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Transcription: Others and your own
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Chris L
75 posts
Oct 28, 2014
11:56 PM
I'll start with a very broad definition of "transcription" as I am using it here: :"Learning another musician's work by either writing it (tab or standard notation) or memorization".
I could not have learned my first riffs and songs without tabs created by others so I am extremely grateful to David McKelvy, Glen Weiser, David Barrett, Paul Lassey and Hakan Ehn for sharing the fruit of many hours of painstaking labour!
Only recently did it really hit me that their tabulations did not mysteriously appear out of some miracle of hearing akin to a divine dictation process, but were in fact the fruit of their own learning process as they studied in depth the recordings of musicians they loved. (Granted, I'm sure they all have excellent pitch perception, maybe far better than mine.) I believe, and correct me if I am wrong, that they created these tabs/transcriptions first for themselves and their musical development, and only subsequently shared them with the others as a gift.
My first attempt at transcribing was a couple of years ago: John Mayall's "Sonny Boy Blow" , and I probably achieved a half decent fake of it in a couple of hours. Mayall painted with a broad brush back then. My second attempt was Pat Ramsay's 3 verse solo in "Too Many Drivers". (Thanks Hakan for kick starting me with the tabbed intro!) After three months with slow downer, breaking it down to 3 or 6 note phrases, and god knows what else I am still not sure I have it right and am absolutely certain I cannot play it at speed, BUT, and here is my point, now when improvising along with a shuffle, not only do echoes of those licks creep in
but so do many other licks using the same muscle memory and improvisational techniques and concepts. Plus my ear is now more adept at catching subtleties of time as well as intonation. Those hours of concentrated listening and transcribing (tab below and measured time above) were some of the most fruitful learning experiences ever!
I would just like to encourage, especially newer/intermediate harp players who have a handful of songs under their belt from tabs written out by others, take the plunge into transcribing for yourself! It may take you months to work out one song, but it will be worth it!
I think I recall Frank arguing somewhere that the point of copying the masters is not to make a copy of the masters but rather to make you a better unique musician.(or something to that effect, I'm paraphrasing!) I would have to say right on!

Last Edited by Chris L on Oct 29, 2014 12:00 AM
Shaganappi
118 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:04 AM
Well said Chris. We are all at different stages. Harp tab that you can find can be invaluable when you cannot figure it out easily yourself. And as you emphasized, tab written out by yourself is even much more worthwhile. I learned more by tabbing out complex pieces than by any other manner. But to progress to the point of actually internalizing it and memorizing it or better yet to hardwire it to your brain without even going to the stage of tabbing would be considered as gold.

I am far from the last stages as I have moved on to too many other projects of life and other poor excuses of whatever, but I recognize the value of hardwiring, particularly after listening to what Carlos del Junco teaches (tabbing is not high on his list to put it mildly). My issue with learning without tab is that it is difficult when one is just a weekend warrior (or worse) type of player.

But I strongly believe that tab would be much more valuable if we were to incorporate rhythm in an easy and simple fashion, a point that seems to be resisted by many players.
barbequebob
2742 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:33 AM
Unfortunately, rhythm and groove isn't really something tab is good for at all, plus another shortcoming is how long a particular note/notes are supposed to be held out, and then you also will encounter another really huge problem I've found quite common with tabs and that's when the tab transcription has truckloads of mistakes in them, so being totally reliant on tabs is NOT a good idea at all and they'll never be a goods substitute for developing good listening skills and far too often, players attempting to teach themselves how to play far too often have a tendency to rely too heavily on them rather than developing good listening skills, which is EQUALLY important for them develop as are good playing skills because, truth be told, those two go hand in hand and so I myself agree with Carlos del Junco when it comes to tabbing.

One thing that's available now to all of you that I would've loved to have had when I started out back in the 70's were phrase sampling devices like the SloMo, which samples phrases of your choice and then slows the tempo down anywhere you want it to and still remain in key and the same pitch, which helps break everything down in ways that tabs are just so totally inadequate for doing and it matters little if you want to be a weekend warrior or not. Back when I started, the only thing close to that was with vinyl and what you did was to turn the record speed down, like from 45 to 33-1/3, or 33-1/3 to 16 (if you had that), but the problem was that everything was an entire octave lower in the process.

Things like that are still available and it should be something you NEED to consider.

