Band practice became a chore when the guitar player told me he was tuning down a half step to make it easier for one of the singers to sing his tumes. I have played with other bands where this has been done and never had to adjust. This time I was not in key at all and struggled to find the right harp. I was trying to stay in 2nd position. I was playing a higher harp key like E or F. What might have gone wrong here? This band has never done this before so it could be their problem? I need tips on how to deal with this and get it right. Thanks.
Last Edited by Lonesome Harpman on Feb 23, 2015 8:24 AM
Hard to say. What happened apart from being in wrong key? Boss said I'm tuning down a half step (song is previously in C, now it's in B) You normally play F harp 2nd posn on song and so changed to an E harp? If so, maybe your E harp is out of tune or the boss miscommunicated. Didn't just pick up the wrong harp?
you need flat key harps (plus a keyboard in front of you would help).
A-flat for song in E D-flat for song in A F-sharp for song in D B for song in G E for song in C A for song in F D for song in B-flat
---------- MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by bluemoose on Feb 22, 2015 3:24 PM
Re-tuning a half step to sing is a bit weird. SRV did it plenty but that was for guitar. The problem is more likely trying to accommodate someone who is having a hard time singing. A whole step is standard & not too far (the usual key may be just a half step above anyway). Qualifier, I sing way crappy. And, having all the harps is a good thing.
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 23, 2015 3:30 AM
Well the good news I have all of those harps except a Db. After reading your comments I am going to assume that someone in the band was off key making it impossible for me to find my harp.
@Littoral - bands do it all the time. Guitars don't like to tune down a full step because then they need to adjust intonation and string gauge to compensate.
@Lonesome - you need to get the absolute key, not the key relative to tuning. Think of it like the guitarist putting on a capo on the second fret and playing in "C" - well that's actually the key of D. So Key of C with guitar tuned down becomes Bb. Also - tuning down a half step means they are going to go out of tune more easily, so they will need to retune regularly.
(like I said,really helps to have a keyboard, virtual or real, in front of you. :) ) ---------- MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
If a guitar player is tuning down 1/2 step, it usually means two things:
a.)The action of the strings is set unusually high (a number of players who play slide have a tendency to do that), and/or
b.) They are using unusually heavy strings (for example: many guitar players string guage from highest to lowest is 0.09/0.10 to about 0.42), and for both of the reasons that I've listed, tuning lower helps ease the tension on the neck of the guitar.
As long as you've got harps that are a 1/2 step lower, there's nothing to freak out about and it's an important reason to have all 12 keys on you so you're ready for anything.
When you look at the fretboard of a guitar, each fret represents 1/2 steep and in standard tuning for a guitar, from lowest to highest pitch, the notes are E-A-D-G-B-E, which means if the guitar is tuned 1/2 step down, the notes are now Eb(D#)-Ab(G#)-Db(C#)-Gb(F#)-Eb(D#). However, if he uses a capo on the first fret, he's already back to standard tuning and each fret the capo goes on brings the guitar tuning sharper in pitch by correspongding 1/2 steps.
If you take time to learn basic theory and know where the notes are on every instrument, you'll find yourself freaking out about this stuff far less.
Since I also play guitar and have been with guitarists who don't tell the key, but just show where their hands are on the fretboard (like the way my old boss Jimmy Rogers did), it was no big deal for me at all. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I was told by the "singer guitar" player that this makes the song easier for him to sing. You and others point out their are other reasons guitar players tune down. Is making it easier to sing not one of those reasons? If not, shouldn't he just lower the key?
That is what he should normally do. A guitar is like a piano- you can play in any key
Maybe your guitar player is not comfortable playing off the fret markers he usually plays on or he is using "cowboy" ( first position) chords that dont allow him to play the way he wants.
Are you sure they tuned down a half step. I have realized that one way to get rid of a harp player would be to tune down a quarter step;-)
It is fairly easy to mis-tune if you accidentally set the tuner to A=450 or something like that. I have done it before and wondered what went wrong with my harp.
Look at it this way: singing in a different key because it is easier for the vocalist is no big deal and very common, tho tuning down 1/2 step for this purpose is actual unusual. Often times, what this is more like using a capo in reverse and usually when a guitar player uses a capo, it's usually to raise the tuning of the strings by at least a 1/2 step, but using the fingering patterns of a particular key so there's more use of open strings.
