up there.. If you find yourself in a similar situation and you are bluffing your way thru, it is not a crime, it happens to the best of us. However, if you continue to make the same mistakes over and over and over, then maybe someone “needs to shout at you” See how I did that? With out shouting. Lol
If you are going to ask to sit in, you should know the riffs to 10 or 12 songs, verbatim. If you do not know the riff to messin with the kid Why are you up on the bandstand to begin with? Yes I understand that jr. wells did not play the riff ,but you are not jr wells You need to know how to play the riff, then you can choose to use it or not. It has been 5 or 6 years since bruce sat in with the band If he has since done his homework and learned that riff my hat is off to him, if not it would be hard to take him serious.
Please excuse my use of all caps, I felt it was appropriate in this circumstance, as well as the use of the swear word.
Once I was at a professional meeting of my society. The band was good and the harp player was very good, we talked for a while and i actually did ask to sit in for a song. They did she got the katy and i took my one solo, and it was what was described before. the crowd went wild because they were from out of town, knew me and nobody knew the band.. i just shrugged and said to them.. home field advantage, you guys are great and got off after one song. The same meeting a few years later, another town... I work closely with the wife of a harp player in the band, and they asked me to sit in.. Again, massive crowd by my standards.. like 1000+. but they had these benches set up in front and i know these people like to dance.. so they announced me and i made a deal and used my mike to say wait, not gonna play till you move the benches out of a way, someone needs to grab me a beer and I pointed out some women i knew who were dancing by the side and said some of you get out and dance. it took a minute.. people got out and danced, and stayed up.. i played my one song, only playing when asked, and got out.. they were happy with me for sure. they had to beg the crowd to let them stop playing
our band has a way to deal with this as there are lots of low to mid level harp players that like to go to our shows.. we do crosscut saw in A and invite them all up.. i direct, a round of one solos (i don't take one) each then 4 bar rotations on the 12 bar blues. most of the harp players get it and play their bit ok.. the crowd generally goes wild. it even got picked up for a promo video for one of the festivals we did (granted that time we had high caliber players up).
another group (jazz) always said you should sit in.. one break they actually asked me if i had a harp.. i said yeah a Bb.. they obviously did not actually want me to play really making fun of the key, so i made my excuses and sat in the audience
once we had a trumpet player who wanted to sit in.. so we decided to humor him and told him one song, 4 songs in the second set. but he could not wait and sat in the front row playing off time and off key.. i motioned the sound guy with the finger across my neck and the sound guy told him to stop.. he got pissed and left.. thankfully
so maybe if you are at least passable, and know you are, and ask politely, and don't step on the other players.. you can put the band on the spot a little, but make it clear either way, no skin of your nose, so not too much of a spot.. even though i have been on the other side, i think the proper protocol is to wait to be asked to sit in though
BBQ Bob, yeah some of the greats were rude to new players. That's the way it was back then and that is the way they rolled. But that was then and you ain't one of the greats and you have not earned the right to call anybody out. There are lots of players today have better chops than you and have a lot more success than you but I never met one who ran his mouth as much. Give it a rest.
Coyote, you may have been lurking on this site for a while and know exactly what you are doing and who you are talking about. But, with only 5 posts, you may also be coming in cold. I would recommend taking a look at this thread.
I know that when I see BBQ Bob's name on a post I will read it, even if the topic was not one I might otherwise read, because I have learned that there is a lot to learn from BBQ Bob.
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 02, 2015 10:15 PM
I've never asked to sit in. I've been asked, at open mics to sit in after playing, (but I still get nerves improvising. I can do it alright at home, but that's the only thing that gives me stage fright like symptoms). Actually, going to local open mics and jams is a good way to get other musicians to know who you are. If they see you can play and then you pop up at one of their shows there is a good chance they'll come to you and ask you if you've got your harps.
On the foreign aspect of this. I was in Shenzhen China a couple of years ago wandering though a large shopping area at a subway station. I came across a very small bar where they had a PA set up and there was a guitar player and a singer. They were reading out of a Real Book. I ordered something to drink and listened for a while. The performers did not speak English and I did not speak Chinese. At one point between songs, I pulled a harp out of my pocket and just showed it. They invited me up and pointed to the real book,I flipped through and found a song I could play and we performed it together and it came off fairly well. They invited me to play a couple more and asked me to play something unaccompanied, which I did and it went over well. It was cool because the only language we shared was music. I stopped before I wore out my welcome and I think all enjoyed the interchange.
