nick cavill
4 posts
Jun 12, 2015
6:57 AM
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A (very good) harp teacher suggested I switch from Lee Oskars to Hohner Crossovers. I did, and enjoyed them especially the nice fat tone and clean easy bends. BUT then they started breaking. FOUR TIMES now I have broken the same reed: 4 draw. I now have three broken replacement plates and one broken harp. In each case the 4 draw quite suddenly starts to go flat and then two or three notes later it is either totally flat or not sounding at all.
the teacher said I am drawing too hard and/or playing it cold. We do rehearse in a cold room but for the last one I very very carefully warmed up the harp every time. I have also been trying to draw more softly. But still it died after 5 months and only playing every other day for 20 mins and rehearsing/gigging once a week. so hardly heavy use...
But is it all me, or is there something wrong with the harp make? If I bought say a toaster and it broke in the same place four times they would call it a manufacturing fault.
Oh these are all D harps. the others have not broken (yet) but I have not played them so much
So...
- is it me? if so what can I do?
- can I send them back to Hohner? if so, How?
- any ideas for different harps to try?
Thanks guys
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STME58
1326 posts
Jun 12, 2015
7:56 AM
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I have had the same problem with 4 and 5 draw reeds. As I learn to use less breath force my harps are going much longer between failures. I think it is common when our technique is not quite right, we tend to try to force the bend, and end up over-stressing the reed. Bending is a resonance thing, not a force thing.
With bad technique, I have broken reeds in just a few hours of playing a harp. I have broken many different brands, including crossovers. It is part of the learning curve of this instrument.
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barbequebob
2946 posts
Jun 12, 2015
8:27 AM
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STME58 has it EXACTLY RIGHT on the nose!!!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Bilzharp
69 posts
Jun 12, 2015
8:49 AM
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Don't toss those broken harps. There are plenty of guys that can replace that reed for you for much less than the cost of a new harp.
Yep, playing too hard. After 40+ years, I still blow reeds occasionally and the one I blow most often is the #4 draw on a D harp. My theory is that, as the root of the 5 chord in 2nd position, it's often where I land at the climax of a solo (when I'm most likely to be playing too hard) and it begs to be bent up to and down from. It's also the tonic in 3rd position so that reed gets a pretty good work out from me, especially since we play lot of songs in A and E. That doesn't explain why I don't blow the 4 draw on my A harp as often though. Maybe one of the forum's repair guys will weigh in.
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isaacullah
3035 posts
Jun 12, 2015
8:55 AM
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Stme58 is correct. As for you only break those reeds on a D harp, it could very well be that the natural resonance if your embouchure (iral cavity and wind pipe) operates at a frequency that matches and amplifies that of those specific Reed pitches. Couple that with the fact that they are "wailing notes" that get played frequently and hard, and you have a recipe for frequent Reed breakage. The good news is that you can learn to overcome this with techinque. There was a period where I busted a lot of 4 draw reeds on A harps. But since learning to be mindful of my breath force and resonance (by adjusting the size of my oral chamber), haven't broken a single Reed. That's been probably 4 of 5 years now....
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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Kingley
3886 posts
Jun 12, 2015
9:09 AM
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Yeah you're using too much breath force (drawing too hard) and bending way past the floor of the bend I expect too. You need to learn to play more softly. You don't really need to use any more air pressure playing harmonica than you do in normal conversation and often considerably less. Also use a tuner or an online tuner such as the one at seventh string if you don't have one. As that will help you to realise where the bends are and also to play them in tune. All those things combined will help your harmonicas last a lot longer.
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zackattack
37 posts
Jun 12, 2015
10:27 AM
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Maybe you should try a Seydel Session Steel. My SS in D gets played hard and often but has not failed me yet.
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SuperBee
2657 posts
Jun 12, 2015
2:35 PM
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I repair more 4 and 5 draw reeds than any other. 5 draw probably more than 4, not quite sure. But more D harps than any other too.
In hohners, all the marine bands, sp20 and GM, the D and higher keys are built on a different template than harps from C down. The 4 and 5 draw reeds in a D are shorter and narrower than in C, Bb, A. The D is also probably the most commonly played harp of the higher keys. And that 4/5 draw warble with bending.
See what Joe Spiers has to say about bending. Joe speculates that the 4 draw bend is the most commonly over played reed...bent too flat and loud. I've seen many of these reeds, sometimes they are already clearly fractured but often I can see the kink where the reed has moved beyond its ability to maintain it's shape. I replace very few 2 and 3 draw reeds, which are used a lot and bent a lot, but usually not as dramatically as the 4.
