1847
2275 posts
Apr 07, 2015
2:28 PM
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what does the made in Germany label mean
my las post got eaten by the spam monster
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nacoran
8399 posts
Apr 07, 2015
3:40 PM
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I remember as a kid there was still a vague prejudice against Japanese goods as being inferior and anything from Hong Kong, Korea or Taiwan was considered junk. Now a lot of the worlds electronics are manufactured there. Even the made in the U.S.A. branding has taken a beating in Detroit.
It's too bad there isn't a better metric for easily determining quality. When you buy a ping pong paddle it breaks the score down into 'control' 'speed' and maybe some third stat. (It's been awhile since I've bought a paddle.) Just because something is made in China doesn't mean it is junk, but depending on the industry it may.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Goldbrick
947 posts
Apr 07, 2015
4:58 PM
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I am old enuff to remember that we didnt buy anything made in Germany as my dad is a WW2 vet
I still prefer to avoid German goods when I can .
It is interesting for whatever reason that prejudice did not extend to Japanese items
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SuperBee
2526 posts
Apr 07, 2015
6:15 PM
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that is interesting Goldbrick. here the prejudice was much stronger against japanese goods when i was young. there was recognition that japan was producing high quality products but also resentment and some cynicism about it.
but re the OP, i guess the implication is that Hohner harps aren't necessarily made in Germany, even though they are 'made in Germany'.
but, there is still a factory in Trossingen with a workforce producing harps, and i believe visitors are able to tour the factory, though i'm not sure if that extends to the public. Australian importer rep assured me she had seen the production very recently
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Komuso
532 posts
Apr 07, 2015
6:47 PM
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That was a great post 1847.
It's an important issue and I'm on the side of labeling at point of most production or value added (not bullshit value add though).
I'm old enough to remember when Made In Japan meant cheap crap that broke (actually they still have problems in that area aka Fukushima but lets not go there...)
China and Korea also used to be like that with electronics, but not any more.
Food and drugs, however, are different.
We avoid any made in china food or pharma products like the plague here.
It's easy to track components in the supply/production chain and show the customer a product audit trail. It's being done with food in some areas. Scan the product in the supermarket and see the details direct from farmer.
But as 1847 points out it will get significant push back from companies which rely on marketing to project a fake image, which sadly is the majority.
Smart companies will embrace transparency as the marketing game is changing and transparency is an advantage to be used to enhance a brand. Dumb companies will find out the hard way when they get exposed and all those expensive traditional marketing campaigns are wiped out by a consumer backlash.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Apr 07, 2015 6:50 PM
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Raven
36 posts
Apr 08, 2015
6:04 AM
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The sad fact is that Americans, by and large, prefer price over quality. This, of course is the major factor stimulating foreign trade and production along with greedy profiteering by manufacturers. The majority of big companies have succumbed to the option of low-wage workers in off-shore manufacturing to add to their bottom line. And that, unfortunately, includes companies we have all respected over the years like Hohner. There are still many companies that keep to the tradition of quality. Germany still makes some of the finest opticals, cars, harps. And today, some of the best electronics, cars and harps are "Made in Japan." Yes, that is a major change from the 1950's.
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1847
2279 posts
Apr 08, 2015
11:23 AM
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in the late nineties hohner was virtually insolvent
they were bought out by the Chinese
hundreds and hundreds of employees were let go
production was" progressively" moved to china.
the harmonica community has convinced them self's that
only the low price inferior models are made in China
there is no way they could ever produce a harmonica as sophisticated as a special 20
only a German craftsman has those skills.
it will be interesting to see if this law passes.
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Meaux Jeaux
66 posts
Apr 08, 2015
1:59 PM
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I am old enuff to remember when the U.S. produced goods the entire world wanted, now it seems the U.S. is best at producing debt:(
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sonny3
255 posts
Apr 08, 2015
5:04 PM
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So are all Hohners made in China or only "Progressive" models?Hmm...
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Danny Starwars
92 posts
Apr 08, 2015
5:20 PM
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When I was a kid too, Made In Japan meant 'crap'. Now, if some Harmonica God told me I could only have one brand/model of harp for my whole line, I could chose 'Manji' and be completely happy.
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STME58
1271 posts
Apr 08, 2015
6:00 PM
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You can make a good product anywhere, you can make a bad product anywhere. Nowdays we have big contract manufacturers like New Kinpo Group and Foxcon who have metal stamping, injection molding, circuit board manufacture and top level assembly all on one site. You can send them your design and the will pump it out for you at a million a month. If you want it done well though, you will have to supervise it closely. I have been to a few of these factories and if you don't have the staff there to make sure it gets off to a good start you probably won't get what you are expecting.
