Martin
746 posts
Dec 09, 2014
4:24 PM
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Generally I´m not wild about acoustic harmonica, but I´ve been asked to do a Jimmy Reed style solo, high end harp, un-cupped.
We did one take a couple of weeks ago and it sounds awful. Really thin and no authority. Unusable.
The recording engineer is not remarkably proficient, and for the next session I thought I´d bring something along by way of pointers, so I started to look for the "Taming of the shrill" article from some years ago, but it´s been removed from the net.
The other links I could find was too general to be of value.
Is there something technological that can be easily transmitted and that I can at least hope to understand; or is it simply, just record as you´d do with vox humana?
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jbone
1823 posts
Dec 09, 2014
6:34 PM
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I know when I do that kind of playing- which I do sometimes out live- I stay back from the mic. Are you using a low harp like A or G? If Jimmy could pull it off back in the day then you can as well.
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kudzurunner
5177 posts
Dec 09, 2014
7:07 PM
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I'm no expert on this, but you need a limiter of some sort, something that will smooth off the edges. A tube preamp will help. Ask your recording engineer if he's got a tube preamp.
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GMaj7
563 posts
Dec 09, 2014
8:17 PM
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This is way out of my level of expertise, as well.
However, it is possible the harp is tuned a little sharp for the recording.
If you are at 442-443 and your other instruments are at 440, it will be somewhat noticeable.
I think the other suggestions have greater impact, but your tuning could, as well. Not much you can really do except tune the harp down some or see if your guitar man will bump up a notch (Not likely..)
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Martic
120 posts
Dec 09, 2014
9:21 PM
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I think it's important to leave some space between you and the microphone, so you can give some "air" to the sound. If you can choose, use a condenser mic.
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Kingley
3770 posts
Dec 09, 2014
10:10 PM
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Use the best mic in the studio. Ribbon or valve mics are usually the best ones. Play about six to eight inches off the mic.
Bear in mind that the top end of the harp is shrill and trebly by nature. You're not going to get a full fat sound up top.
Listen/take with you some Jimmy Reed 1st position stuff. That can act as a benchmark fro both you and the sound engineer. Also bear in mind that you're not likely to sound just like Jimmy.
Play as softly as you can. The harder you blow the thinner it's likely to sound. Other than that use the EQ on the desk post recording to "fatten" up the sound.
Before you go into the studio record yourself at home playing that style to hear what you really sound like. Your phone should be fine for doing that recording.
The only other thing I'd add is to have realistic expectations of what it's going to sound like. The players acoustic tone and skill level and the recording engineer's skill are the deal breaker in all cases when recording.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 09, 2014 10:11 PM
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Martin
747 posts
Dec 10, 2014
5:33 AM
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Thank you guys, some good tips here.
I will check for a tube pre-amp, but my hopes are realistic: this is a fairly low budget operation.
@Kingley: Not easy for you to know but the guy in charge is a Jimmy Reed nut, owns his entire output etc. His recording skills though ...
As for sounding "just like Jimmy" I can settle for that, but fear I´m big-headed enough to actually want to sound a bit better: Jimmy had quite a few limitations as an instrumentalist.
The good thing here is that the backing is kinda all right: I´ve heard hundreds of blues bands messing things up in the Jimmy R department (and those British bands in the 60´s were horrible) but here things move nice and slow and it´s a fairly decent recreation of that elusive front porch swing, even down to those Remo Biondi pizzicatos.
Many thanks to you all for the input.
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Little roger
46 posts
Dec 10, 2014
6:36 AM
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Actually I imagine Kingley was saying you are not going to sound as GOOD as Jimmy Reed, not the other way round. If you can anywhere close to sounding like him, let alone the whole band sound, respect.
Jimmy Reed 1st position high stuff sounds easy but is actually not.
If your acoustic tone is good enough, a decent mic, keep away from it a bit and make sure your sound guy is up to par.
Good luck.
