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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Major vs. Minor - Positions Are Relative
Major vs. Minor - Positions Are Relative
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mr_so&so
884 posts
Oct 27, 2014
12:15 PM
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A few years ago, former forum member, hvyj, opened my eyes to links between several major and minor pentatonic scales. I've been thinking about that ever since, but never went deeper into the subject until recently. I've figured out a few more "new-to-me" relationships between scales and playing positions that some people here might be interested in. This all has to do with the major scale and its relative minor, the natural minor scale, and the major pentatonic and its relative minor, the minor pentatonic.
If you learn the notes of the major scale or major pentatonic scale, you have also learned the notes of the corresponding relative minor scale (i.e. the natural minor or minor pentatonic), and vice versa, if you learn the minor scales first. They are the same notes and same breath pattern. You just start and end on different root notes, meaning you are in a different key and different position. For example, if you know your major scale in first position (root notes on 1-blow, 4-blow, 7-blow, 10-blow), you also know the natural minor scale in fourth position (root notes now on 3-draw full-step bend, 6-draw, 10-draw).
If you study the scale charts (that you can find in my profile) for first and fourth positions you will see that the notes in both scales are exactly the same. The major scale is in columns labelled (1,2,3,4,5,6,7). Natural minor scale is in columns labelled (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). Major pentatonic is in columns labelled (1,2,3,5,6). Minor pentatonic is in columns labelled (1,b3,4,5,b7).
The major and minor pentatonic scales are more easily playable in different positions on the harmonica than the complete major and natural minor scales (because they have fewer notes, and therefore fewer potentially hard-to-play notes). As above, you will be able to play the corresponding relative major or minor, once you learn any of the pentatonic scale patterns. For example the major pentatonic scale in second position (root notes 2-draw, 6-blow, 9-blow) has the same notes as the minor pentatonic scale in fifth position (root notes 2-blow, 5-blow, 8-blow). You just start and end your scales on different root notes, so are in a different key.
There is a pattern that links the relative major and minor scales to harmonica playing positions. The following are the playing positions for relative major (or major pentatonic) and natural minor (or minor pentatonic) scales. Only some of these playing positions are really very useful in practice (easy to play) for these scales, but all are shown so you can see the pattern clearly:
1st (major) 4th (minor)
2nd (major) 5th (minor)
3rd (major) 6th (minor)
4th (major) 7th (minor)
5th (major) 8th (minor)
6th (major) 9th (minor)
7th (major) 10th (minor)
8th (major) 11th (minor)
9th (major) 12th (minor)
10th (major) 1st (minor)
11th (major) 2nd (minor)
12th (major) 3rd (minor)
There is one more useful pattern to consider and this has to do with the location of the root notes in the relative scales. The root note of the major scale is located one scale note above the root note of its relative minor scale. This holds true for all the pairings listed above. For example, if you play the minor pentatonic scale in 3rd position ascending from 4-draw (4,5,6+, 6,7+,8), then go up one more note in that scale to 9-draw, that is the root of the 12th position major pentatonic scale. If you descend now using the same notes but ending on 5-draw, you are playing the major pentatonic scale in 12th position.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 27, 2014 12:25 PM
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BronzeWailer
1497 posts
Oct 27, 2014
2:32 PM
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Thanks mr so&so. This is a very useful post. My laziness usually trumps my need to study theory but not always... :)
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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groyster1
2705 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:32 AM
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yes all this theory requires studying and my schooldays are long since over....the natural minor harps I have in the dorian scale have awesome chord sounds....playing them in second without crossing them
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GamblersHand
540 posts
Oct 28, 2014
8:46 AM
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Good post. I think that others (hvyj?) have posted about the similarities between 1st and 4th, 2nd and 5th positions.
Also some songs have a minor feel for the verse, relative major feel for the chorus - so you can use one harp throughout. An example is Mr Jones by the Counting Crows works well on a F harp, playing 5th (Am) for the verse, 2nd (C) for the chorus
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mr_so&so
885 posts
Oct 28, 2014
12:43 PM
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Thanks guys. It was indeed hvyj who first talked about this here with respect to major and minor pentatonic scales. Andrew Zajac later did up some nice graphic tables that illustrate what hvyj said. I hope I've been able to add to what hvyj presented a few years ago.
The upshot of all this is that there is less work than you might think to learn a whole bunch of scales and playing positions. More tools in the toolbox.
@GamblersHand, nice example song of where this could apply to actual playing.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 28, 2014 12:45 PM
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hvyj
2560 posts
Oct 29, 2014
6:36 AM
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There are different ways to view this stuff. Example: I was at a jam and a sax player told me he liked how I would play the relative minor on R&B tunes. All I was doing was playing major pentatonic in the same key as the tune. But that scale generates the same notes as the minor pentatonic scale of the relative minor key. A rose by any other name....
Practical application: if you are playing a blues tune add the flat 3d to the major pentatonic scale of the key you are in and if you use that scale you will be playing blues in the relative minor key. Gives your blues licks some variety.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 29, 2014 6:52 AM
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mr_so&so
886 posts
Oct 29, 2014
1:23 PM
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Welcome back hvyj! Just to clarify what you said above, do you mean to replace the major 3rd with the "blue" or minor third in the major pentatonic, or just to allow both tones (and everything in between)?