It is well known that Apple produces products using Foxcon, but they always have Apple staff in the plant to make sure the quality is there. Where it is made is important, but how the details of production are overseen is more important.
Just moving within a country can cause problems. Conn moved from Indiana to Texas in 1968 and many musicians avoid Conn horns made in the years just after 1968 because of quality problems, perceived or real.
On the WWII prejudice issue. My wife tells me that in the 70's when she was getting her first car, her dad, who flew for the US Navy in the pacific during WWII, was OK with her getting a Mitsubishi. His logic, Mitsubishi made a good airplane (the Zero) so the car is probably pretty good!
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 08, 2015 6:03 PM
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Goldbrick
948 posts
Apr 08, 2015
6:13 PM
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I guess the car would be good for one trip only.
The A6M7 Type 0 Model 62 was the Kamikaze plane
( They made some high quality planes too)
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CarlA
742 posts
Apr 08, 2015
8:07 PM
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Nothing!
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Komuso
534 posts
Apr 08, 2015
9:34 PM
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History diversion time!
The Mitsubishi Zero's (Navy fighter) were a stellar early wartime design that most people know, but the Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar) shot down more Allied aircraft than any other Japanese fighter and almost all the JArmyAirForce aces achieved most of their kills in it.
The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) of the late war period was also comparable to the best allied designs of the time, and held its own.
Fortunately Japan couldn't produce enough of them at the time or keep the ones they had running properly.
Hideo Itokawa was a key Nakajima aircraft designer (and the Hayabusa designer) and was also central to Japan's post war space program, known as the father of Japan's space development. It came full cycle when the asteroid 25143 Itokawa, named in honor of him, was the target of the Hayabusa asteroid landing mission from 2003 -2010.
Unfortunately the current "leadership" are taking Japan backwards so get those quality harps while you can Japan in long battle over war apology
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Apr 09, 2015 1:17 AM
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Glass Harp Full
20 posts
Apr 08, 2015
10:15 PM
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"Made in China" doesn't necessarily mean bad quality. They make some really good stuff too. The white goods company Haier is very good and so is Meidi (air conditioners, kitchen appliances etc.). China's also doing some interesting stuff with solar panels and other renewable energy products.
As for harps, I've got a Hohner Blues Bender from the Progressive range which works well. Years ago I had a Bluesband that lasted for ages.
But as someone said food and medicine from China are real worries though.
Last Edited by Glass Harp Full on Apr 08, 2015 10:19 PM
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SuperBee
2533 posts
Apr 09, 2015
3:17 PM
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If hohner are actually making harps in china and labelling them made in Germany because they bolt the covers on there, or pack them there...does it matter? It would only matter if the quality declined I think, and the quality actually improved out of sight a few years ago. There are some rumblings lately that it's slumped, but I don't know, it all seems to be anecdotes from people who habitually break reeds. I haven't heard any custom harp builders complaining that the quality of hohner harps is in decline.
I bought 5 marine bands on special earlier this year. They were gapped poorly but apart from that they are great harps as far as I can tell. I repaired a rocket a few weeks back, for a player who can break a 5 draw in 2 weeks, and that was a brilliant harp I thought.
So, if these harps are really made in China, the Chinese plant is doing a good job IMHO. Better than any other Chinese harps I've played.
How about Suzuki btw? Where are they made? Did I hear they are made in several places including china?
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Komuso
536 posts
Apr 09, 2015
5:57 PM
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>>If hohner are actually making harps in china and labelling them made in Germany because they bolt the covers on there, or pack them there...does it matter?
Yes, because it's a lie. The quality is an issue, but is separate. What have they got to hide?
"italian" tomatoes labeled as such but in reality are Chinese tomatoes shipped in and packed in Italy just so they can slap a false eu label on it is no different.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Aussiesucker
1469 posts
Apr 09, 2015
6:09 PM
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The argument re labeling of goods showing where they are made and sourced is very big in Australia. Of course the big multinationals conceal this to trade on the perceived quality and support for local or accepted standards. The biggest argument here is in regards to food labeling which is a complete sham. The statement on packaging so indistinct or small stating 'made in Australia from local & imported ingredients' is found on almost everything. The local ingredients may be the addition of water! One long standing local manufacturer 'Golden Circle' sourced all its produce locally since 1947 & was considered a quality product. Golden Circle was gobbled up by Heinz & shifted off shore to New Zealand whose labeling laws are less stringent but accepted here. Now our Golden Circle tinned produce states made in New Zealand but in fact the contents are sourced from China. Serious contamination has been linked to cans of beetroot which in fact contained poo.