R
Last Edited by Little roger on Dec 10, 2014 6:39 AM
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Kingley
3771 posts
Dec 10, 2014
9:18 AM
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Little roger is right. That's exactly what I meant.
Jimmy Reed's playing sounds deceptively simple to the casual listener. Once you delve into though the genius in his playing becomes very clear, very quickly.
Like I say the best way to be realistic about what it can sound like is to record yourself playing the stuff you're being hired to play at home. Just use the mic on your phone and you'll hear what your acoustic sound is like to the listener. Then just try to get as close to that as you can in the studio and EQ it until you like what you hear.
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barbequebob
2783 posts
Dec 10, 2014
10:19 AM
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The thing about Jimmy Reed's playing isn't just about 1st position stuff alone, but something in the mix most players tend to ignore, and that's the use of space and a very important point that I'm putting in all caps to emphasize its importance, and that's LET THE GROOVE DRIVE THE MUSIC AND DON'T FORCE THE GROOVE WITH YOUR PLAYING EVER!!!! It's the art of having the ability to drive while making a groove danceable by UNDERPLAYING rather than overplaying and at times boring pyrotechnics.
The value of playing lazy and understated cannot be ignored and the groove is relaxed and far behind the beat. Too many players tend to play the upper register far too hard and that's exactly NOT what he's doing at all and if you tried to play his solo on Found Love, where he holds out the 9 blow for nearly 8 bars, if you played as hard as the average player tends to do, you'd be lucky to hold it for 1-1/2 to 2 bars at best (if you're damned lucky).
You definitely do NOT want to eat that mic EVER. Acoustic tone is something too many players, ESPECIALLY the gear heads tend to dismiss and it's absolutely vital for ANY kind of harp playing, period.
As far as a mic in the studio, under zero circumstances do you want to use condenser types because they have a tendency to get way too trebly in a hurry and would recommend either the classic dynamic mics like an SM57 or SM58 or a ribbon cartridge mic because they emphasize the middle more and will be much more warm sounding.
BTW, many of those early Jimmy Reed recordings, much like many blues recordings in the 40's and 50's, they were done with what's known as the ambient micing technique where you have vocal mics, but the instrumentation had mics directly on the amps, plus a mic in the front, a mic in the middle and a mic way in the back of the room. This is real old school and you'd be surprised at the number of recording engineers these days have no clue about it and in a recording session I was involved in years ago where my harp was overdubbed on it, I actually had to teach the engineer how to do it. The ambient sound is more like the way people's ears actually hear the music and is always really warm sounding.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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JInx
942 posts
Dec 10, 2014
10:37 AM
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"LET THE GROOVE DRIVE THE MUSIC AND DON'T FORCE THE GROOVE WITH YOUR PLAYING EVER!!!! It's the art of having the ability to drive while making a groove danceable by UNDERPLAYING rather than overplaying and at times boring pyrotechnics."-BBQBOB
I agree with you 100%. But, doesn't that aesthetic directly oppose the ethos of this entire "modern blues" forum. Our top players blow extremely hard and favor deploying all out pyrotechnics at nearly every turn. I'm thinking Ricci and Gussow.
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barbequebob
2784 posts
Dec 10, 2014
11:15 AM
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@Jinx -- I think you'd be surprised at the number of "modern blues" players who do NOT play hard all the time, plus also know when and where to hold back and talking about it often times is a lot easier than actually doing it. You're think that all modern players tend to always play extremely hard is much more myth than reality. Besides, if you really wanted to play fast but NOT sloppy, you absolutely can NOT do that while playing really hard all the time. Try playing Charlie McCoy's super uptempo version of the Orange Blossom Special playing really hard and you'll find out otherwise. Besides, playing too hard all the time puts extremely severe limitations on what you can do just on the durability issue alone, let alone, tone, tone control and dynamics. Also the overblow technique doesn't work well if you're playing way too hard, even more so on harp set up for the technique.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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KingoBad
1571 posts
Dec 10, 2014
1:42 PM
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If you think Jason plays hard, you are mistaken...
