the other day i was informed that both myself and russ green are playing the riff to messing with the kid completely wrong it is not the first time i have gotten something wrong so it does not come as a total surprise
i have a new phone and once i figure out the best way to up load a video i will play the riff on my guitar, and then on my harmonica and let the powers that be decide if it is correct. i contend that the song is i C using a cross harp in F
the first note is a root note C on the 6 hole blow followed by the flat 7 note of the scale 5 draw then the 5 note of the scale 4 draw then the 4 th note 4 blow tonic flat 7 5th 4th.... these are the first 4 notes
several others here contend that the riff starts on the 2nd note of the scale 6 draw and ends on the root. these are people that have forgotten more than i will ever know about music and i hold them in the highest of regard.
what is bothering me most is that the notes they say are correct fit perfect over the C7 chord.... they just do not sound like messing with the kid if i have this wrong i will be the first to admit i have been playing this incorrectly for the longest time
didjcripey this is the other post i was referring too.
I'm pretty sure that it was just a mistake in posting the tab: "6D 5B 4D 4B 3Half 3full 2D 2half 2D" . The first D should have been a B. The rest of it is correct. In fairness, I hardly ever write more than five notes of tab without getting something wrong. Probably why I don't write much tab!
Russ Green was playing the lick wrong but it doesn't bother me enough to tab out his mistakes. Other than that, I thought he was a good player.
There are a couple of other mistakes in that tab as well.
The second note is 5 draw, not 5 blow, and the second to last note is 2 draw whole step bend, not 2 draw half step bend.
It's tonic,flat seventh, fifth, fourth, flat third, second, tonic (an octave lower than the first note, flat seventh (an octave below the second note), tonic.
BTW, I don't know whether that's what Russ Green was playing but he did sound out of tune with the guitar to me.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 22, 2015 11:29 AM
Damn! I play it better than I tab it.Yes 5D I struggled with whether I was playing a half or whole step on the 2 hole. I'm still not sure which I'm doing,but I'll take your word for it.
time-That was bugging me so I went to the woodshed and yes,I do indeed play the whole step 2. I play it much better than I tab it! I won't get involved in those locked topic discussions but I will not tolerate misinformation on the harp! Sorry for the misinformaton. One more time(I better get this right): 6B 5D 4D 4B 3Half 3Whole 2D 2Whole 2D
Don't worry about it, Tuckster. Tabbing is a rough roadmap... No-one should just follow the tab without using their ears. It's a simple descending minor pentatonic scale. A major seventh, as draw two half step bend would have been, would prolly sound weird(?). I now see that I was too quick to agree with timeistight. I play the scale descending to the fifth, draw one and then jump up to the tonic. 6B,5D,4D,4B,3D',2D,2D",1D, 2D
Edited twice for typos including swapping a B for a D. :) ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jun 22, 2015 1:52 PM
...and now when I listened to it thrice I do think I have been playing it wrong! It sounds like the descent timeistight tabbed. I'll be damned, not a "simple descending minor pentatonic scale" after all... Mea culpa est! ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
once again mr time is tight you step up and saved the day i would like to extend a genuine heartfelt thank you it is good to hear from you, it is always good to hear from you if you can possibly do like most of us here and just ignore some of the extraneous white noise that is in the back ground, there is a wealth of really cool people here that enjoy sharing music.
this was driving me bonkers, and trust me "its a short drive" i was going to ask tuckster if he meant 6 blow
but when the supreme court "justice eisenberg" ruled in favor of 6 draw to the 5 blow i was devastated, because as everyone knows the supreme court cannot be over ruled, it is the final say.
Your biggest mistake is playing it in 2Nd position- Juniors best versions are played in third position- Try a Bb in third and youll hear what I am talking about-
"Juniors best versions are played in third position-"
Really? The (I think, original)'66 version on Vanguard where he dives into the solo with those sixteenth? notes and then backs off to those pleading, crying sounds is just one of the best harp solos of all time. That one is definitely 2nd position. I'd love to hear a version of Junior in 3rd though. I don't think I've ever heard a version with him playing the signature lick that we're all obsessed with.
