J_Bark
23 posts
Nov 02, 2014
12:12 PM
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I have a couple guys who come over and jam/rehearse a couple times a month. We have been working on Texas Flood in the style of SRV. But SRV plays in a weird tuning, 1/2 step sharp.
So our guitar player wants to play it as it sounds on the record, which is key of Ab, our sax guy likes that because it's a good key for his sax.
So, my choices are to:
a. lay down the harp on this one and just sing
b. Buy a harp in C#, which I might not use otherwise
c. Find another harp that I can use to get by and play a bit
d. Play rhythm guitar, which I am more a beginner at than harp
So, can anyone offer me an option for another harp, and give me the relevant position info? Being a very new player I play blues exclusively in 2nd, I play a few folk tunes in 1st. If you suggest that I could play a D harp in XX position then where do I find a summary of the different positions?
Or, should I just sing?
Cheers
Jerry
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Kingley
3757 posts
Nov 02, 2014
12:27 PM
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My suggestion would be to just sing. It's nice to put the harmonica down now and then. It doesn't need to be on every song and has more impact when it's not used constantly. I'd let this tune be a guitar feature tune and have the sax sit it out too if it were my band. Watching any band where they go round and round playing solos by every lead instrument in every song gets mighty tedious for the listener. If however you have numbers that feature certain instruments I find it makes much more impact with an audience than the endless solo scenario. Of course that's just my opinion. I'm sure many people will disagree with me.
Last Edited by Kingley on Nov 02, 2014 12:28 PM
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Pistolcat
738 posts
Nov 02, 2014
1:17 PM
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All of the options above is ok I guess. If you are playing a lot of SRV stuff you're going to be marginalised as a harp player, man! Or go and buy a Db harp (I haven't seen any labeled C#) you'll have Ab in second and Eb in third which will come in handy with all that SRV stuff :)
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Nov 02, 2014 2:18 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1039 posts
Nov 02, 2014
1:56 PM
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OK let me see if we are talking the same thing, because I have never played Texas Flood. So I went to youtube and found this:
If this is correct, It's in F# (Gd) not Ad
In F# (the video above) I was able to grab an E and do 3rd position or a D and do 5th position
If your guitar player wants to do Ad, grab an E harp and do 5th position licks. If you want hints on 5th position, just ask.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Nov 02, 2014 1:56 PM
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dougharps
763 posts
Nov 02, 2014
1:57 PM
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My understanding was that SRV used heavy strings and tuned DOWN 1/2 step. Sometimes this is done for vocal range issues.
If you are going to play with people who do this on a regular basis, it is time to invest in the harps to cover all the keys you might encounter.
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Doug S.
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J_Bark
24 posts
Nov 02, 2014
4:19 PM
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Thanks for all the replies to this.
Jim, that is the song in question. I am sure that you and Doug are right in regard to the key, I was going from memory of what happened last week.
We don't play other songs in odd keys, the guitar player just wanted to stick to the original recording's key. maybe he is not sure on transposing it.
In any case, generally they accommodate me and let me choose a key that I feel stronger singing in. We mostly play in G, A or E. With G and A being best for my (attempts at) singing.
I have a D harp so I can try out the 5th position, found an old post of Jim R's that gives a lot of info on that.
Thanks
Jerry
PS> Kingley, I really appreciate your perspective of take a break and not try to feature everyone every song, that may be the best answer in the end.
Last Edited by J_Bark on Nov 02, 2014 4:22 PM
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davew
25 posts
Nov 02, 2014
6:13 PM
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Doughharps is correct, SRV tuned down 1/2 step. The guitar player should realize that if this song is in A flat, then Stevie is playing in "A", this is an "open key" for a guitar player, much easier than A flat.
But you have a horn player, they like A flat.
My suggestion is if you are going to be playing with horns,
then you should probably buy some flat key harps,D flat,
E flat, B flat.
Last Edited by davew on Nov 02, 2014 6:22 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1043 posts
Nov 03, 2014
5:24 AM
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@davew
I agree with what you say, but this brings up another subject: what determines the key you choose?
If it's ease of play for guitar players, songs based on E and A (or Ed and Ad for guitars tuned down 1/2 step) make sense.
But if the goal is to "play it like the recording" then in THIS CASE the key is F#.
I always say, anybody that refuses to shift the key of a song by 1/2 step to accommodate the other musicians is either very amateur or a very demanding professional
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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dougharps
764 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:17 AM
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If this is the only song that your group plays in the less used keys that might require a B, F#, Db, or Ab harp, then the guitar player (who has most likely not tuned down a half step) should just play it in the same fingering, 1/2 step up from the recording. No big deal...
If he plays tuned down on many songs, then you will need the harps. I would suggest at least getting inexpensive harps in the keys listed above. Watch for bargains on those keys on Amazon and other online vendors. You should already have the other 8 keys as they are often used in Rhythm & Blues music. A full set of harps is a good investment of gig money.
On my 1st studio gig I had recently bought those 4 keys to complete my set. I had been recommended to the studio by musicians I had played with at live gigs. When I arrived at the studio I learned that the guitar player was one who played everything tuned down 1/2 step. If I had told the studio I couldn't do it because I didn't have those harps, I would not have been taken seriously, and would not have been called back for other later recording sessions, such as on 56 Hope Road's "All Points Connect" debut album.