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Danny
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slaphappy
51 posts
Dec 10, 2014
2:06 PM
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James Cotton blew extremely hard. He has this "woof" in his sound that I think comes from that but maybe not so much on his 1st pos. high end stuff. Thread drift..
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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waltertore
2768 posts
Dec 10, 2014
2:28 PM
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I pretty much record exclusively acoustic and 98% of it on a harp rack. I sing and blow harp through the same mic. The first thing is acoustic tone hides nothing. Amped tone will hide a whole lot more of poor tone than acoustic. The acoustic sound don't lie. I have pro recording gear and record my music about 15-40 hours a week and it has taken years to figure out how to balance the shrill of the harp with the tone of my voice. There are near infinite ways to approach the problem. the first thing one needs is a really good mic, preamp, compressor, eq's, mastering chain. People think they can capture great sounds with little to no experience. The home recording/hand held camera/phone craze has produced the most horrible sonically sounding music in the history of recording. The key, if one is not versed in all this stuff deeply, is to get with a quality engineer who works with quality gear. If you are not happy with the results it is time to look elsewhere. Good luck. Walter
here is a recording from several years ago. I feel my recording skills have improved much since then but the harp tone is pure acoustic.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
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barbequebob
2786 posts
Dec 11, 2014
10:49 AM
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@slaphappy -- Unfortunately, the average player tends to play MUCH harder than Cotton actually does and as a result of that, their tone is usually thin, tinny and extremely harsh.
@waltertore -- Acoustic hides nothing is absolutely true, but as far as gear hiding crappy acoustic tone, unfortunately, the cold, hard truth is that gear really can't do that and a player with great acoustic tone is ALWAYS gonna have great amplified tone. I love gigs where I can play acoustic harp whenever I can get them for three reasons:
a.) No gear for me to carry around and
b.) just like waltertore says, there's no place for crappy tone to hide anywhere, and
3.) it gives my ears a break from the volume
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
2258 posts
Dec 11, 2014
11:54 AM
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James Cotton is one exception to the rule of breathing harmonica. He blows hard and it is really part of his individual sound.
When a student comes to me to learn to play diatonic and blues, breathing the harmonica is paramount. If the student tells me he wants to play like James Cotton, I tell him that I'm not the right teacher for him.
Like BBQBOB sez, many modern blues players don't play hard...Carlos del Junco, Paul deLay and any other great player with the letters "d" "e" and "l" in the middle of their name.
The Iceman
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barbequebob
2787 posts
Dec 11, 2014
12:26 PM
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The toughest thing to learn about Cotton's sound is learning how to slow the speed of the throat vibrato considerably and if you're playing really hard, it's almost impossible to keep under control and trust me, it took me 3-6 months to learn how to do that and what makes it seem like he's playing really hard is that he is playing 100% FULLY RELAXED, which is often times totally opposite of what many harp players tend to do and so it's like how an opera singer is trained to do, which is referred to as singing with a very open throat, which allows greater projection while using the least amount of breath force necessary, which explains why opera singers have seemingly so much volume and rarely ever need a mic to project their sound.
Damn, this thread should remain on the Jimmy Reed approach rather than getting hijacked into what's it's been hijacked into.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Martin
748 posts
Dec 11, 2014
5:46 PM
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Good points all over here, but:
As much as I like, almost worship, the Jimmy Reed sound and that particular lazy beat (Eddie Taylor should be credited) I do not think he´s a particularly good harmonica player.
He´s got two or three riffs (2nd pos and 1 pos) and he makes them work, but there are/were hundreds of harmonica players that could do them. No big deal.
The artistry is in the context -- and the enormous authority they had in putting out that beat.
The harmonica playing is great as it is but he´s not really impressive.
The records, though ...
