Mirco
218 posts
Oct 20, 2014
5:05 PM
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So I've been practicing scales and am not sure of how to use them. I am practicing the C Major Scale and am not sure when it can be used. I guess I need some confirmation of my thinking here.
Let's say that I have a C harp in hand. The band calls a tune in C. I would be okay to improvise using the C major scale on a C harmonica. I will focus my lines to resolve on the C.
Now the band calls a tune in G. Can I still use the C harmonica, and the C Major Scale, but just adjust my playing so that I now resolve everything on the G?
I think this might be mostly okay, in this case, because the notes of the C major scale are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, and the notes of the G major scale are G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. All the notes are present, except for that F#. I think it would be preferable to switch to a G harp, though, so all of the notes would match up.
However, if the band called a song in E, I would definitely have to switch harps, because the E scale has four sharps that wouldn't be present in the C Major scale (F#, G#, C#, D#).
I guess my rambling question is: When I play along with a band by using the "C Major Scale", should I use a harp that has the same key as the song key?
Thanks very much!
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Cabbage
9 posts
Oct 20, 2014
7:14 PM
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I think that depends mostly on what sort of song they're playing. Playing the c major scale on a c harp is called 1st position... its ideal for making chords, and its the easiest way to play folk music, but if you're playing blues and rock songs it can be somewhat problematic.. Remember that if they are playing a song in c major, that doesn't say whether its the major (ionian) mode or if its blues scale. Playing a c harp for a blues song in G is ideal, because you have access to a lot of essential notes, including the blues 3rd, once you start bending. Of course, once you're a pro, you should be able to play straight harp even for blues, but that will takes some time. I'd say for now your idea of trying to use the same scale but ending on g is the right idea. Eventually you're going to need to learn the blues scale, which Adam has some great videos on.
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Mirco
220 posts
Oct 20, 2014
9:55 PM
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Thank you. So is there really any practical reason that I should memorize and play the C major scale in 1st position?
As opposed to learning the blues and pentatonic scales and getting good at them?
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JInx
925 posts
Oct 20, 2014
10:36 PM
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the major scale is the foundation for all other scales. you can't understand intervals and chord construction without it. everything relates back to it and how you alter it will define the color of your music. study it inside and out, so as not to miss any of the fun!
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The Iceman
2227 posts
Oct 21, 2014
6:01 AM
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Don't think of it as a "Scale", but rather good note choices. Find the melodies that live in this "Scale" and learn about musical lines.
If you just practice it up and down as a "Scale", you are missing the point.
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The Iceman
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BigBlindRay
243 posts
Oct 21, 2014
6:18 AM
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Hi Micro.
Once youve learnt the C Major Scale, Learn the other 11 - It is a good idea to know how to play them too
Then learn all the associated modes too
Eg.
Major (Ionian)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Myxolydian
Aeolian (Natural/Relative Minor)
Locrian
It is good to know not only the Major Scale Modes of each Major Key but how to modulate through all the Major scale modes in one key
Practice the Harmonized Major scale - And all the diatonic chords - Work on Arpeggiating the diatonic chords of a major scale around the diatonic circle of 4ths.
Then do all of the above for the Harmonic Minor Scale and its modes too
Its also good to work Chords and Chord extentions around the cycle of 4ths too.
Practice the Major and Minor Pentatonic Scales in All 12 keys.
Hope some of these tips help
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- BigBlindRay
BigBlindRay website
Like me on Facebook
Listen to my music here
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SteveTech
9 posts
Oct 21, 2014
6:28 AM
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I find scales to be essential. To approximately quote one of arzajak's videos, "scales make things easier."
As Jlnx wrote, learn it inside and out. I would add, learn as many scales as you can bottom to top, top to bottom, and learn them as far up an down the instrument as you can, including incomplete octaves. Most Western music is composed from the notes in one scale or another, so what you're really practicing is the note patterns that are used to create melodies.
This goes for every instrument that I've ever played or taught.
And definitely take The Iceman's advice: Use the scale to find musical lines from melodies. With the major scale use simple melodies first. "Ba Ba Black Sheep," "Mary Had a Little Lamb," and the like, then move on from there.
