|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Do you need to know Scales?
Do you need to know Scales?
Page:
1
2
STME58
1327 posts
Jun 12, 2015
2:20 PM
|
Thanks for the encouraging comments Iceman. I am with you on the long tones. It is something brass players are encouraged to do. The harmonica has a broader range of timber than brass so I think that makes long tones even more important on harp.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 12, 2015 2:21 PM
|
Thievin' Heathen
541 posts
Jun 12, 2015
4:13 PM
|
I will preface this with "I don't practice scales near enough", but, I can't think of anything else to practice that offers anywhere near the same benefits.
Theory, ear training, note location, you can use them for breathing and tone development and you can even throw in a metronome to work on time.
I'm sold.
|
yonderwall
97 posts
Jun 12, 2015
8:28 PM
|
@barbequebob, when you suggest that we learn where all of the notes are in every key, do you mean that literally (ex: that we simply identify a 6-hole blow on an Eb harp as a Bb), or rather that we know relative scale degrees in different positions (ex: the 6-hole blow on any harp is going to be the 5th degree of the (major) scale in first position, but the 2nd of the scale in second position, and the 4th of the scale in third position, etc.)?
I can kind of get my head around where the various scale degrees are, but I don't know that I'll ever be able to memorize the notes by name on all different harp keys. Or maybe that does come in time? (it just seems daunting to me at the moment). Man, this is a crazy hard instrument to get your head around.
Last Edited by yonderwall on Jun 12, 2015 8:44 PM
|
Thievin' Heathen
543 posts
Jun 12, 2015
8:53 PM
|
If I might take a stab at that, Yonder...,
Every note in every hole on every harp in every key the scale degree for the key your playing in and everything else. I know that is where I want to be. The questions, how much work will I put into it and how long will it take. It's too easy to noodle along and have a great time.
I think the only possible shortcut might be multi-instrumentalism. The sax and keyboard players seem to have a better grasp on it than most of the rest of us.
|
barbequebob
2948 posts
Jun 15, 2015
12:26 PM
|
@yonderwall -- If you're willing to put the work into it, it will all come in time and when broken down, scales are patterns and when one thinks that way, by remembering the pattern, everything else becomes easier to remember and it all falls into place. If you were to play any other instrument, they're all the very same things you need to know and Thievin' Heathen says it pretty much in a nutshell. Keyboard players have the advantage that there is such a strong visual impact that you can clearly see it, followed by guitar players. Many harp players often get themselves easily intimidated by horn players, even the ones that are not exactly among the very finest because to play it, you HAVE to know this stuff and so even the crappiest of horn players are far more often much more musically together than the average harp player tends to be.
Going off from scales to positions, once you not only remember the patterns, you then can take it further by listening to tonal and note patterns of note only the different positions, but also to the timbres of the different key harps enough to figure out the position being used when you're listening to a recording of an other harp player because you will also be training your ears to be a lot more observant about things.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
timeistight
1789 posts
Jun 15, 2015
2:29 PM
|
I actually tried for a couple of years to memorize all twelve Richter layouts. It didn't work. I could *tell* you any note after a second or two of thought, but I don't *know* them all as I'm playing. Neither am I able to read in all keys on all keys of harp; it's just to many variables for me to track.
What I've come around to instead is the transposition approach: I know the C harp cold, including all the bends and overblows, and what key each position is. All other harp keys, I transpose. In other words, if I'm playing in fifth position, for example, I'm thinking of the key of E, no matter what harp I'm playing.
That's the approach David Barrett teaches. It's also the approach Sandy Weltman uses.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 15, 2015 2:30 PM
|
yonderwall
98 posts
Jun 15, 2015
7:02 PM
|
Thank you all very much for your comments and suggestions. To Heathen's point: yes, it is all too easy to noodle along and have a great time :) but I can tell that it is time for me to start buckling down on my scales and positions. I did play trumpet for many years (and guitar for a few), so I do have a reasonable understanding of (basic) scales and (three to five note) chords -- but I have to tell you that, in my opinion, learning where the notes are on trumpet or a guitar is much easier than learning where the notes are on all keys of harmonica. Playing an E major scale on the C harmonica involves very different in/out, bending (overblowing!) and hole patterns than the same E scale on a D harp.
Playing an E scale on a trumpet is easy, and never changes :)
To Bob's point, however, I did suspect (and am now happy to receive professional verification!) that things will just slowly congeal with more experience, and that the patterns will sink in over time (it was only recently that I even realized that in/out breath patterns mostly repeat over the various harp octaves -- Doh!) As well, I do need to pay more attention to ear training for tonal qualities of modes and timbres of the different harps. There's just so much to the whole thing that I now believe that (focused) practice and lots (and lots) of time are the only way to really get there.