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waltertore
2770 posts
Dec 16, 2014
4:05 PM
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Martin: Here is a song that is Jimmy Reed inspired from a couple days ago. The harp is on a rack and it is quite obvious the tone difference from the video I posted above where I played the guitar and drums on my feet at the same time and then went back and overdubbed the vocal/harp at the same time/same mic holding the harp in my hands. The effects one can get with hands is incredible and the rack is a necessary compromise for me due to everything is done live. To be honest the fast flashy stuff is not hard to play once you are at it for a good many years. The flashy stuff/amped stuff is what most people are impressed with. I find it very limiting because you shoot your load a few seconds into things and there is nothing left to the imagination. Fast playing is the other thing that impresses most. Again, speed is much easier to pull off and hold people than slow/sparse playing. People are use to a wall of sound and when they don't get it most leave. I feel this phenomenon is due to musicians fear of losing crowds and over the years has conditioned the audience to fast,fast,and faster. Space is the hardest thing to make meaningful and Jimmy Reed is a king at space. The sparse, simple, and deep, is the hardest sound to play IMO. I am using an AKGC414 condenser mic for the vocals/harp. Everything you hear is done live and all instruments/vocal are within a couple feet of each other. I have some nice tube preamps/compressors that take the brittle off the condenser mic but getting a good balance between the air/highs of the vocals and taming the shrill of the harp is about the hardest combination to record out there. Most studios will have you sing in mic A and then turn to mic B for the harp. I bet anything Jimmy Reed recorded the harp/vocal on the same mic. The EV RE20 mic is a good one too because it cuts the highs more than most mics. It is a dynamic mic so needs no phantom power and can be had for a couple hundred dollars used. Stevie Wonder uses it as well as many radio/TV talk shows. One more thing. I don't have a bass in my 1 man band set up. It is amazing how thin a recording instantly sounds if the engineer removes the bass guitar. That is another piece of the puzzle for making a Jimmy Reed harp sound deep. Try turning the bass down on your stereo and see how thin that record you know has a deep sound ends up. If you have no bottom the top sounds twice as shrill. I play with my fingers so the bass strings get a lot of work on my guitar but never will replace a true bass guitar. How you spread the sound field is another critical part to a good sound. I could write thousands of pages on the variables to getting a warm sound........ Walter
rock me not to hard
here is another good exercise-try to mix your harp in with a classic recording to the point it sounds like you were in the studio at the time it was recorded.
in the studio with muddy
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Dec 17, 2014 5:16 AM
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barbequebob
2793 posts
Dec 17, 2014
10:26 AM
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@waltertore -- I am in full agreement with you that what makes getting the Jimmy Reed sound and feel is that the harp is on a rack and then what's harder is the use of space and if you're a player that has to play every note in every space possible, learning how to use space is essentially hell on wheels and will be a bitch to get down.
I know for a fact that because the harp was on a rack, Jimmy's harp and vocals were always recorded on the very same mic and too many players tend to forget that Jimmy's also playing guitar at the same time as well.
Walter, your first recorded example nails the basics of the Jimmy Reed sound, which means being sparse, driving, yet lazy and allow the groove to drive the music rather than a more rock like approach of using the lead to force the groove. It ain't just harp players who have problems with this groove and it comes down to the old KISS theory of operation AKA keep it simple, stupid. The minute you make it even a tiny bit more complex, it flushes the whole thing right down the toilet in a NY minute.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
2771 posts
Dec 17, 2014
10:56 AM
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Thanks Bob! Since R&R hit it big the wall of sound started and it has transferred to most all American roots music. Most blues I listen to today are way to busy. That dragging beat is powerful. I am a simple player so I am not tempted to busy things up. I can't tell you how many times a guy would sit in with my band and start out real simple but eventually that frantic crazy million notes came out. It must be hard to know too much and try to play blues. I love hanging back on the beat and because of that have major problems playing with others. I feel like I am being pushed all the time. The Jimmy Reed sound and much of the old guys sound was based on working off peoples dance moves and that hanging back on the beat even on fast songs makes for some very powerfully sensual dancing. Todays players are more based on the beat and ahead of the beat. Jimmy Reed became a legend with one beat in his arsenal. Today a band feels to make it they have to play a different beat each song and a slow one can never be followed by another slow one.