The other BIG things after that, and too often players who are teaching themselves how to play tend to neglect the importance of learning time and some very basic music theory (tho sight reading skills can be helpful to learn, but that's far down the list of need unless you're intending at some point to play jazz, classical music, or become a full time studio session pro, and that's when sight reading skills becomes MANDATORY). The lack of knowledge of time and theory are things harp players too often have a tendency to fulfill negative stereotypes and it's their own fault every time they do that and they wind up getting dissed and too often deserve to get that because they too often have the wrong headed attitude that just learning to riff is enough to make themselves into a great musician, but just riffing ability alone is just not enough.

It all comes down to teaching yourself to be VERY ANAL about EVERY minute detail of what's happening and remembering something a pro told me years ago and that there is NO SUCH THING as a detail that's too small or too unimportant to pay attention to.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
dougharps
759 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:42 AM
Does anyone have a copy of the tabs that Sonny Boy I & II, Big Walter, and Little Walter relied upon as a basis for their playing?
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Doug S.
Fil
3 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:48 AM
New guy question, Bob. With regard to learning time and some basic music theory, what elements of time and theory are you referring to?
Thanks.
Shaganappi
119 posts
Oct 29, 2014
10:53 AM
"VERY ANAL … EVERY … detail …small…" This sentiment tends to suck the fun out of weekend warrior playing. Not everyone has the time to be a pro. Although I appreciate amazing pro stuff, "playing" can be seen as different than "working". Just sayin'.

And as to "how long a particular note/notes are supposed to be held out, well "BeatTab includes that in the tab in a simple manner for all but the most complicated pieces (of which newbies and more are not as interested in).
barbequebob
2743 posts
Oct 29, 2014
11:59 AM
@Fil -- Time, IMO, should be learned first before theory because that's the first thing harp players fail to learn and one of the first things you HAVE to get into the habit of doing is to tap your feet to the tempo of the tune, but the tap has to be even at all times, and for every beginning player, it does take some hard work, and it doesn't matter if you're a pro or not. At some point in time, you'll want to get a metronome to work with, but you can learn without it if you're surrounded by really good musicians if they're able to teach you (and some musicians just can't teach, period) and some may seem like they're being hard on you, but if you don't take it personally, they can help you out a lot.

Basic theory, being scales, chords, harmonies, takes some practice but once you learn them, if you make a mistake (and EVERY musician, pro or not, is going to make mistakes at some point), you can work your way out of them, plus on top of that, learning where every single not on your instrument is, and too often that's something many players never really learn.

@Shaganappi -- Since you're looking at tabs trying to learn things, aren't you being anal about details in order to learn things?? Think about it!!! It doesn't matter if you want to be the weekend warrior having fun at a jam session or a pro, because what do think you're doing when you're trying to find tabs or do transcriptions of tunes using tabs yourself??? The answer, you yourself are getting more anal about details.

Now the how long to hold part, beat tabs may seemingly be telling you, but it is not telling much about time, and it is important to learn that.

Is this all gonna be huge crash courses?? Only if you intend to do it that way, and learning anything is always gonna be like the old saying, "Rome wan't built in a day," and so you do have to keep at it, but how fast depends on you and how motivated you are, regardless of whether you want to be a pro or not.

@dougharps -- Back in the days of both Walters and Sonny Boys, tabs did not exist and so blues, like folk and old timey musics, were an oral tradition for the most part, and they all did tons of careful listening, be it whenever they saw an artist live or listened to a recording and they also never stopped experimenting.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Shaganappi
120 posts
Oct 29, 2014
12:34 PM
Bob, have you looked at "Beat Tab" ?
Beat Tab - Harmonica Rhythm Notation
Time is shown - and rather detailed at that.

Just saying that there are times to be detailed (I have certainly had those times).
In fact, I probably have had Waaay too many of those times. But as you said, that is frequently the way you learn - by getting down to detail.
… but there are times to just take some simple tab and "play" some.
Particular when you are just learning and want to have fun and really relax.
We are both right. It depends on the time you have in your day or have left in your life.

Last Edited by Shaganappi on Oct 29, 2014 12:51 PM
dougharps
760 posts
Oct 29, 2014
2:08 PM
@barbequebob
I agree with you about rhythm and groove being central to learning the music.

Also, I REALLY liked your reply to my question above.

However, I don't see why the existence of tabs should counter your excellent statement that:

"blues, like folk and old timey musics, were an oral tradition for the most part, and they all did tons of careful listening, be it whenever they saw an artist live or listened to a recording and they also never stopped experimenting."