@timeistight, I too currently think of all notes in terms of a C harp. I've recently been trying to migrate to thinking in terms of scale degrees instead of actual notes (it's hard… I have this little voice in my head that keeps whispering C-harp-note names as I'm trying to think of note numbers!). I really don't know if this approach is ultimately any better, though. I just suspect that I can mentally lookup a given scale degree for a given scale faster than I can transpose from C to a given key.
|
STME58
1331 posts
Jun 15, 2015
8:31 PM
|
Horns (at least early ones, before valves were invented) and harmonicas have more in common than you might realize. A horn player had one horn and a bag full of crooks. By changing the crook (basically tuning slides of different lengths), the key of the horn was changed. The horn was essentially diatonic. Sound familiar?
The approach timeistight described, is basically how music for horns was written. The horn part was always written in C. If the composer wanted the music in a different key, a notation would be made to put that crook in. This way the horn player would use the same patterns and the transposition is taken care of by the crook.
Yonderwall, try playing that E scale on a C,D,Eb,G or A trumpet instead of a Bb and you are right back in the harmonica world. I obtained an Eb alto trombone (standard trombone is in Bb) and I am going through the process of understanding this.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 15, 2015 8:40 PM
|
yonderwall
99 posts
Jun 16, 2015
6:07 AM
|
@STME58, your point about alternate-key trumpets (and the great history lesson :) is obviously well taken, but really, in practice, swapping around horns is infinitely less common than what we are required to do in the harmonica world (and even then it's almost always for classical pieces -- and even then one would rarely use more than one other key trumpet). Though other key instruments certainly exist (and do get used), in all fairness, I think it is safe for me to stand by my premise that most of these "much more musically competent" sax and trumpet people we keep hearing about are using just one instrument for most everything they play.
Good luck with the alto trombone, it sounds like a fun (and educational) challenge; I'm sure that the transpositional skills you develop/refine will map nicely back to harmonica as well!
|
STME58
1333 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:19 AM
|
I would content that those "much more musically competent" sax and trumpet people we keep hearing about, are more competent because of their effort, not their instrument. The harmonica is very underrated as a teaching tool. I think it helps you to understand the relationship between keys and modes better than a chromatic instrument. Changing between alternate keyed diatonic instruments could help with this but who is going to have a bevy of trumpets at $2k-$3k per instrument! Not only that but modern chromatic instruments have become so good that there is less need for the alternate keys.
Because of the accessibility of the harmonica, both in cost and portability, you are much more likely to run into harmonica hacks. (When was the last time you saw someone whip out a tuba at a party and play it badly?) I would contend that the top level harp players have every bit of the knowledge that other top level instrumentalists have. Every instrument does facilitate learning slightly different things about music though.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 16, 2015 8:34 AM
|
1847
2450 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:25 AM
|
question for littoral or winslow or iceman
the chart above shows the notes on a c harp
the bottom reed plate 5 1 3 5 7 2 3 5 7 2
that is how i memorized it
my question is this..... 6 hole draw and 10 hole draw
what makes that a 2 nd as opposed to a 9 th
would the 6 hole be considered a 2 nd and the 10 hole a 9 th?
not that it matters it is still the same note
it just kinda bothers me.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 16, 2015 8:26 AM
|
Michael Rubin
1046 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:25 AM
|
I think as if I am on a C harp, but more often I think in terms of scale degrees for whatever position I am in. I know my 12 major scales cold so it only takes a second to figure out a note name and also read music on any diatonic harp in any key.
Besides playing scales, transposition was my key to learning. I would take every song I knew and wrote it out in scale degrees. Then I would play that song in all 3 octaves in all 12 positions. I would search for songs with lots of accidentals. 100 songs later, I had it.
|
yonderwall
102 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:28 AM
|
SMTE58, I agree that the top level harp players are as musically adept as top level horn players. I also agree that the average "musically competent" trumpet and sax people almost certainly practice more than your average harmonica player (heaven knows I did!) I also agree that, for those that really work on studying the harmonica note layouts, they will be all the better off in understanding note relationships and keys.
But no matter how much truth and logic you throw at me, I will keep insisting that it is easier to learn the static placement of of the 12 notes in a given octave on the trumpet than it is across the various reeds of my ever more cluttered drawer of harps :)
|
STME58
1334 posts
Jun 16, 2015
8:54 AM
|
yonderwall, emotion trumps truth and logic any day, ask any politician!
Yes, it is easier to find the 12 notes of the chromatic scale on a chromatic instrument like the trumpet, but look at the other side, once you learn the major scale on a diatonic instrument, just change instruments and you have all 12 major scales wit the same pattern. How long does it take to learn all 12 major scales on a chromatic instrument?
Also, you only need 2 diatonics, a half step apart, to have all the notes. Stacked diatonic harps is a pretty common way to play chromatically. It seem to be more popular in Asia than in the US.