By the way, learning the major scale in the lower octave has the added benefit of helping you zero in on the required bends.
Lastly, find a good teacher and take at least a month of lessons, even if you can only afford a month. From your question, I can tell that you're both intelligent and determined. That's equals a very teachable student. Make a list of your goals and questions and find a teacher who will address them.
This will save you a LOT of time and frustration.
Good luck on your journey!
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mr_so&so
881 posts
Oct 21, 2014
11:57 AM
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"Now the band calls a tune in G. Can I still use the C harmonica, and the C Major Scale, but just adjust my playing so that I now resolve everything on the G?"
If you did that, you'd be playing second position and playing in Mixolydian mode. You'd probably want to avoid the F (flat 7th) against G major though. But it would work great over a G7 chord. So it depends on the tune how well Mixolydian mode would work.
"However, if the band called a song in E, I would definitely have to switch harps, because the E scale has four sharps that wouldn't be present in the C Major scale (F#, G#, C#, D#)."
Now you are talking about a different situation. If, as previously, you just played the notes in Cmaj, but use E as your root note, you'd be playing in 5th position, and using Phrygian mode, which is a minor scale with lots of flattened notes compared to the major scale (1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). This would work great if the song in E uses a minor scale too (and you skip any notes in Phrygian mode that don't sound right). But the way you word this case is as if the tune is Emaj scale, which in 5th on a C harp would require lots of overbends. Maybe not your best choice.
"When I play along with a band by using the "C Major Scale", should I use a harp that has the same key as the song key?"
From the above examples, you can see that it depends on the song and what scale it is using. The modes of the major scale put you in different positions on the harmonica. Each mode is either major or minor, and you have to choose which mode best works with the tune. Learning the major scale in first position really well opens up playing in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 12th positions by playing the modes of that scale.
If you stick to the major and minor pentatonic scales, you can also make a lot of music in a lot of positions.
I also like The Iceman's comment. Get to know the scales in a musical way. Learn how one note leads to another in each scale -- their relative gravitational pulls as Iceman has called it in previous posts. I think BigBlindRay's advice is also good, but maybe beyond where Mirco (or me) is at at present.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 22, 2014 9:59 AM
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paulbunyn
103 posts
Oct 21, 2014
7:52 PM
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This helped me a lot. It's worth watching the full series. How Music Works with Howard Goodall www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnbOWi6f_IM
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Kingley
3741 posts
Oct 21, 2014
10:18 PM
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This is an interesting thread with some very good advice. Thanks for the link Paulbunyn, will check that out. I've embedded it here for folks to watch.
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Mirco
221 posts
Oct 21, 2014
10:33 PM
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This is some great information. So I'll keep working the "C Major Scale" pattern. I'll practice starting from and ending on different holes, playing different octaves. For example, from 1 blow to 4 blow for the C scale, 2 draw to 6 draw for the G scale, etc.
By doing this, I'll be learning how to play in different modes, right? After I have a good command of the different octaves, going up and down, I'll start working the pentatonic the same way.
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SteveTech
10 posts
Oct 22, 2014
5:38 AM
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You've got it.
Skill comes by repetition of the little things. Work that C scale every day for a week or two. Up and down, down and up. (Many people forget the down and up.) Work the octaves alone, then string them together.
Then add the G minor pentatonic to your routine. Be sure to include the notes below the low G. Do this for a good week.
Then add the G blues scale. Again, use the notes below the low G. Do this for a good week.
Then add D minor pentatonic.
Then C Major pentatonic.
You get the idea. Add one scale a week and you'll have them down fairly quickly. Begin by reviewing the scales you know, then work hard on the new one.
And don't forget what The Iceman wrote and find melodies in the scales. The whole point of a scale is to provide a pattern of notes to make a melody. The solo comes from a melody that you compose using a scale or scales.
I tell my students: "Do the lesson, then play fun stuff." It's good advice. Work the scales, then pick out melodies, play along with recordings, and improvise.
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The Iceman
2228 posts
Oct 22, 2014
7:03 AM
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If you can get out of the "Scale" mindset by thinking of them as a series of notes that make a melodic line (granted this line is not that creative - but is still a musical line), you will be further ahead.