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SuperBee
2658 posts
Jun 12, 2015
2:38 PM
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Oh, I just repaired a 4 draw in a SS D this week too. The seydel harps are all the same reed sizes in every key. I don't really know if that has any bearing though. I think it's more to do with 'born in chicago'
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SuperBee
2660 posts
Jun 12, 2015
5:50 PM
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but, for another angle on it...i have 13 harps on my bench right now which need 7 blow replaced. they are all the same key, and its all down to one song, which the owner plays in 4th position and obviously hits that note real hard. same guy sent me a half dozen C harps with 4 draw bad. he very clearly tracks the issue to particular songs in his act because he is not a harp player per se, just uses the harp in a couple of parts of his show
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arzajac
1649 posts
Jun 13, 2015
5:57 AM
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- is it me? if so what can I do?
If it was just one harp, maybe. But since you have been having this problem with several harps, it's most likely technique.
You played (mostly?) Lee Oskar harps which are somewhat leaky. Players tend to develop the bad habit of using a lot of breath simply because those harps demand it.
I suggest you do some exercises which involve mostly your ears - forget about worrying about your technique so much for now. Use your ears to bend to the perfect pitch. Listen very carefully to the pitch you are creating and try to match it up with another audio source (your band, a jam track, a keyboard). When you are bang-on, you can feel it.
Try to land on the perfect pitch, don't settle for close enough. And consequently, don't overshoot. Start slowly and work up to playing all your fast runs with those draw bends on pitch.
As you do this, you may find you can focus your tone without having to hammer away with hard breath, too.
I hope that helps.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
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HarmonicaMick
312 posts
Jun 13, 2015
11:06 AM
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I also agree with what STME58 said, but would add that if you're blowing out reeds that frequently then you're most likely not drawing the air from your diaphragm.
I think it's easier to explain the difference on a blow reed, so that's what I'll do.
Take any old harp and play the 2 blow. If you can feel a fair bit of resistance then your are - quite literally - blowing.
Now do the same thing, but make sure that the air is coming from your diaphragm - your stomach should be the main thing moving, not your chest. You should feel little or no resistance against the reed, and the note will be louder.
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LSB
151 posts
Jun 13, 2015
11:23 AM
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Hey Nick, I see from another post that you play sax, so here's the thing: The difference between the required breath pressure to play sax, and proper breath pressure to play a harmonica, is the difference between a scream and a whisper. Really. You probably feel like you already barely blow into the harp, but you need to recalibrate a bit. I know from experience.....
Also, again as others have mentioned, make certain you are bending with control, and not just slamming the bent notes as far as they will go down.
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The Iceman
2510 posts
Jun 13, 2015
1:35 PM
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It's not the breath force, but bending through the floor (as was mentioned above).
There is a point where that reed will not bend any further in tone. You must become sensitive to where that is - there is actually a feel of not being able to go any further.
It's a matter of sensitizing yourself to feel this.
Once you've got it, try to bend down to about 1 foot above the floor, leaving a little wiggle room (maybe less than 1/4 tone) below. Now you have a place to add true vibrato.
Your problem is not enough sensitivity and even though that reed won't bend any lower, you are continuing to "press down on it" with your bending technique.
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The Iceman
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STME58
1328 posts
Jun 13, 2015
10:41 PM
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The "bending though the floor" metaphor, while quite useful in changing behavior in a manner that will improve your playing and reduce reed breaking, bothers me from a physics point of view.
Here is my hypothesis. A pair of reeds in a chamber has a limited range it will bend thorough. Bending is largely due to changing the volume of the oral cavity to change the system resonance. (article) Within the limits the pitch is easily adjusted. When you hit the limit, pitch change no longer occurs as you change the volume of the oral cavity and the natural response is to draw harder. I suspect that there is no physical phenomenon of "going through the floor" that causes breakage, but the extra breath force, subconsciously applied when the bending stops, does create forces that break reeds.
I have presented here before an analysis, based on measurements of a reed, that indicated the reed will fail in about 6 hours of sounding at a pressure just over 1/2 PSI. Slight increases in pressure will result in drastic reduction of life.
If any one knows of any studies done on this I would love to get a reference to them.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 13, 2015 11:29 PM
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eebadeeb
71 posts
Jun 14, 2015
3:39 AM
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I haven't broken a reed since I learned to gap for better response. It may be that my technique evolved at the same time, but I believe the better response allows gentler breath force.