I am not sure about your contention about practice levels. Because I keep a couple of harps in my pocket at all time, I practice harp far more than I have ever been able to practice trombone. I did just buy an Allora plastic trumpet which I keep in my car so I can get in a few licks and scales in the parking lot before I go into work in the morning! Accessibility is key. Ask any musician why they play the instrument they do and they will usually tell you it is because one was available.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 16, 2015 8:59 AM
|
timeistight
1790 posts
Jun 16, 2015
9:17 AM
|
@1847: 2nds (and 4ths and 6ths) are intervals in scales; 9ths (and 11ths and 13ths) are intervals in chords or arpeggios because chords are built from stacked thirds.
|
yonderwall
103 posts
Jun 16, 2015
9:19 AM
|
"...but look at the other side, once you learn the major scale on a diatonic instrument, just change instruments and you have all 12 major scales with the same pattern"
Your point here is also absolutely true (I can tell you'd make a bad politician -- or is that phrase a tautology?). I can play many different scales in every key of harp that I own… I just don't know what notes I'm playing most of the time! Which is fine, so long as I don't have to read music (or have to follow chord progressions that fall outside of my comfort zone).
As for practice, I picked up trumpet in school, so friends and I practiced a lot each day (both in school, and out of school, preparing for competitions, etc.). Accessibility is exactly the reason I chose harmonica over other instruments now that I'm older and have less free time to practice (not that you'd know it from my forum posts today!)
|
1847
2452 posts
Jun 16, 2015
10:23 AM
|
thank you mr timeistight!
that really helps, cause that is how i memorized it
there is a simple trick i used to remember the intervals in cross harp
5135723572 on the lower plate
i just used it for an alarm code
every day when i walked in to work i just entered those #s
there are all kinds of opportunities to use those #s just use your imagination
any one can do it. the top plate are the same 3 notes over and over so that is pretty simple to remember
|
Michael Rubin
1047 posts
Jun 16, 2015
10:26 AM
|
1847, I am just checking you know those 7's are b7's.
|
1847
2453 posts
Jun 16, 2015
10:34 AM
|
yep.... draw 5 flat 7
works perfect with blues chords
not so great with straight major
that is a good point mr rubin
i hear players use that note instead of 5 blow
and it can be painful.
Constantine had a great lesson on arpeggios
the other day. i think those are even more important than scales.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 16, 2015 10:36 AM
|
Thievin' Heathen
547 posts
Jun 16, 2015
5:02 PM
|
"100 songs later, I had it"
Now that there's funny, I don't care who ya are.
|
groyster1
2793 posts
Jun 17, 2015
8:10 AM
|
the blues scale is 2nd nature to me,as are second position and which key harp to use....thanks for your contribution mooncat,your posts are always inspiring
|
Michael Rubin
1048 posts
Jun 17, 2015
8:16 AM
|
Thievin' I get that it is funny, but I think it is the reality that most people miss. Talking about a concept with a teacher for an hour doesn't get it. Doing something twice doesn't get it. Spending all your practice time on one thing for a year gets it. If you want to see the benefit of anything, you have to really put in a lot of time.
I feel like Barbeque Bob, but if you want to play at a professional level, you have to work hard. The great thing is with the exception of people with certain physical or mental disabilities anyone can choose to work hard.
By the way, I want to add to my prior post that you should not look at your major scales while transposing songs, you need to use your mind to find the corresponding note to a scale degree. Also, it is not enough to play a song slowly and out of time. You need to play it in time and at a reasonable speed.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Jun 17, 2015 8:21 AM
|
STME58
1338 posts
Jun 17, 2015
9:15 AM
|
I had a martial arts grand master tell me that by the time you practice that punch a million times, you will get it. I thought he was speaking hyperbolically but he then went thought the math and he really meant a million!
|
The Iceman
2515 posts
Jun 17, 2015
9:35 AM
|
1847: "my question is this..... 6 hole draw and 10 hole draw
what makes that a 2 nd as opposed to a 9 th
would the 6 hole be considered a 2 nd and the 10 hole a 9 th?
not that it matters it is still the same note
it just kinda bothers me."
In the diatonic scale, there are 7 notes plus the tonic (1st) note up an octave. If you are considering one octave at a time, they may be labeled as 1 - 8.
When you are considering two octaves as used in voicing chords, you may number them 1 - 14.
The "2" and the "9" are the same note, one octave apart.
Mostly used to help describe chord voicings, 9, 11, 13 are telling you that the sound of this chord has the notes that are 2, 4, 6 placed above any basic chord 7th (either major or minor 7th).
For instance, C6 may be spelled out 1,3,5,6. C13 may be spelled out 1,3,5,b7,13 (the b7 is usually part of this particular chord voicing)- with the top note being the 6th note up an octave above the other notes.
This is very simple C13 chord structure, but not really used as such. A more interesting chord voicing may be written out as 1, b7, 10, 13 - the "10 is merely the "3" up an octave, but this type of numbering indicates that this "3" must be placed ABOVE the b7 for this voicing. Likewise for the 13, which is just the 6 up an octave.
This makes the most sense if you sit at a piano and play the chords, listening to their "color" or "quality".
For harmonica, unless thinking advance harmony/theory, it's easiest to just think of the numbers from 1 - 8 as basic scale degrees. Any number above 8, just subtract 7 from this number and it will bring you back to the basic one octave note scale degree.
----------
The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 17, 2015 9:36 AM
|
Post a Message
|