EDIT: insert "@all"

I think that oral (aural?) tradition and ear training are STILL the best way to learn these genres of music. I think what you wrote is how it should STILL be done to learn. Recordings and YouTube videos are fine to use. If you are playing a folk music, don't make your primary approach to learning be looking at tabs. Listen and learn to play it.

Technology can help us learn as it will allow us to slow down fast passages (now digitally accomplished without changing pitch, previously you could set a turntable from 78 to 45rpm, or a 45 to 33rpm, or half speed your reel to reel tape).

Before the technology, a player would just listen, listen, listen and try to play it, experiment, etc. People learning Irish music have "slow sessions" to help beginners learn songs by ear. Folk and roots music does come from a direct transmission of the music, these days often assisted by recordings.

I am not anti-theory, I use it a lot, sometimes to the confusion of some beginners with whom I discuss harp. To me, theory informs your playing, but first work on groove, your ear, and knowledge of the harp.

If you are playing classical or standards you may need to read standard notation. For jazz you may need to know a lot of theory. You can learn these genres by ear, but the music generally is based on standard notation. Learn to read standard notation if this is your goal.

Whenever I see someone post and ask for tabs for a song it makes me sad that they aren't listening and learning, and instead want someone else to figure it out so they can look at numbers of which holes to blow and draw on.

You can learn a lot by figuring it out yourself, by ear. If you have to write it down, go ahead, but it is better in my opinion if you hear it and play it.

To me it all comes back to your ear and learning the harp well enough that you can play what you think, WITHOUT thinking about hole numbers as you play and interposing an extra step in your music.

Chris L mentioned memorization in the original post about transcription. If this means memorizing by listening and playing, I don't consider that transcription. I consider it learning by ear, and I support it strongly.

IMHO tabs should be used only as a reference, and not be central to your approach to learning the music.

EDIT:
I just reviewed the thread to this point and realized that I just repeated much of what Barbecue Bob said above. I did it without thought, based on decades of my own learning and playing experience. What I wrote came from my own opinion, not copying his points. Even about slowing down records and tapes! However, he said it first, here.

Bob, you are a fantastic resource for this and other harp groups, and I value your participation!
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 29, 2014 2:20 PM
2chops
289 posts
Oct 29, 2014
3:22 PM
I always looked at tab as a starting point or a sort of musical shorthand reference point. A base line, if you will, to build off of. If you can sight read, all the better. But not really necessary unless you want to make a living at it.

Timing though IS necessary. I started as a drummer back in the 70's shortly before I started harp. Glad I did. I also listened to music of all different genre's too. I think you really have to listen to a lot of music if you want to have a good aural memories base to build from. Like many others here, I wore out a lot of vinyl getting a certain part firmly planted in my bones.

Basic theory is a must have too. Like a map to help you navigate your way around and know what's coming up around the bend.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Harp Study
47 posts
Oct 29, 2014
3:44 PM
In my opinion the single best thing you can do to improve as an instrumentalist of any instrument is to transcribe the greats that came before you. I don't necessarily mean writing out tabs that you have worked out but when you sit down and just listen to music and try to recreate it on your instrument you learn where all the notes and sounds live and the knowledge you gain is so much more than a memorized solo.

You internalize the notes and sounds. I admit it is time consuming at first but slow down software has made it much easier and the more you do it the faster it gets.I think this is how the greats became the greats.

Just my opinion but I think everyone should devote some time to this practice. Training your ears is one of the most important parts of being a good musician and this is a great way to do it while learning new material.
Chris L
76 posts
Oct 29, 2014
5:14 PM
Interesting points about time. I mentioned when I transcribe I use two lines: tab below and measured time above. I have tried to teach myself sight reading from time to time but never became adept. Nevertheless, after tabbing the notes, I have been counting out the beats and putting in measure marks and a line of notes above the tab representing standard time notation e.g. quarter, eighth, triplet-eighth, dotted etc. I suppose it is not a big step to just go ahead and drop the notes in a staff, but dammit! that would take even longer, and then I'd be responsible for what looked like real music! But probably wasn't! :)
When you really listen, as Bob points out, it is surprising to find out where those V and IV chord phrases really begin or end compared with where in a measure you initially think they should begin or end! So many subtleties!
One other recommendation! If you start this process pick a song you are fairly certain you could never tire of! Or one that is short and simple, like Walter Horton's solo on Willie Dixon's Spoonful...that one you can memorize quickly, but it is a revelation regarding time!
Fil
4 posts
Oct 30, 2014
6:44 AM
This is a great thread.
The Iceman
2236 posts
Oct 30, 2014
7:01 AM
Consider transcribing as a tool to improve your ear in understanding which notes are being played and where they live in the harmonica.