Sinatra was always behind the beat. That caught my ears as a baby and I never knew why I loved him so much till I started playing and realized I dig that behind the beat. I find playing the drums/guitar/harp/vocals all at once frees me from the uptight/busy beats of playing with others. People can take me or leave me. I would much rather die never doing another gig again than playing the frenzied stuff or classic note for note stuff of the old songs. The old guys never asked me to play a certain way. I was given creative freedom but the youngsters that are doing the classic blues tend to have to have all the gear and riffs exact to the era. Most of the old blues guys played whatever was on hand and many I played with never owned a guitar or harp amp and used whatever was lying around. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Dec 17, 2014 11:00 AM
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barbequebob
2795 posts
Dec 17, 2014
11:42 AM
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Your observation of Frank Sinatra is dead on because playing or singing behind the beat, and in the case of the sound of early to mid 50's Chicago blues, including Jimmy Reed, which is WAY behind the beat, made Sinatra's sound both very jazzy as well as very bluesy at the same time. Finding musicians who understand the concept of behind the beat and how far behind the beat is very difficult indeed. Most musicians who like to play notes by the truckload and can't use space particularly well often have a tendency to play ahead of the beat and too often, the bluesiness of the sound goes right down the toilet whenever they're doing that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Martin
753 posts
Dec 17, 2014
11:58 AM
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@Walter: A really great take on the Jimmy Reed slow shuffling thing! Much impressed.
I´m trying to understand a thing or two about those tube preamps since it appears as if I could use one in the studio, but this world is not for us technophobes.
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waltertore
2772 posts
Dec 17, 2014
12:19 PM
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Bob: I just wanted to be a harp player and play 7 nights a week but soon hit the wall of difficulties in putting together/maintaining a band. That started me to sing because it got me more gigs, then I couldn't explain the guitar I wanted to hear to guitarists so I taught myself the guitar and that got more gigs, then I couldn't explain to drummers the beat I wanted so I taught myself the drums... This process unfolded naturally over a 40 year period and started when I got real lucky to meet/hang with/play with Wilbert Harrison at the very beginning of my musical career. He was doing the 1 man band thing at that time an I learned the gist of it from him. Now 40 odd years later I don't need anyone to make my music or record it and I can play 7 days a week all day if I want. That was my goal going into music- to simply play it whenever I felt the urge. I have reached the greatest artistic freedom I could wish for and I realize that playing gigs is not that as big a part of it as I always thought it was. It was the biggest part for most of my playing days but now it has faded to a nice thing but of no real importance anymore. Again music has cared for my soul because good live music gigs today are so rare that finding as many as I needed 25 years ago would be impossible to find. The main thing is to have the tools and freedom to create when the urge hits.
Martin: When I started out with recording it was all big studios, tape, and overwhelming. Getting a good tube preamp will not fix your problems. You need a complete chain of gear that compliments each other and the right mics. On top of that you need an engineer that has the skills to capture the sound you are after. Most people can't explain their sound to engineers and good engineers have their own takes on how things should be done and you have to accept that or get someone else. When I am into something I go all the way so take what I say with that in mind. A basic demo recording is easy to found with the home recording scene of today. I aim for great sounding recordings and I get pieces of that now and again but still have many years ahead of me to get there. I am driven to capture my sound the way it sounds and believe it or not that is harder than you would think.
Most people don't want to invest the time to learn how to make good recordings. We live in a quick fix world and most want to call themselves experts in a very short time. I prefer to learn something deep no matter how long it takes. Now I have my own studio, my 1 man band on my feet and hands, and can create my music anytime I want. I have long given up being dependent on others because when I need to play I need to play. It is part of me staying sane and am thankful I put in the long hours to learn how to make decent recordings. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Dec 18, 2014 5:22 AM
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