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Rustys26
44 posts
Jun 14, 2015
3:40 AM
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I have had some harps wear out from extensive playing...but I've never "broken" a reed (does this mean, the hole doesn't play as on some cheap or toy harmonicas?). Some harps, mostly in obscure keys, have lasted 7+ years. Am I alone in having never broken a reed? Now I feel like im doing something wrong for having NOT broken a reed...haha.
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SuperBee
2668 posts
Jun 14, 2015
4:28 AM
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depends Rus. how do you decide a harp is worn out?
ive never worn one out. ive only broken them and then i repair them and off we go
broken reed goes flat. sometimes it actually breaks off but usually just goes flat. sometimes it loses its spring and stays in the slot just not making any sound.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jun 14, 2015 4:30 AM
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dougharps
938 posts
Jun 14, 2015
8:27 AM
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I had this issue a lot during earlier years of playing, and still occasionally have the problem these days. My view is that it is a combination of too much breath force when bending, and bending too far. It usually happens when I get carried away, often when monitoring is poor or when I am playing acoustically over loud guitars. I think that alcohol may be a factor in over doing it...
That all being said, the construction of the Crossover seems more susceptible to me to having reeds fail (usually 4 or 5 draw) from abuse than other harps. Maybe it is tolerances, maybe reed construction, I don't know.
AND overall, it is harps of many brands specifically in the key of D in which I have wrecked reeds, even to this day, though more rare now. Probably part of this is that A is one of the oft played keys. C and A diatonics are also often played, but seem hardier. Perhaps it is an issue of slot length? Crossovers are built pretty tight. D and Db are the lowest pitch short slot reedplates. I don't really know, but D harps and specifically Crossover D harps don't seem to last as long.
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Doug S.
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The Iceman
2514 posts
Jun 14, 2015
9:08 AM
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Good point, dougharps.
The harmonica can not kick out dB sound past its own little limitation. Going head to head with acoustic guitars played loud is a losing battle. However, so many feel that just using more force will overcome the issue. Wrong.
Always let your equipment do the heavy lifting. Always breathe the harmonica.
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The Iceman
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Littoral
1259 posts
Jun 14, 2015
1:27 PM
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THIS:
As Doug suggested: "Perhaps it is an issue of slot length? ... D and Db are the lowest pitch short slot reedplates."
YES.
I would have thought the crew weighing in on this would have brought this up sooner given there's no shortage of pro knowledge here. I didn't know either but I asked Dennis Gruenling the same question (D harp) at a lesson a few weeks ago and he said it was because D was the lowest key of the short slot reeds.
I haven't had the problem for years (technique) but I used to on D's A LOT.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jun 14, 2015 1:27 PM
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SuperBee
2670 posts
Jun 14, 2015
2:50 PM
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I did mention the smaller reed in the hohner harp as possibly a factor. But, I really don't know if it's more than coincidence. Seydel D harps are same reed size as every other seydel key. What's the experience with seydel? Are d harps also most commonly broken?
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Littoral
1260 posts
Jun 14, 2015
3:05 PM
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Superbee, 'I did mention the smaller reed in the hohner harp as possibly a factor."
True, I see that now.
As far as I'm concerned that answers it.
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dougharps
939 posts
Jun 14, 2015
3:50 PM
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My Seydel Session Steel and 1847 in D have each so far not had any problem like this. My D Manji had some issues on the 5 draw, but Gary Lehman
(CORRECTION: GARY LEHMANN, with two "n"s)
got it working again at SPAH, and so far, so good.
I mainly had this problem with Marine Bands, early non MS Blues Harps, and Special 20s. In the 90s I played LOs for a while, and the D was the weakest. I started switching back to Hohners in the early 2000s, and my D SP20s were the weakest. My technique has since improved and I stopped having this issue very often, though I remain a fairly hard player.
Last year I was surprised to cause flat 4 draws in two different Crossovers (I replaced a reed in one and put another key of plates on the other). This caused me to try out Seydels and Manjis for D. I like the response of the D Crossover, but I just don't trust myself to always exercise proper restraint when playing, so I am looking for a more durable harp. Crossovers and replacement reed plates are pricey.
As far as Seydels, I like the Session Steel harps best, again because of the cost of 1847s and replacement plates being high and SSs are more reasonable. The Manji seems to hold up well, though the 2 and 3 draws seem more difficult to manage for some reason, and I did have that one problem with the 5 draw.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 14, 2015 7:47 PM
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Rustys26
45 posts
Jun 14, 2015
5:11 PM
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Superbee, I decide a harp is worn out when a note goes flat or i can't bend down to all the possible spots on a given draw hole. Never physically broken a reed though.
