Hey guys, I'm not new to harp...I'm fairly decent and have probably missed 30 days of practice in the last 7 years. But I don't understand positions! I know I can play in at least 3 different positions...but I don't know which ones they are. I assume it is 1st, 2nd and 12th? I dont know... Can someone explain how this works or direct me to some sort of chart or something. I can play both harmonica and percusion well, but as far as music theory or anything like that, I'm completely ignorant. Cheers in advance! Rusty
I need to tweak this a bit further to show the relationship between the 1 , 4, and 5 chords (In Key C that would be C, F and G) and how their relative minors follow them on the circle sequentially (In Key C that would be C has relative minor Am, F has relative minor of Dm, and G has relative minor of Em)
So in Key of C the circle of fifths would show F-C-G-Dm-Am-Em-Bdim.
Key: C F is the 4th with relative minor Dm. Dm is also the 2m for key C C is the 1 with relative minor Am. Am is the 6m of key C. G is the 5th w/ relative minor Em. Em is the 3m of Key C.
In Positions on a C harp: F is the 12th position on a C harp C is the 1st position G is 2nd position Dm is 3rd position Am is 4th position Em is 5th position
This simple formula major/relative minor and circle layout formula is actually a very powerful way of remembering how keys are related using the circle of fifths.
That is good stuff from Komuso,but a simpler way to help you is. Your band calls a tune in E.What harp do you pick up? If you choose an A harp you are playing 2nd position Hole two draw is your home(root) note If you pick up a D harp you are playing in 3rd position Hole 1 draw is your root note. If you pick up an E harp you are playing in first position..ie the harp is tuned to the key the song is in. Those are by far the most common ways to play Blues harmonica. If your usual choice is another key of harp for a song in E,let us know and we can tell you what position you are actually playing
Thanks fellas. I know which harps to use to get in which key I want to play...but when I play in F on a Bb harp, I don't understand what about my playing that "defines" that I'm in 2nd position...sorry if that doesn't make sense. In other words: I can play a song such as Amazing Grace in 4 places on a harp....but I don't know which position I am in when I play it in the different ways.
I can start on the 1 hole draw (3rd position?) I can start on the 2 hole draw/3 hole blow (2nd position?) I can start on the 4 hole blow (1st position?) I can start on the 6 hole blow (12th position?)
Is this correct? I'm guessing this is close based on Indigo's response. This is what I want to know...if I just pick up a harp in any random key and start improvising, how do I know what position I'm in? It looks like the answer is in Mr So&So's music theory pdf..but I'm answering too many emails for work right now, I'll definitely read through this later this week, cheers!
Komuso, that software looks pretty cool. I tried getting the free version for Mac, but it seems to be an error at the moment. I'll try back later, thanks for the video though.
It's all about breath patterns. Using the same breath pattern, you can play in one position or its relative major/minor depending on the not you start on:
Regardless of the key, the breath patters are the same.
Take a look at the middle octave of your harp. The six unbent notes played on holes 4, 5 and 6 are the tonic notes for each of the six scales you can play easily. Here's a chart to help you remember what key, breath pattern and position each scale represents when starting the scale from the middle octave.
Amazing grace starts on the fifth. If you start on draw one; that's second position. Draw two AND blow six is first position albeit in different octaves. Blow four is twelfth.
Do learn some theory. It's good for understanding and talking about what you (we) are doing. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
I've been sailing on uncharted sea for about a month now. No blues and strictly country and gospel. I'm overworked and breathless every minute. I was used to Amazing Grace in 2nd but I am now being pushed to first and twelfth. I have a very patient mentor that is kind enough to stop picking and be silent while he tells me kindly that he is entertained while listening to my hunt and peck.
I wonder if concentrating on blues is the best strategy for becoming a good harp player. I love the blues but I'm progressing by crossing the line over other genres.
Rusty26 – You're very close (you may even be correct depending what you mean) when you say:
I can start on the 1 hole draw (3rd position?) I can start on the 2 hole draw/3 hole blow (2nd position?) I can start on the 4 hole blow (1st position?) I can start on the 6 hole blow (12th position?)
Only issue is that Amazing grace doesn't start on the root/tonic note. The first note played is the 5th. The root/tonic is the "...mazing" note of A"...mazing" Grace... – the second note played – I hope this makes sense.
The short answer to finding out what position you are in is where the root/tonic note is:
Root on the 1 hole draw/4hole draw – 3rd position Root on the 2 hole draw/3 hole blow – 2nd position Root on the 1 hole blow/4 hole blow – 1st position (The key the harmonica is marked in). Root on the 6 hole blow – Also 2nd position, an octave higher than the 2draw/3blow.