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hvyj
2562 posts
Oct 29, 2014
2:40 PM
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Thanks for the kind words. Use BOTH the third and the minor third with the MAJOR pentatonic scale. The third of the major pentatonic scale of the key you are in is the FIFTH of the relative minor key. SO...adding the flat third gives you the flat fifth of the relative minor which competes the blues scale in the relative minor key. (You know, the notes of the major pentatonic scale of the key you are in are the same as the minor pentatonic scale of the relative minor key, just starting on a different note and if you add the flat fifth to a minor pentatonic scale you've got the blues scale.). See how this works?
Some people refer to a major pentatonic scale with the added flat third as the "major blues scale." It's also sometimes called the "country scale" since country style guitar pickers often use it.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 29, 2014 2:50 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1034 posts
Oct 30, 2014
5:12 AM
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I can breath again
hvyj is back
thank you for your patience.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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hvyj
2564 posts
Oct 30, 2014
7:13 AM
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Hi, Jim. You know, it just wasn't possible to carry on this sort of substantive discussion while the inmates were being allowed to run the asylum, and posting stopped being fun. But it seems like things are better now.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 30, 2014 7:42 AM
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mr_so&so
890 posts
Oct 30, 2014
9:38 AM
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Thanks, hvyj. I came across the term "major blues scale" a few months ago and tried to find a good explanation for why the minor third is added to the major pentatonic. Google was not much help, but you just provided the answer.
One more question. When you are playing the major blues scale. Do you emphasize the root note of the major pentatonic, or the root note of the relative minor? Or maybe not play either root note very much? I'm still a bit confused about how you'd execute this in practice.
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hvyj
2565 posts
Oct 30, 2014
1:10 PM
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Well, I don't know that I have a good answer for you. Personally, when I'm playing blues that is not one chord Delta style blues I don't segregate the scales I am working with. By that, I mean that I play what I feel sounds good and selectively use the second, sixth and major third along with the notes of the blues scale. By way of generalization, I will resolve to the root of the key I'm playing in (not its relative minor); I don't use the major third on the IV because it is the major seven of the IV chord and doesn't sound "blusey"; I most often play the second as a ninth and most often on the V because it is the fifth of that chord. The sixth, which is the root of the relative minor I tend to use fairly liberally. Listen to Butterfield. He uses these notes very freely.
Now, playing in the high register(hole 6 and above) in second position you have a complete mixolydian scale available,as well as a complete major pentatonic scale and, if you can control the 10 hole full step blow bend, the notes of a minor pentatonic scale. So you can do quite a bit up there and can employ a completely different strategy than you would use playing the low and middle registers. IMHO, some players struggle on the high register because they try to play like they would on the lower registers and that really doesn't usually work all that well. Btw, I don't OB.
I've seen a couple of books on jazz that recommend playing the major blues scale on the I and moving to the minor blues scale on the IV. I've mostly been doing it the other way around for no particularly good reason. Still trying to put all this stuff together in a coherent way.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 30, 2014 1:16 PM
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hvyj
2566 posts
Oct 31, 2014
2:16 AM
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Since I mentioned Delta Blues, let me add that Delta blues does NOT employ the blues scale. It's minor pentatonic. It seems like it took me forever to figure that out, but it made a surprisingly big difference. FWIW.
I've always been impressed with musicians who are able to play convincingly in different styles. What they do is identify the musical characertistics of a particular idiom and adjust their playing accordingly. Obviously a certain level of technical proficiency is necessary to be able to do this, but technical proficiency alone doesn't get you there.
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 31, 2014 2:27 AM
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timeistight
1658 posts
Oct 31, 2014
7:14 AM
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@mrso&so: try using the major blues scale over the I chord and the minor blues scale over the IV and V chords.
If you want to know more about the use of these scales, pick up Dan Greenblatt's excellent book The Blues Scales: Essential Tools for Jazz Improvising.
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blingty
52 posts
Oct 31, 2014
9:19 AM
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Hey hvyj,
Good to see you back. I used to enjoy your posts back in the day.
>>I've seen a couple of books on jazz that recommend playing the major blues scale on the I and moving to the minor blues scale on the IV.
I imagine this was probably advised for blues. In that context, the I, IV and V chords are usually 7th chords (unless you're playing some altered variant like a bebop/Bird blues).
If we look at the notes in each chord of a blues in C:
I7 chord: C7: C E G Bb
IV7 chord: F7: F A C Eb
V7 chord: G7: G B D F
If you play a C major pentatonic, you have the notes C D E G A. If you keep that scale over the IV7 chord, you'll be playing the the note E over F7 - this is a major 7 note over a 7th chord, which does not work to my ear, unless treated specially.
If we look at the notes of C minor pentatonic: C Eb F G Bb C, they all fit over the F7 (IV7 chord).
If the IV chord is a major 7, then you can keep the note E as that note is in the chord.
I think we know this intuitively, you know the way blues harpists bend the 3rd hole draw down to the Eb for the IV chord parts of the blues.
Apologies if I'm just stating the bleeding obvious!
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blintgy like soundcloud, ug
Last Edited by blingty on Oct 31, 2014 9:21 AM
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hvyj
2568 posts
Oct 31, 2014
9:48 AM
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@blingly: Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated. the Greenblatt book on blues scales referenced by timeistight analyzes some Miles Davis solos and other jazz improvisations where the major blues scale is played over the I and the minor blues scale over the IV, so it's apparently not just a blues thing. Although what you are saying about blues chord structure and note selection is perfectly valid.
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