I have a buddy who plays harp also. We have messed around with dueling harps. We find that we can only get this to work when in the same key. We have tried crossing as in, I play A while he plays D. Why does this not work for us? It there another way to try this rather then us both playing the same key? Thanks...BN
How about this. Since you can generally play minor over a major key tune, have one of you start in say A then the other come in playing it in Am. And go back & forth this way. May work. ----------
Forgive the temporary memory lapse but there is a nice video of Shenandoah that has been submitted here a couple of times that uses 3 harps as I recall. In one of the threads the player explains what he is doing and which harps he uses.
Slaphappy, that depends on the keys. The reason A and D are close on the circle of 5ths (and D works for crossharp for A) is that they share 6 of the 7 notes in their scale.
That means, for the most part they won't be dissonant, but dissonance isn't always bad, in fact, it's an important part of music. You'll hear it a lot on a piano- the pianist will play a chord that doesn't quite sound right and he'll let it hang there for a second and then go to the 'right' chord.
Barley, the first thing I'd try is getting one of you on a low tuned harp. That would help listeners differentiate which part was which. (If you are recording you can just pan one of you left and the other right and that will help.)
Basically, you are doing harmony with each other. If you are playing at the same time there are some rules of composition you have to be aware of. Human ears have a hard time keeping track of separate sources of sound, and a confused ear is often an unhappy ear. The first thing you want to avoid is crossing parts. Basically, one of you plays the low part, the other plays the high part. It's fine for the low player to go up, but if he does, he still has to stay below (or equal to) the high part. This applies to melodies too, not just individual instrument parts. This example is all on organ, but it visually shows what the different themes are doing.
The other thing you need to avoid is parallel octaves and to a lesser extent, parallel 5ths. Again, it comes down to confusing the human ear. It's hard for a lot of people to hear two separate notes when you play an octave, (or fifth). They hear something fuller, but don't hear the separation. So, if you play a C4 and he plays a C5 that's fine, but if the next note you play is a D4 and a he plays a D5 you've just made a parallel octave and the listener will have a hard time distinguishing the parts. (On a recording, you can pan the parts left and right and get away with it, although it gives you a very ornate sound.)
I think he was implying they were playing 1st and 2nd, but I suspect with bends in play they may also be creating some other dissonance.
I'd guess the problems had more to do with parts crossing. Even when instruments have distinctly different voices it can be a bit of a problem. When it's two harps, or two voices it can make a mess. (Another solution is to throw and effect on one, but avoiding crossing is better solution.) It's probably also a good idea, for simplicity (you can get more complex as you get better at it) to have the lower part doing something chugging related and the top part doing the melody.
(That second link, which may or may not be showing on the quicktime player, is an example of parallel movement. It's panned left and right. Sounds better in headphones.)
@Barley Nectar: Can´t promise you this is helful, but if you listen to this track you can hear two harps, second one sneaking after a while, and I´m pretty sure they are in different keys/positions (no harps available for verification right now). It seems to work out just fine:
I have done this jamming at a harp meet. Or have one guy doing a basic boogie chord thing and the other improvise and then swap around using same key harp same position. I have also done this at harp meets. BronzeWailer's YouTube
No doubt that the High-Low setup will work. We would both be in the same key, just one octave apart. 1847, we can definitely try that. The Major-Minor setup that 2chops suggests is interesting. From what Nate is saying, the straight/cross setup should work. A straight, D cross. Maybe my buddy and I just have not figured this out yet. He is a member here. Sleepy Stevenson. More of a lurker then a poster. I'll see if I can get him on this thread as he knows theory, which I don't. I was hopeing there was some "Rule of Thumb" that applied to two harps. Maybe not?...BN
The "rule of thumb" is that you don't need to play the same key harps but you do need to play *in* the same key.
In your original post, you wrote "I play A while he plays D". If you mean that you and your friend are playing *in* two different keys, that won't work. If you meant that you're playing on harps of two different keys, that should work as long as you both play *in* the same key!
For example if you play an A harp in 1st position and your friend plays a D harp in 2nd position, that will work because you are both playing in A. Or you could play in 2nd while he plays in 3rd; you'd both be playing in E.
If it isn't working, then you probably aren't playing the right positions to match keys.
I´d suggest once again that Barley Nectar checks out Al Ferrier´s Yard dog" above. I´m pretty sure that, at the end, you can hear two harps (A and D) both playing in E. Hence, different harps/positions, same (song) key -- and it works. (And I´ve done it several times myself, no problemo.)
If, as timeistight implies, Barley N might think that two harps playing in DIFFERENT keyes should work, then Barley needs some elementary musical schooling.
Well, as nacoran recently wrote, "Teaching theory on a harp forum is tough because you never know what level people are on. It's possible to be a very good player by ear and not understand any theory." Since the original description was ambiguous, and since playing on different keys of harmonica should work fine, I thought that we shouldn't assume an understanding of positions and keys.
We can't really know why BN's harp duels aren't working unless we hear them.
Well, as I said, I don't know music theory. I do know electrical theory. I strictly play by ear. Sleepy and I have been wanting to try this again so I posted this question. I believe that your replies will be helpful. One of us must lay down a tune in 1st position while the other one plays in another position relevant to the first. I believe we were both just jammin around and found that it only worked when we were in the same key. First, second and third positions are about all I know. I sometimes find myself playing well, while being outside of this meager understanding. No doubt in some unknown position. 42 years of playing must account for something. Thanks for the help folks...BN