Pistolcat, 6B,5D,4D,4B,3D',2D,2D",1D, 2D. I'm sticking with this version as it sounds close enough for me. I've played it many times and this is as close as I want to get. After all, it's me playing and not Junior Wells.
the riff in 3rd is all 'blow draw', very simple and the b3 is tuned in. i've always played it in 2nd on an F harp myself, and ive attempted to mimic the solo Bilzharp mentioned...i think the recording from 'chicago the blues today', not the first by any means, but maybe the best-known...timing is such a big part of the deal with JW..."this is not western music" someone told me once. Thanks tmf714, i am gonna give that a crack in 3rd. i need a 3rd position project
I've played this song on bass with a couple bands over the last few years. On harmonica in 2nd position its...
6 -5 -4 4 -3' -2 -2" -2' -2
Lays out easily on guitar or bass, just a walk down the blues scale then a little chromatic run from the flat 7 up to the root. The little chromatic run on harp is not so easy to get clean in 2nd position.
But lays out easily in 3rd position. Key of C, Bb harp.
I would have said the last 4 notes were 2nd, tonic, b7, tonic, or, in 2nd pos, 3" 2 2" 2 I've seen it tabbed for guitar with those notes also. Now I just don't know and I'll have to give a careful earing
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jun 23, 2015 12:38 AM
This is a unison riff, played by the bass and guitar and sometimes sax. If you want to play along, you need to play what they're playing even if you think they're wrong. If they're " wrong" and you're "right" you'll be the one who sounds bad.
Which is maybe why Junior Wells never played even a little part of the riff!
iceman..... you sure thru me for a loop, i was looking for a fastball and you toss me a curveball, i was not expecting that lol when you certified that the first note was a 6 inhale and then the next note is a 5 exhale i was, frankly a bit stunned. to me it is of utmost importance to get a riff correct once i learn something incorrectly is extremely difficult if not impossible to fix the issue. not that i do not get riffs wrong, we all do. some of us more than others .
it was your comment...... I enjoy players who pay attention to detail. that tripped me up, it might be a good idea if you mention that someone is playing the wrong notes to actually post the correct notes, not something that is even further out and even more inaccurate.
Timeistight is right, its a unison riff. In the end it doesn't matter what was played on the original, as long as the bass and guitar (and harp) are playing the same thing.
One thing I discovered for me, may not apply to you guys, is that I have a much harder time picking out notes on the harmonica than on bass or guitar. Maybe its harmonica intonation, maybe its the overtones, not sure. But I do much better picking stuff out with a bass. I know all my notes on the harp and bass by scale degree rather so I can transpose between the two quickly.
In any case, I play along with the recording on bass and it matches. And I play with other musicians and they play it this way. But I've been wrong many times before!
One thing I learned over the years was playing along with a recording is not always a great idea. Sometimes I play something wrong and it harmonizes and I can't tell its wrong. I've learned to turn off the recording and play solo and sometimes I can then figure out I'm doing it wrong.
There was perhaps a misunderstanding when someone in the other post/thread ("Russ Green") typo'd "6D" instead of "6B" as the first note in the riff. It was very obviously a typo and practically not worth pursuing—Iceman may have missed it when he contributed a post. Anyone who picks up the harp and plays 6 draw along with the song will know that this was a typo. This was hardly in dispute so I think it was just glossed over. The more interesting aspect is the more nuanced part of the riff, where there are some tricky bends on hole 3 (where your intonation needs to be good) and where you descend there, which Russ Green gets wrong and —no disrespect to Russ Green as he is a much better harp player than most—a lot of experienced harp players get wrong too, and are never in step with the band. One solution as mentioned is to play the riff in 3rd position where I believe no bends are required if you start on draw 8. These are the important "details" worth discussing. Simple riff but so many ways to f' it up!
I always heard the penultimate note as a whole step draw bend, but since I found out it's a blow note, I hear it in my head as a draw bend from 6 to 1--like Gimmie Shelter--so that would make the tonic draw 3.
Is this 4th position?
It requires an overblow on 5, but other than that, it's pretty easy--and the note you have to OB is separated from the other notes, giving you time to set it up.
what i consider important is this i hear that line played that way all the time `
we have players here of all experience levels from someone who may of just bought a harmonica yesterday to top notch players such as iceman ............ and all points in between. so how would someone starting out know it is a simple typographical error? mr ice uses a simple system inhale exhale that most likely eliminates those errors. it is an excellent idea. the issue i have is.... i hear players all the time play that riff just that way. harmonica players a a very sensitive bunch how do you tell someone they are playing the wrong notes? you cant it will hurt their feelings. so we just smile and politely clap. russ green is one heck of a player, and we have no trouble pointing out he made the tiniest mistake and i mean tiny. but someone who is totally f$%#^%$ up we say nothing.