Then again, I played drums for a decade and only broke a handful of sticks...maybe I'm just a soft player
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Gnarly
1381 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:26 PM
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In my experience, vocal resonance gone wrong, played at a high volume, kills most of the usual suspects--4 and 5 draw, 7 and 9 blow.
Special circumstances when there is no real bend since the blow and draw reeds are a half step apart (5 draw, 7 blow).
4 gets busted because we play it more than the others -- can I get an amen?
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 14, 2015 7:29 PM
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Gnarly
1382 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:27 PM
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Oh and Doug, you can't spell Gnarly Heman without two n's . . .
It's Lehmann. . .
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dougharps
940 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:48 PM
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Gary, please excuse my anagrammatical error, which I corrected in my post above.
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Doug S.
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Gnarly
1383 posts
Jun 14, 2015
10:16 PM
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Much obliged--
I can't remember when I broke a reed last, that's a nice feeling.
But Nick, a busted reed is no big deal, lots of folks will replace that for you and you could even learn to do it yourself--short of that, replacement reed plates are probably available for the Crossover.
I wouldn't send it back to Hohner to repair unless it was under warranty. Maybe you should try another model harmonica to see if it happens on that one too.
I represent Suzuki, as I am the repair guy in the US for that Japanese company, we have a one year warranty. Try a Manji in D and see how long it lastS you--and when you blow it out, call the toll free number (800-854-1594) and we will replace it.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 16, 2015 8:21 AM
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barbequebob
2947 posts
Jun 15, 2015
12:13 PM
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The newer Hohners have a much tighter reed slot tolerance than they once did for years, and when harps have tighter slot tolerances along with much flatter combs, the need to play with a lot of breath force is gonna always wind up being absolutely dumb as the day is long.
The 4 draw is the number one blown out reed among just about every diatonic harp, followed by 9 blow and 5 draw, and surprisingly, 4 blow on harps pitched from D and higher. 4 draw, when played in 2nd position, is the 5th of the scale and the single most powerful note of the scale and is no surprise that many players often play that note the hardest of all.
For many years, one of the very first things customizers usually do with harps is tighten the slot tolerances and the tighter the tolerance, the LOWER the amount of breath force needed to do ANYTHING and since many newer harps have much tigter tolearnces, using a lot of breath force is definitely not smart. Many players who teach themselves often have a much harder breath force when playing draw notes in holes 1-6 than the blow notes in those holes and have a harder breath force when playing the blow notes in holes 6-10 and a much softer breath force when playing the draw notes in those holes respectively.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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GMaj7
705 posts
Jun 15, 2015
5:31 PM
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I've had really good luck with reed polishing, essentially starting with a reed 1/2 -1 whole step what is called for and polishing it into tune.
Hardly scientific and understandably up for debate, but I repair/replace about 500 reeds a year and have been for the last 3 or so. As a matter of practice, I mark each one and keep customer notes. Very very few have come back.
I still advocate what the greats in this thread argue, but Seydel has recognized this as a problem and taken steps to fix it.
There is quite a lot more about the topic on my web site
and in the article linked below:
http://1623customharmonicas.com/2014/12/11/in-tune-with-the-player-seydel-reed-repair-options/
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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STME58
1330 posts
Jun 15, 2015
8:16 PM
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Greg, i disagree with your statement that polishing reeds is "hardly scientific".
It is well known in materials science that a smooth surface will go more cycles before fatigue failure occurs. Little irregularities in the surface provide starting points for microscopic cracks to occur. reference Depending on how you polish the surface, you can put the surface of the material in tension and further increase resistance to fatigue. Shot peening is a process of creating an even surface, in tension, and it is commonly done to high performance automotive connecting rods to increase fatigue resistance.
If you could cold roll reeds instead of machine them, you would really have a long lasting reed. If one were to put some effort into it I expect you could convert one of those souvenir penny smashing machines into a reed maker.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 15, 2015 9:00 PM
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nick cavill
5 posts
Jun 16, 2015
5:40 AM
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Well once again I have to say YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING thanks so much for the advice. I know you like posting and discussing with each other and all that but to offer this free advice to a harp newbie is so helpful.