Ultimately you will need all 12 keys if you are going to play with musicians and don't want to opt out of songs. I looked for bargains on harps, then later replaced them with better harps as I earned gig money. It is satisfying to be able to say that you can play in whatever key the singer or guitar player chooses. Many musicians are surprised when I say this. They expect limitations from harp players. I am glad to challenge the stereotype.
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Doug S.
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chromaticblues
1614 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:27 AM
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Oh I see I'm late to the party.
Yes Doug is correct. I've played with SRV heads.
I remember using the Ab and Db a lot.
I may have used other harps, but don't recall.
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chromaticblues
1615 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:39 AM
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Dougharps last post was also very good.
To break it down a little further.
If your doing one SRV song then your guitar player probably never tunes down a half step.
It would be easier for both of you to do it in "G".
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Rgsccr
295 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:41 AM
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The band I am in was doing "Cold Shot" in Ab for a while. We stopped doing it as we really try to stay with Chicago blues. When we first explored it, the other band members wanted to switch keys but I prevailed on them to keep it in Ab so I finally use my Db (C#) harp. We were pleasantly surprised how cool the whole song sounded in that key - sort of took the edge off things. Since then I have used the Db on a couple of other songs. Same with my Ab, Low F etc. If it's affordable, it really is nice to have all the keys available.
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hvyj
2573 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:43 AM
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Db is a useful harp. Besides Ab in 2d position, it allows you to play Fm in 5th position, Eb in 3d position and Bbm in 4th position. Pretty handy to have. I most often use mine for Fm. But I also use it to play in Eb on "So What" when it gets called at jams.
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Meaux Jeaux
12 posts
Nov 03, 2014
10:31 AM
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I agree with Kingley, if Stevie were alive today and
heard all the bad covers of his tunes it would kill him. Stick with the singing and try and do it justice.
As for tuning down, why not tune down a full step.
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dougharps
765 posts
Nov 03, 2014
11:53 AM
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I have played with guys that do that... tune down a whole step. It sure gets tricky reading the key from their chords fingerings when you try to figure out the whole step down and however many half steps up that the capo is clamped.
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Doug S.
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barbequebob
2747 posts
Nov 03, 2014
1:40 PM
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@Rgsccr -- Actually, the way SRV plays WC Clark's Cold Shot is essentially in the style of Chicago bluesman Magic Sam (part of the sound of West Side Chicago blues that's also essential listening) but played with the guitar thru a Leslie unit.
I always keep all 12 keys with me to be prepared for anything. If you worked with someone much more BB King influenced, Db is a very common key for those sort of tunes.
What SRV does is often called by some guitarists as drop tuning and one of the main reasons for it is because the guitar player may be using extremely heavy strings plus has a really high action the guitar and so doing it this way eases the tension on the neck.
Since I play a little bit of guitar, it's no big deal for me to adapt. Besides, the guitar tone whenever you use a tuning different than the norm of E-A-D-G-B-E (AKA standard tuning) will often take on a different tonality and personality).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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J_Bark
25 posts
Nov 03, 2014
3:07 PM
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I really appreciate the discussion that my seemingly simple question has generated. a sincere thanks, I am enjoying and learning from it.
I do want to respond to part of Jim's post just above, in particular:
"But if the goal is to "play it like the recording" then in THIS CASE the key is F#.
I always say, anybody that refuses to shift the key of a song by 1/2 step to accommodate the other musicians is either very amateur or a very demanding professional"
This "band" is a group of guys of varying musical experience, me the least having started to play harp in March of this year. The guitar player is a young guy about 21 years old who play pretty well, but has some trouble transposing tougher material. I think he prefers to play it they way it sounds because he could not easily change to a better key for harp. No worries there as we are all getting together for one purpose: to LEARN to play blues better. It's all good.
This is the first song he has asked to not change the key of to make it fit the group better. No harm, no foul.
MeauX: that is the decision that I arrived at, let him play it the way he knows it and I'll do my best to sing it the best I can and keep improving on my vocal.
To BBQ Bob, thanks for mentioning Magic Sam, I'll look up some of his stuff!
Cheers all,
Jerry
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Rgsccr
296 posts
Nov 03, 2014
6:43 PM
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Barbeque Bob - I hadn't made that connection with Magic Sam. I love his music and we do play "Easy, Baby." I'll have to listen to "Cold Shot" more carefully..
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barbequebob
2748 posts
Nov 04, 2014
9:32 AM
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The Magic Sam thing is how the major/minor thing gets fuzzed and fudged. For example, if you listen to the intro as well as the the way he's chording/double stopping on the I chord, you'll usually think he's playing in a minor key until you get to the IV chord, and then it becomes major. He essentially borrowed that from an old Lowell Fulson tune that was recorded for Chess in the 50's.
@J Bark -- I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you having been both a frontman as well as a sideman from a pro standpoint and if you're a sideman, it's YOUR job to adapt to the front person and NOT the other way around, so you either need to keep harps in other keys on hand or learn other positions besides 1st and 2nd, plain and simple.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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