Don't worry about time at this juncture. This will come easier once you really know which notes are used.
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The Iceman
Jim Rumbaugh
1035 posts
Oct 30, 2014
10:29 AM
I just checked out that BEAT TAB Shaganappi mentioned.
I'm gonna give it a try.
My beginners NEED a tab
but they also NEED rhythm

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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
barbequebob
2744 posts
Oct 30, 2014
10:38 AM
Having checked out beat tab, I will give it props for being a much improved system compared to what I've seen over the years, but the one thing that I find with it is that it assumes the player using it has good time, and to be brutally honest about it, assuming that the user has good time is totally dead up wrong. Why? Like the way 98% of beginning players have a tendency to play with much too hard of a breath force, the same if not MORE beginners are NOT going to have good time at all and even when I started out teaching myself how to play, I'm not afraid to be brutally honest and tell you quite truthfully that my own time sucked really bad. That's a big weakness of the beat tab, even tho it deserves props for going many steps farther than what I've seen over the years, but tabs can be transcribed wrong and that is something you have to bear in mind about.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Michael Rubin
993 posts
Oct 30, 2014
12:38 PM
When I first learned I didn't write anything down I just pressed play, then played what I heard without the recording, then rewinded, then played with the recording, then repeated. I did this for thousands of songs.

I thought my timing was pretty good and my theory better than the average harp player, so I whistled along.

Then someone suggested I get a metronome. I took it seriously and spent a year just chugging subdivisons of the beat. I have been a gigging player since about 1 year into my playing. My amount of gigs did not increase, but the quality of the band's music did.

Then I got hired to be in the pit of a Broadway show. Can you read music? I lied and said yes. I knew where the notes were on the staff but didn't understand timing. I got the gig, took two reading music lessons and busted ass before the show started. I was obviously the worst reader and there were some embarassing moments. The conductor occasionally took me aside to tell me my time was a bit off. Still, I didn't get fired.

At one point, a singer couldn't make the show so 5 minutes before the show started, the conductor said, "We've got a sub today, so we're going to do the song in the key of A instead." I raised my hand and said, "What key are we in now?" You could have heard a pin drop.

I then went about asking every musician friend I knew what was important to know about theory. Every answer brought new questions. I asked everyone I knew the same questions. If I always got the same answer, I knew it was correct.

I bought the book Modern Reading Text in 4/4 by Louis Bellson, a drummer's book. I got out the metronome and busted ass. When I felt I had it much better, I read music for a long time.

While teaching students, I realized just getting most students to understand the layout of the harp was a major challenge and I began to develop ways to help them understand theory and timing, while at the same time jamming and feeling free in improvisation. I developed a method of transcribing that involved tab and note durations.

Now, I am almost back to where I started. I am transcribing jazz sax solos on the chromatic. I write it out in tab, don't write down the timing and play along with the recordings. I am having a blast and honestly don't care if I improve or not. I just like the experience.

I believe that for many people these ideas do not come naturally. Therefore I highly recommend a teacher.
nacoran
8078 posts
Oct 30, 2014
12:59 PM
"I realized just getting most students to understand the layout of the harp was a major challenge"

Micheal, especially if they are coming at it from another instrument! I was talking to someone who had tried harp but was baffled because there were notes missing! (He was fine with the idea of diatonic and one harp per scale but the top and bottom of the harp were giving him troubles.)

The harp is an odd little instrument. It's a physically arranged instrument, like guitar or piano (opposed to say, trumpet where the valves don't really relate to the pitch spatially) but it's hard to see what you are doing. I can't think, aside maybe from some very basic flutes, of another instrument that is laid out physically that has 'missing' notes.