The various posts got me thinking: confession time
- yes I always hit the 4 draw hard - the main tune I use it for in my covers band is a blues in A and I guess always pounce on that flat 5th
- yes I am only just beginning to play properly so am a sucker for the bends and probably over-use them
- yes as I play saxophone too maybe I am using saxophone air pressure
- now thinking even more (and the eagle eyed among you may noticed other posts from me complaining about pedals and not being heard) I am always battling with the volume of the band so probably over blow (draw) to be heard
SO I am definitely going to treat that harp with more love in the future. Now I have solved my volume problem (thanks to other forum posters suggesting I get a lone wolf pedal) I can play more softly. and I am going to practise accurate bends rather than BIG BENDS. in the meantime I have found a UK repair man who is fixing single reeds for a fraction of the cost of a new reedplate. and I have also ordered a SS harp in D just in case! I am beginning to learn that it is difficult to have too many harps
so.... thanks again - I continue on my mission
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jawbone
572 posts
Jun 16, 2015
6:15 AM
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Waaaay back when I was still playing I always wondered why when I was woodshedding acoustically at home I would never lock up a reed but as soon as I played out, amped with my band it would happen all the time - yep - volume and adrenalin !!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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GMaj7
708 posts
Jun 16, 2015
7:30 AM
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STME58
I like your explanations.
That makes a lot of sense.
Good info to know.
I think I have the data to support the contention it works and your explanation backs it up.
To be fair, there are some great and knowledgeable techs who call it "Chicken Soup"
I'm gonna steel some of your stuff there.. !
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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dougharps
942 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:31 AM
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I want to take a moment to thank barbecuebob for his ongoing posts about breath control. At times his advice/directions may have seemed a bit harsh, but he is right on target.
I was initially self taught and without his posts might never have rethought my approach and might have continued thoughtlessly blowing out reeds and blaming the harps. Comments by The Iceman about bending through the floor as well as instruction from different instructors at different workshops have helped me continue to address this issue.
I began playing in the '60s but never went to a workshop until SPAH 2008. I had previously played clarinet, which may have affected my breath force. During this time I had found only one book, Tony Glover's, which contained a mix of good and questionable information. Much, much later I found out about Harp-L, and then other internet forums. I learned about SPAH.
A few years back Ronnie Shellist noted at a SPAH tone workshop that when I was playing acoustically I played right below the limit of losing tone from using too much force. This is not necessarily bad, but if you are usually playing close to the limit it is easy to cross over if you lose focus.
However, deciding to play with less breath force is easier said than done when you have developed bad habits over decades. In the '90s LOs held up for me better than Hohners, probably because of being somewhat leaky, as noted by arzajac above.
I still believe in being heard when playing acoustically, so learning to project at an audible level in acoustic situations while not blowing/drawing too hard has been the ongoing challenge for me. An example would be jams at SPAH in which some good players are almost inaudible to anyone not near them due to soft playing and cupping. Why play if you cannot be heard? So learning to use resonance and my air column to project was the way to achieve increased volume without blowing and drawing too hard. Learning to do some tongue blocking for octaves and split intervals helped open up my throat and oral cavity.
I am willing to lose a reed every year or two due to getting carried away, but not every month or two in regular playing. As jawbone noted, in practice you tend to not overdo it. It is in the heat of the moment, at jams or situations without good monitoring that we overdo it. So learning to use less force in playing out is really important.
Despite knowing and understanding the need for moderation of breath force, when trying to be heard in acoustic settings against multiple stringed instruments, or playing in amplified situations with poor monitoring or a weak amp, I still sometimes use too much force. As I noted above, even moderate use of alcohol can affect self regulation in these situations.
The MAIN change that has helped me learn to usually use less force when playing is having learned to overblow. I usually just use the 6 overblow (flatted 3rd, Bb when playing 2nd position key of G on a C harp). When you adjust reed gaps to facilitate OB technique (with me, the 4, 5, and 6 blow), the reeds will choke if you use too much force when playing. This offers immediate feedback when you blow or draw too hard. You HAVE TO learn to use less breath force.
My advice if you are a hard player and want to learn to use less force (and have your harps last longer) is to set the gaps NARROWER, so you HAVE to use less force to play. Don't set them wider because you are a hard player, set them narrower to help yourself learn to use less force.
I continue to work on this, and I now try to avoid situations where I may not be able to hear myself when playing. I sometimes choose to use Delta Frosts (which are pretty durable) or even my remaining Lee Oskars if I choose to play in questionable loud situations or cold weather situations.
I just wanted to thank those who have encouraged us to keep working on less forceful breath and using resonance for volume techniques.
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Edit for spelling
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 16, 2015 9:08 AM
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