Unless it's a blues jam or an open mic I don't want to go there. Don't like sit ins with my band and won't put another band on the spot by asking. I know we work pretty hard in practice to get tight and nail down a sound. I expect our audience appreciates that. Sit ins jut muck things up for us and them.
Confession time. I inserted myself into a busking duo in a restaurant in Santiago Chile three years ago when my daughter was there as an exchange student and I happened to have the right key harp on me. One guy lent me his hat which I took as some kind of blessing.
You can hear my wife saying "Stop blocking the F$*%ing door" and "this is what you've been missing..."
I don't ask to sit in, but I often "happen" to have my harps when I visit a friendly band. I have been asked to sit in quite a few times by people who saw me busking and almost always say yes.
Here's a situation that happened some years back while I was on the road with Jimmy Rogers. We were gigging at a club in Portsmouth, NH called The Kearsage House and the place was packed to the hilt. Our first set felt like it was almost 1-1/2-3/4 hours long, and it was like we were reliving 1951 and it was ULTRA HEAVY music happening and it was a huge high.
What we normally did was the band would be doing 2-3 songs before we brought Jimmy up to the bandstand. In the audience that night were members of Son Seals' band, who were going to be playing there the following night and so the plan was on the first two numbers, we would be letting them sit in with us and had some fun before we do Hideaway, which was the tune we always brought Jimmy to the stage on.
Unfortunately, the club owner, who was a harp player and a big time coke freak demanded to sit in, and so after I introduced everybody on the first tune of the following set, I stepped off the bandstand and let the owner play with them. The nicest things I could say about his playing was that he absolutely sucked big time, everything from his tone, his chops as well as his time, all HORRIBLE!!!
At one point, I could see Son Seals' bass player at the time, Snapper Mitchum looking at him ready to wrap the bass around his neck and you could damned near see the steam coming out of his ears. Son's keyboard player at the time, King Soloman, it got so bad at one point, he stopped playing all together.
This club owner's playing was so horrible that after he got thru, 75% of the club walked out of the place and some years later, I met one of those people who were in the crowd who had left and he said the club owner made it feel like he was getting ripped off as sort of a semi bait and switch thing and just couldn't take it.
Some of you may not have liked some of my comments, but unfortunately, I'm being brutally honest about it and it's more like something I heard Dr. Phil say on one of his shows where he said, "What you need to hear isn't always going to be what you WANT to hear."
@STME58 -- In China many years ago, the government declared the harmonica as the official people's instrument and so the attitude is markedly different and they actually have quite a few really good to great classical chromatic players and they're much more the norm than diatonic players. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@barbequebob, Thanks for the historical note on the harmonica in China. I was not aware of that. I did note that the diatonic harp was an object of curiosity there. People who I talked to that went to school in China said they had music classes using a 24 hole tremolo, much like the classes many american kids get in 3rd or 4th grade using a recorder. The 24 hole tremolo is mostly what I found in music stores there.
@stme 58 -- Some years ago at Boston Symphony Hall, Cham Ber Huang did a youth concert thing and talked about the harmonica and China and he had mentioned that chromatic harmonicas were introduced in China several decades later than it was in the rest of the world and what they had instead of a chromatic was what Huang Harmonicas offered known as the Cathedral Pack, which were a set of two solo tuned diatonic harmonicas, one tuned to C and another to C# and he gave a demonstration of what was being played and some things worked out easier using those two harps together rather than with a chromatic. Tremolo harps are hugely popular there so that's no surprise to me at all, and so using a normal diatonic is actually quite unusual out that way. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I am with Bob. We got to experience a music scene that young people today have no clue about but what they can read about. There was no hand held phone cameras, internet, to publish the scene. Very few of us got filmed or recorded much or at all because it was a very expensive thing to do. When people I don't know ask to sit in I usually politely say no and if they push it I say - this little gig might not seem like much but it took 20 years of full time and another 20 of part time playing to get. If you want this stage I suggest you start putting in the time to get a gig for yourself............. That often lead to them saying - man you don't know how hard it is to get a gig or band together in this town. I respond- I do know. That is why I had no kids, lived all over the world with no security of health insurance, owning a home, retirement. If they kept on it I just walked away.