Here is the blues scale tabbed out in all 12 positions. You don't need to worry about the scale itself. You can play all sorts of different scales in all sorts of different positions. The important thing is that the position you are playing in is defined by where the root/tonic "first" note of the scale is played.
Teaching theory on a harp forum is tough because you never know what level people are on. It's possible to be a very good player by ear and not understand any theory. Let's start with the very basics.
If you look at a piano you'll notice it has black and white keys. If you count all the notes, black and white, you get 12 notes before the scale starts repeating. That's the chromatic scale. When people talk about keys (or modes) they are talking about a specific pattern of 7 of those 12 notes. On a piano, if you start on C and play just the white keys you get the C Major scale- it's the only key with only white keys (just naturals, no flats or sharps). If you were to sit down and figure out the pattern you would have the pattern for the major scale and you could start on any other note and use that same pattern to get a different major scale. It would be a pattern of white and black notes. The key of G would be pretty similar to the key of C. Why? Well, it turns out, to get that same pattern starting on the G you only need to play one black note (F#).
To play harmonica you don't need to know all the details (although it doesn't hurt) but you need to know that because of patterns keys that are one step apart from each other on the circle of fifths will have 7 notes and 6 of those notes will be the same. (Look at the still from Komuso's video, that's the circle of fifths. Notice C and G are right next to each other.) You can, if you want, sit with a piano and figure out that the pattern is the same, (it is) or you can take it as a matter of faith.
What this means for us harmonica players is that songs in G are pretty easy to play on a C harmonica because there is only one 'wrong' note, and it shifts the breathing pattern so that the tonic ('Do' in a scale) is on a draw note, and draw notes sound cool.
There is more complicated stuff using different scales, major, minor, modes and all that, but it's all about patterns, but the principle is the same. Positions are named by how many steps around the circle of fifths the 'Do' note is from the organic 'Do' note on the harmonica you are playing. If you are playing on a G harmonica in the key of G you are in 1st. If you are playing in G on a C you are playing in 2nd. If you are playing on an F you are playing in third, etc, except this means you are playing a different pattern than you would be if you were just playing the white keys on the piano. A different pattern means you are playing a different kind of key or mode. That's actually good news, because it means you can get the harmonica to easily play in a minor key or even some weird modes that no one uses most of the time. It gives our instrument a lot of easy flexibility. I play in folk music and some rock in 1st. I play blues in 2nd. Sometimes I play melodies in 12th. I play minor stuff in 3rd or 5th. All that means is that the 'Do' of the scale I'm playing is in a different place on the harmonica.
Now, that assumes you are, for the most part, not doing crazy things on the harmonica. You have to bend some notes to get the blues scale (different than a major scale), but not too much. It is possible for an overblower to actually play any key on any harmonica. They basically force the harmonica to play the pattern they want. Unfortunately, when someone says they are playing in 5th position it's not necessarily clear whether they mean they are playing the scale that naturally lays out in 5th or some other scale they are bending to get.
But, that's the theory and reason. Fortunately, if you don't care about the minutiae there are all sorts of shortcuts and tricks and charts to make it easier to do. I think if you know the concept underneath it all though that it's easier to apply those charts.
That's a really great explanation, Nate, except for one part that I found confusing:
If you are playing on a G harmonica in the key of G you are in 1st. If you are playing in C you are playing in 2nd. If you are playing in F you are playing in third, etc,
If you're playing in C (on your G harmonica) you're in 12th position, not 2nd. Similarly, playing in F would be 11th position.
Maybe you meant playing in the key of G on a C harmonica which would be 2nd position (and playing in the key of G on an F harmonica would be 3rd).
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 13, 2015 6:17 PM
I agree with timeistight that Nate's explanation is a good one. One minor point that could cause confusion if one studies music further. "Do" (as in Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do) in a scale is the tonic, not the root. The root is part of a chord and can be any note in the scale, including "Do". A good layman's term for tonic is "Home note". It is the note that sounds like it does not need to go anywhere else. It is the note the key is named for.
Root and tonic are frequently confused (by more than one poster just in this thread), in part because they are sometimes the same, and also because the general meaning of the word root, matches what the base note of a scale is. However, in music terminology, root applies to chords, not scales. The potential for confusion is if you are asked to play the root of a IV chord in C, that would be F, the root of the F,A,C chord. Not C which is the Tonic or "Home Note" of the C scale.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 13, 2015 3:30 PM
Timeistight, good catch. I meant if you are playing in G on a C harmonica. I fixed it. Fixed the root/tonic issue too. I'd actually forgotten the distinction. That actually explains the strange look I get from the guitar guy sometimes!