For example, most guitar players don't like playing a more down home sound or even Jimmy Reed stuff in F, and so to get around this and it work like you're playing in E, placing the capo on the 1st fret raises everything by 1/2 step sharp, and now all of the fingering patterns that were used in E are now in F, so think of tuning down the reverse of this.
Not all singers are going to lower the key and and some will raise the key because that's where the range of their voice lies.
For some guitarists, using a guitar tuned to an open chord, like open D for example, which is from lowest to highest. D-A-D-F#-A-D, for some makes it seem easier to sing, but there are some things that work out better from a guitar playing standpoint (the Elmore James/Hound Dog Taylor/JB Hutto slide guitar sound comes under this). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Feb 24, 2015 10:06 AM
Tuning down to E-flat for all guitar players I know and know of ,do it to loosen the strings in order to bend those strings,with more vibrato control.some tune to D,which is easy for harp choice,but e-flat means A-flat,D-flat harps etc.Jimi Hendrix,SRV ,tuned to E-flat,I think Johnny Winter tuned to D,Albert King tuned low too.
Last Edited by nowmon on Feb 24, 2015 5:32 AM
I'm a singer. There are very few cases where I need a song in a particular key within 1/2 step, but I have found a few where that half step makes a real difference. If you're a serious harp player and you're going to sit in with others - you simply have to have all 12 key harps. Period. End of sentence. End of story.
(I DO use cheaper harps for weird harp keys like F#)
P.S. - If it was good enough for Stevie Ray Vaughan, its good enough for me.
Yeah, I started bringing all 12 keys (more, really--low and high E and F, and all those custom tunings . . .) just in case-- Better to have it and not need it . . . And by coincidence, I cleaned and gapped my Db last night!
Steve Cropper, who is better known for his guitar work with Booker T & The MG's, once did a session backing up Albert King and for one tune, Albert had his low E string tuned down to C, which you seldom ever see and he used strings that were under the category of light top and heavy bottom, and the only way that kind of tuning works well is if the guitarist uses extremely heavy strings of at least 0.48 or more.
I agree with Greg Heumann 100% that if you're serious about playing harp, quit whining and get all 12 keys so you're ALWAYS prepared because, to be brutally truthful here, is that if you're backing up a singer, guitar player, whatever, it is YOUR JOB to adjust to them and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!!!! There have been plenty of times where I had to back those using non standard keys and having them in all 12 keys allowed me to be prepared for anything.
One little trick I learned about different standard tunings is that if someone has their instruments tuned to what's called Baroque tuning, meaning that the standard pitch they're tuned to is A415, all it really comes down to is that the tuning is actually 1/2 step flatter and so rather than have an entire set of harps tuned that way, you just get one tuned 1/2 step flat. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@srussell, Not what I said, at all. And (again), having all the harps is a good thing. Actually, it's professional. Cleaning up after donkeys gets a little old, but oh well. Donkey is my kids term for crappy harp players. Yesterday she said I was a blue jay. I asked her why and she said it was because I was arrogant.
Try bending four strings at the same time 2 whole steps like Albert King using standard tuning.
Albert was a big guy with big hands, but even he knew it was easier to tune down.
Besides he had his strings reversed and he bent differently than other players.
Tuning down a half step can sound sweeter in some cases. Try playing George Smith's Telephone Blues using an A harp and then try it using an A flat harp. The version that starts with 1D 2D bent a whole step to 1-4 draw.
I would expect baroque tuning to be popular with cash strapped musicians! ...
I was going to tune all my harps down a half step, but decided it would be easier to by a new Gb and throw out my F!....
On a more serious note, there are occasions when switching harp keys doesn't work, although they are fewer now that electronic tuners are readily available. I can think of three amateur situations I have personal experience with (I have never run in pro circles but I would not expect these things to occur with pros).
1) Casual guitar player invites you to play along, you discover that the guitar is in relative tune and sounds good to itself, but it is a quarter step flat and no harp works with it.
2) Similar situation but with a piano. This is quite common as most piano tuners doing home pianos just bring them into relative tune. They tend to drift flat over time. To have one that has been drifting down for a while brought up to A 440 can be a bit expensive.
3) Trumpet players tuning slide is stuck so the band has to tune to the trumpet. Fortunately, the harmonica player also has a trombone with him.