Unfortunately our governments enter into free trade agreements which are themselves a complete sham. Free trade does not consider the inequalities in production standards, rates of pay and treatment of workers, and the waste in freighting stuff around the world which is often subsidised by the taxpayer.
As with everything else we must expect that the multinationals will play with our minds re harmonica manufacture. I think that most of the Hohner harps I own have been manufactured in Germany with the exception of a 364 which states manufactured in the Czech Republic. Also my Japanese harps Suzuki and Lee Oskar I believe are Japanese? The only Suzuki I have which clearly states made in China is the little Folkmaster. I recall the times when something that was made in Japan was considered to be junk but nowadays everything made in Japan is first class be it Harmonicas, watches or cars.
Another big argument linked in to MultiNationals is their avoidance in paying the correct level of taxation where they sell goods. They shift profits around to occur in tax havens offering them lower rates. This can only be addressed by all countries having a pact to clamp down on these companies. In fact companies like Google & Apple are so powerful that unless aspects of their activities are curtailed they could even impact on the sovereignty of a country.
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Last Edited by Aussiesucker on Apr 09, 2015 6:12 PM
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SuperBee
2534 posts
Apr 09, 2015
6:32 PM
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'made in japan' has been an indication of high quality since at least the 70s, but we may have been slow to recognise or acknowledge such in australia due to the legacy of ill-feeling from WW2.
komuso, yeah ok in a wider sense of marketing morality and truth in advertising it may matter, but to me as a consumer of harmonica product i don't think it matters a jot. if it means the product is shoddy, after-sales service is poor, quality control is lacking etc, then yes its a problem. but if i discovered my favourite harp was not made where i'd thought it was, so what.
fwiw, i haven't seen anything to make me even wonder whether sp20 and marine band harps are still actually made in Germany, anymore than i wonder whether Toyotas still come from Melbourne
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shakeylee
222 posts
Apr 09, 2015
6:41 PM
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i really think ,in the eighties,huang made a better harp than hohner,at the time.seems like they've reversed positions.
i wouldn't be surprised if most brands had some things made in the same chinese factory
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Komuso
538 posts
Apr 09, 2015
7:12 PM
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@superbee
I couldn't care less if it's made in China and the quality is aok.
But as @Aussiesucker correctly points out by leaving the door open for multinationals to lie about where they manufacture is leaving the door open to all sorts of manipulation downstream.
When shit does happen it's faster to pinpoint where the potential problem is if the supply/production chain is transparent.
Also see 1847's point re: on site manufacturing oversight to keep quality control on track.
Apple, to their credit, label things as "Designed in Cupertino, Made in China". Is that so hard to do?
By not doing so indicates your company does not have the balls to be honest about their supply/manufacturing chain and they think consumers are sheeple who can be manipulated through false quality labeling.
Actually it's more like they know because they wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work right?
Afaik Tombo/Suzuki are manufactured in Japan, at least the core sub brands that make up their product lines.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Apr 09, 2015 7:16 PM
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nacoran
8400 posts
Apr 09, 2015
8:06 PM
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I like the idea of being able to look up the supply chain for a product, not just because it lets you get an idea where it's made, but because that kind of transparency puts pressure on companies and countries to raise the bar. For food, that means better inspection regimens. For harmonicas it might be as small as a touch of national pride encouraging workers to be a little more conscientious.
In electronics it may become more and more of an issue for an entirely different set of reasons as different governments try to put back doors into devices for nefarious cloak and dagger stuff. There already have been corporations that have left backdoors for DMCA enforcement that have compromised security (the Sony rootkit, for instance) and there's a fair amount of evidence that both our NSA and the Chinese have done some shady things to be able to spy on people.
Hopefully there are no secret recording devices tucked in our iPhones (or harmonicas!)
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Nate
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SuperBee
2535 posts
Apr 09, 2015
8:15 PM
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its not so much 1847's point as it is the point of the author of that article he posted, but ok...but while i understand 1847 posted this because he sees it as supporting his idea that hohner is not being open about their production location, i'm yet to see any actual evidence this may be the case. all that article demonstrates is that they probably could get away with labelling the product made in germany even if it was all made in another place, as long as something happened to it in germany. that doesnt mean they are. when pressed they continue to say the product is made in germany as far as i know.
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Komuso
539 posts
Apr 09, 2015
8:48 PM
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I wouldn't know, but would be interesting to find out imo.
I was speaking more generally, as others point out it IS a problem in a lot of areas now and we as consumers are the ones who should be pushing companies to be honest. I really do think it does matter.
And I still use my Korean made Hohner G3-T Steinberger knockoff I bought way back in 1991!
They even sent me 2 free replacement bridges from Germany 20 years after I bought it. Great service!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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