The part about most people that ask to sit in being really bad musicians is pretty much all the time true. Today many people that call themselves professional musicians have not come close to that definition. They study videos, play with jam tracks, sit in at open jams, play tiny local gigs that don't pay, and never would think of letting their day job go for the unknown of trying to make it in music. These forums created a new kind of musician that calls themselves pros in playing ability but nill in real gigging experience. That is one reason why most most clubs that supported pro musicians have either folded for refusing to dumb down the music level or done that through jams and letting most anyone play as long as they pay to drink and bring friends that spend. Times always change and we like to look back on the good old days but in reality the music business has always been a tough gig. The difference with today is there is less and less good music to be found and more and more painful music to be heard played by hobbyists that would have never made it out of the basement prior to the late 80s'. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Coyote, although it was a little harsh, I completely agree with you. An audition? Seriously?
There's many real pro touring bands out there that are not afraid of the consequences letting an unknown player sit it. I have only set in with two real pro bands, John Nemeth and Mofo party Band. I accepted because I was confident I wouldn't disapoint. Both times I was asked without either knowing my skill level and without an audition.
I wouldn't ask to sit in with a pro band out of respect, but I wouldn't hesitate asking a local band. If you want to ask, then ask, its yes or no!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 12, 2015 7:48 AM
So, it was still 1968 and Rod started a new band which would be the beginning of Bacon Fat. One night, Richard Innes and Rod went to see who they thought was Big Walter Horton at the Ash Grove in Hollywood. After a 60 mile drive, it was actually Big Walter Smith, as the club owner informed them, who actually was George Harmonica Smith. He was dumping his harmonicas out on the stage from a paper sack. Some guy in the back yelled out, "Can I play some guitar Mr. Smith?" George said "yeah" without even looking up. So, Rod was feeling a little cocky and said, "I'd like to blow some harp." By the time the show started the club had filled up. Rod and Richard were crowded in right to the front of the stage. When George started wailing, Rod looked at Richard and said, "Man, I don't want to sit in!" They both laughed in agreement but when they looked up, here came George with the harp and mic, shoving it towards Rod face like he was saying, "You wanted to blow. Now let's see what you can do!" He gave one of those fierce looks that he was famous for and shoved the harp and mic at him one more time. Rod had no choice but to take them both and start playing.
The crowd started screaming like they do when anybody sits in. George Smith backed up on the stage and looked at Rod like...Where did this guy come from? Pee Wee Crayton was on guitar and he started ribbing him like George was getting cut. Those two were always giving each other a hard time, just like brothers. George then grabbed the cord while Rod played, gently forcing Rod up out of his seat, around the side of the stage, and up the stairs. He finished the song onstage with Pee Wee and the audience yelling for him. Rod handed the mic and harp back to George, shook his hand, and said thank you. George just shook his head, "Ok". Pee Wee kept at George saying, "That young boy cut you, George." So he says, "Ok, let's see what he can do with Big Mama", which was his chromatic harp. He started another shuffle and came to the edge of the stage and tried, once again, to hand Rod the mic and the harp. Rod's really saying no this time but George insists. Rod starts playing but George sees he can barely get around on the big harp, so he takes it back, to Rod's great relief, and tells the audience to give him a hand. George finishes his show. Afterwards, Rod said to George, "Thank you for letting me play." George simply said, "You're welcome.
1847, that's a great story, it shows not every "Pro" is eagatistical.
Bob, there's literally hundreds, probably thousands of non pro harp players that have good time and tone. I don't understand your thinking on the subject, but thankfully all "Pro's" don't share it. I do think the venue should be a factor of whether or not a Pro should let a non pro sit in.
OT: any blues fan needs to check out Rod's first album The Dirty Blues Band with Rod Gingerman Piazza. The talent on the album is incredible, Rod is raw but still great at 19. I'm referring to the album with the brown photo negative style cover. My buddy owns the original album but won't sell it to me.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 12, 2015 11:45 AM
I don't think you have to be a pro, nor do I think it is egotistical to acknowledge that there are a lot of bad players out there (and a lot of good ones but that is not my point here). The last time I was in Las Vegas,about a year ago, I was walking though the Casinos and listing to the bands on various stages. One midweek night, every band I heard had bad timing and bad intonation and yet, there they were on the stages.
I was referring to the first Dirty Blues Album titled Dirty Blues Band from 1967, but there both great!
Your playing a local gig, you let someone up say last set at 12:30-1:00 AM and he plays one song like shit, no one will care at that point, their all drunk. The player ends up looking bad, big deal!
If it's a big important venue, you should only let pro's up anyway, IMO.
STME58, Real good bands don't typically perform midweek on the casino floors. I know alot of players that do casino gigs, some great, some not so great. There usually local bands because no one is paying to see them. The good thing is the casino's pay alot more than a club so every band wants a casino gig.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 12, 2015 10:13 PM