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Nate
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STME58
1148 posts
Oct 30, 2014
9:14 PM
Someone has come up with a system that does a very good job of conveying the pitches and the timing. It looks something like this :-)

Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 30, 2014 9:19 PM
Diggsblues
1600 posts
Oct 31, 2014
7:00 AM
I transcribed some stuff from a Todd Parrott class.
Sometimes I have to go back and transcribe my own solos so I can play them again because they have become part of the piece.
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Shaganappi
122 posts
Nov 01, 2014
9:37 PM
Bob is right of course. The tabs are only as good as the transcribing is done. And many tabs are crap.
But if it IS done right and you count it correctly, it can enable communication of the rhythm from a printed page which has value per a number of reasons including analyzing, archiving, transposing and practicing correctly even in a class. I have been to a number of classes where the instructor has difficulty telling a student that there is some arcane little beat in there somewhere and has difficulty in showing where it is.
An example taken from Wikipedia per harp notation (down the page some):

Jack the Knife with underlining denoting blows:
/566.6 - /566.6 - /
/456.6 - /456 - - /
/678.7 - /767.4 - /
/557.4 - /776 x x /
All above beats are shown per Beat Tab notation via "-" for extending a beat & "x" and "." for stopping a beat.

Last Edited by
Shaganappi on Nov 01, 2014 9:52 PM
Jim Rumbaugh
1038 posts
Nov 02, 2014
5:17 AM
@Shag

I may be over thinking, but I suggest a time signature is needed for clarity. In you example, a 2/4 signature is implied with each number getting 1/8 beat. Your example works pretty good, better than any other basic number notation I have seen. I would suggest adding a - to the last note (number 7) to indicate it is held longer than the previous 2 notes.

At this time, I am going to experiment with 4/4 with 1/4 notes implied.

Jack the Knife in 4/4 time with underlining denoting blows:
/ [56] [6.] 6 - / [56] [6.] 6 - /
/ [45] [6.] 6 - / [45] 6 - - /
/ [67] [8.] 7 - / [76] [7.] 4 - /
/ [55] [7.] 4 - / [77] 6 x x/
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)

Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Nov 02, 2014 5:20 AM
Shaganappi
123 posts
Nov 02, 2014
7:46 AM
The reference beat per the time signature is different than the default beat. Read the detail section to clarify. There are some significant advantages to doing it different.
And btw as you may have noticed, putting in underlining directly on the forum is not fun. I have a program to do it automatically so the underlining is not lost on paste's, etc.
Also, careful per putting in or removing ANY spaces like after the / for instance or before the last /
Spaces are the prime modifier and count for a 1/8 note so then the beats will not add up.
Jim Rumbaugh
1040 posts
Nov 02, 2014
2:04 PM
I will go re-read the detailed instructions, then comment.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Jim Rumbaugh
1041 posts
Nov 02, 2014
2:25 PM
OK, I have re-read and understand
Your "Jack the Knife" is correct now that I undestand that a number with a space after it implies a quarter note, rather than eighth note.

/23432343/ is 8 eighth notes
/2 3 4 3 / is 4 quarter notes
/2 3 4 34/ is 3 quarter notes followed by 2 eighth notes

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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Shaganappi
124 posts
Nov 03, 2014
10:05 AM
Good example STME58 - The exact same music as swung for the 1st 3 beats followed by 2 beats of straight time per Beat Tab also showing explicit swing:

/6,6[x,6]6 4 5 / / key of Bb=11xC harp used - 5/4 meter

The [ ]'s are optional but tend to clarify if one is new to the notation. Overall, it's simpler and much more compact yet has ALL the exact same information as is shown in Standard Music notation. Then it becomes actually teachable in a more commonsense manner. One would just say something like:

Blow on the 6 and hesitate (the comma) and then play the 2nd 6 blow
just before the 2nd downbeat (the x representing a rest),
then hesitate again (2nd comma) and play the 3rd 6 blow just before the 4th 6 blow on the 3rd downbeat.
Then play the 4 draw and the 5 draw on the 4th and 5th downbeats respectively.
Then one would repeat it all (/ /).
Note how the key signature and position (11th pos I think - getting rusty here). Anyway it does not matter - the example is mostly for rhythm illustration.

Edit:
Correction. Of course it is in 1st position on a Bb, duh …
So transposing as before up on a C harp by 2 degrees and then choosing a harp 2 degrees down from C gives the same thing in 1st position on a Bb harp.
/6,6[x,6]6 5 6 / / key of Bb=1xBb harp - 5/4 meter

Last Edited by Shaganappi on Nov 03, 2014 8:57 PM
The Iceman
2238 posts
Nov 04, 2014
5:05 AM
Before sitting down to transcribe, try familiarizing yourself with the subject matter so well that you can easily sing along with it...many repeated listenings. Then transcribe it any way you choose. You should find it much easier to understand the rhythm behind it.
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The Iceman


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