These notes are considered good choices - so pick and choose wisely from within and start to understand how good choices make a melody or interesting melodic line.
An example - part of the that C Major Scale runs...
6 exhale, 6 inhale, 7 inhale, 8 inhale, 7 inhale, 6 inhale, 6 exhale.
Play the above and listen.
Now, think about Wizard of Oz "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" and replay the pattern above.
If you can make it come alive rather than sounding like a portion of a scale, it will help you understand what I've been talking about.
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The Iceman
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Ugly Bones Ryan
123 posts
Oct 22, 2014
5:38 PM
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You can't really use the C major scale when you're playing in G until the song moves to the C "IV" chord. Even then you should avoid using the "Natural VII" or the 7 draw in your case.
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http://www.murraythewheel.com/
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timeistight
1649 posts
Oct 23, 2014
12:44 AM
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UBR makes a good point: you shouldn't play a C major scale over all three chords of a G blues unless you avoid the scale notes that clash with each of the chords.
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Goldbrick
735 posts
Oct 23, 2014
5:14 AM
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How music works is an amazing series.
Here is the whole first episode
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A440
229 posts
Oct 23, 2014
5:37 AM
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This is a good thread - thanks everyone for the insights, and please keep it coming. I have played "by ear" for years, but ultimately hit a wall. I am now learning about music theory, scales, positions, etc. This is absolutely a requirement to keep advancing in the journey.
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Michael Rubin
991 posts
Oct 23, 2014
5:43 AM
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I have around 100 videos on theory and how it applies to diatonic. Go to michaelrubinharmonica.com and click on the Youtube archive page.
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Martin
712 posts
Oct 23, 2014
5:31 PM
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You can think of it as "scales", "positions" or what not -- and then, if you like, DON´T think of it in those terms -- but ANY note can sound good in an improvisation.
It´s a question of context ("resolution") and authority. Knowledge is never going to be a burden.
In terms of making things "sound good" too many blues harmonica players shun the 4-5-6 blow holes on the diatonic becuase they don´t know what to do there; in particular if they´re playing (yeah, here we go) first position.
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Mirco
222 posts
Oct 23, 2014
11:06 PM
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Wow, Michael! Your YouTube archive is pretty extensive. Over 90 videos on a lot of the music theory basics. While I know a lot about some of these topics, maybe I will make it my goal to work through this series. In fact, I'll stop asking questions for now, because a lot of the answers are probably there for me. Thanks! See you after the Michael Rubin gauntlet!
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JInx
927 posts
Oct 24, 2014
9:50 AM
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Here's a little lesson to get you going.
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NathanLWBC
12 posts
Oct 24, 2014
1:45 PM
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Jlnx beat me to posting that video! When learning theory, I think it's best to learn via ear training/sight singing(use movable "doe") along with your pencil and instrument learning. I mentioned this in another thread, but it will help your ear and help you understand the relationships. I also suggest learning things on a piano so that you can visualize the relationships.
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--Nathan Heck
Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
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GamblersHand
537 posts
Oct 26, 2014
12:41 PM
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In my experience a lot of major key music - rock, pop, and some country uses the flat-7, and even a blues third or bent 5th can work if used with discretion.
It could be me shoe-horning my 2nd position playing and bad ears to the wrong musical context though...
For major key music I don't tend to think in scales, just how major vs blues the song is. I think of notes and note choices being somewhere along a spectrum, say from "most major" to "most bluesy" being something like
7th - 3rd - 6th - 2nd - 5th - 4th - 7b - 3b - 5b
I'd accentuate with more bluesy notes on a delta blues, these would be the ones that I'd hold, land on the beat etc. Then more & more major-scale notes would be progressively used through Chicago blues, 8-bar blues, swing blues, blues-based rock etc
One other thing when I watched the start of the How Music Works clip - I was surprised to see Whole Lotta Love being given as an example of pentatonic music. Doesn't it use the flat-seventh in the signature riff?
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timeistight
1654 posts
Oct 26, 2014
1:04 PM
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The minor ( a.k.a. flat) seventh is part of the minor pentatonic scale.
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GamblersHand
538 posts
Oct 26, 2014
1:35 PM
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ah ok, of course - for some reason was thinking only of the major scale. Should have kept watching.
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