Part of the problem explaining it all is there are so many words with overlapping meanings. Even silly things like keys have two meanings- the set of notes in the scale and that physical thing on the piano that you push to make a note, and positions get all crazy when you start getting into Jason Ricci and Howard Levy territory.
Thank you. This is all great information. I am one of BBQ Bob's 'lazy' (not comfortable with that label) musical illiterates. Having played flute in bands for years my ear was always adequate. On the occasions I did break out a harp I counted on memory, the guitar player's call or my own notes to choose the right harp. Since concentrating on and trying to improve my harp playing over this past year or so I've reached and surpassed the place where I left off years ago but progress has slowed.
I've recently been playing with a guitar player who also does not read music but he knows his chords. He would call his chord and while I knew better, I picked up the key of the chord he called rather than shuffle through my harps. That got me exploring positions I would not generally consider.
Further, I've found that there is a lot of key changing (modulatin'?) within certain country and gospel songs which has also become a welcome challenge. My temporary fix has been to print out the lyrics and mark the verses with the appropriate key and hole (ie 1D).
My 'AHA' moment is near and the information in this thread has the circle of fifths making much more sense. I took piano lessons as a kid so the explanation is much more vivid now.
...."I am one of BBQ Bob's 'lazy' (not comfortable with that label) musical illiterates..."
Believe me you are not the only one. It comes with a heavy dose of condescension...
I'm learning my scales & different positions mostly 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 5th... but I have found my favorite is the Upright Position... (preferably on this side of ground)
Nice thread. My apologies in advance for the humor (or lack there of...)
Last Edited by Spderyak on Apr 15, 2015 4:38 AM
@Spderyak, along with Upright, try first out and second inversion ! ;-)
On a more serious but still frivolous note, a acrostic for remembering the circle of fifths from F to B is;
Fat Cats Go Down An Elevator Backwards
So if you want to play in E (Elevator) in second position, grab and A (An) harp. This is also the order in which sharps are added to a key signature. If you see 3 sharps, they are F C and G (Fat Cats Go). The major key is one step above the last sharp added so three sharps, F,C,G is A major. Two sharps, F,C would be D Major.
Learn this and you can appear more professional, and might even be able to hide that you can't read music, by grabbing the right harp the first time after just glancing at a lead sheet. This is not enough to tell you what mode the song is in (Major Minor Dorian etc) but it will tell you which harp has the right notes on it for the piece.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 15, 2015 8:42 AM
Great thread! Yeah, picked up trying to learn to play music later in life, and thought learning a little theory might be a good idea. Never been so frustrated in my life. I have had zero problems with intellectual pursuits in other areas of my life, but circle of fifths and other stuff, forget about it.
The most frustrating thing is I feel like a true understanding is just beyond my grasp. Kinda like I think I have the "aha!" moment "I got it", then I start reading a thread on here about some part of theory and I go, "whoops, I guess I don't got it". Another way of saying it is I understand bits and pieces, but a coherent whole escapes me (if that makes any sense).
Oh yeah, nice job Nate on that explanation. You're a natural born teacher, though in my case it might be a lost cause.
For those of you who are keen on getting into theory, Michael Rubin has a invaluable series of lessons on theory and specifically how it relates to the harmonica. I think there's nearly 100 lessons on there and they're really good. It starts out for beginners but for people with a bit more knowledge have a look at some later ones. Here's the first three:
(Flats) Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go (Naturals) Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go Circle of Fifths
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G C F
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle /Goes Down And Ends Battle
(that's kind of the mnemonic for adding flats and sharps to keys too- Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle is the order you add sharps, and Battle Ends and Down Goes Charles's Father is the order for flats, but don't worry about that now.) ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Dang Nate! I've been working with fat cats in elevators for 30 years and now you smash all my fat cats with elephants and donkeys! I'm so confused! :-)
Side note, if you go clockwise(like a Fat Cat, or Father Charles) it is a circle of 5ths, G is a fifth above C. If you go counterclockwise (Like elephants and donkeys) it is a circle of 4ths. F is a fourth below C. So once you learn this little chart and all its mysteries, don't despair if someone mentions the circle of fourths, you've already got it! (Kind of like when someone calls the key of Fb and the uninitiated panic))
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 15, 2015 11:38 AM
Wow! Cheers guys (and gals?). This is a ton of info, most of which is really helpful. This is really awesome, what a great community you all have here...I'm glad to have found it. I've been super busy at work, so I'll really look into this on the weekend and hopefully I'll get a real grasp on it. Really appreciate it. I'll let you know how I go! -Rusty
