|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Do you really need a custom harp?
Do you really need a custom harp?
Page:
1
Kingley
3734 posts
Oct 18, 2014
12:24 PM
|
Reading over on the Hohner vs Suzuki thread Filip Jers said "The reeds shape little by little after your playing style and air flow. The embrouche in your mouth and jaw muscles learn and adapt how to play the instrument the best way, the more you play it.
Switching between Special 20 to Manji can be like going from Stratocaster with 011 strings to Telecaster with 013 strings, so its hard and judge what is best."
I completely agree with what Filip says and his analogy is bang on the money. Reading that post of his got me to thinking about custom harmonicas and out of the box harmonicas. Here's my thoughts on the subject.
I think it's a common myth perpetuated by many people, that stock, out of the box harmonicas are not very playable. Most of the good mid priced harps from the major manufacturers are playable to a gigging standard right out of the box . You hear people talk about combs not being flat, reeds not gapped right, tuning way out. Well I can tell you that the combs on the majority of harps out of the box are decent enough, the gapping is decent enough and the tuning is decent enough.
What is happening is that more people than ever before are working on their own harmonicas and playing custom harmonicas. A full custom harp or one that you have set up for yourself is easier to play and responds better because it has been set up for you personally. A stock harmonica is set up for the average player, so that will for some people make it a little harder to play. So once you get used to those custom / personally set up harmonicas responding with ease every time. You become so accustomed to it, that anything else is more difficult to play.
In the days before custom harmonicas, we played stock harmonicas and they did everything we wanted from them. Because we learnt to work them. We built chops that could bend those less than ideal set up reeds.
Some of the customisers will probably come along and tell you how awful those harps are and that I'm talking rubbish and that they all stink right out of the box. Well of they would though wouldn't they, because they are making money from you. Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't play custom harmonicas at all. I think that a well set up harmonica is a great tool and can help you to make many things more obtainable. For instance if your style relies heavily on overblows/overdraws then a custom harmonica can be hugely beneficial. For the majority of traditional blues players though a stock out of the box harmonica is perfectly fine most of the time.
I mean think about for a moment. If you always drive an automatic car then how would you cope with a stick shift. Or how would you cope with a kickstart, if there was no electric start on your motorcycle?
So my suggestion is next time you buy a harmonica, don't open the covers and start working on it. Instead play it for a couple of weeks as it comes out of the box. You might just surprise yourself how well you can play it after you get used to it. Plus you might also find that when you go back and play those custom/personally set up harmonicas that you can move around more quickly than before and get more dynamics into your playing. Go on give it a go. I dare you!
|
CarlA
618 posts
Oct 18, 2014
1:20 PM
|
I had an opinion to help an answer your question, but it's mysteriously disappeared.
|
Kingley
3735 posts
Oct 18, 2014
1:27 PM
|
Well it's more of an observation really.
|
Oisin
1094 posts
Oct 18, 2014
2:48 PM
|
I have never played a high end custom harp but I agree with what you say Kingley. I recently switched to playing Crossovers and they are fantastic harps. Don't need to do anything to them except, as you say, play them. You tend to end up fitting yourself around the harp rather than the other way round.
----------
Oisin
|
arzajac
1499 posts
Oct 18, 2014
4:43 PM
|
I agree with a lot of what you say, Kingley.
As with most things, there are two extreme points of view and I think the truth lies in the middle for most folks. I don't even think there is one truth that applies to everyone either.
To start off, I don't think reeds shape themselves to your playing style as you play. I think little crevices in the harmonica get filled up with saliva and debris and this makes the harp can take on a personality (good or bad) over time. But to sum up the difference between two brands, the guitar analogy is very accurate.
Chris Michalek used to say that playing one of his harps will "instantly make you a better player." I can't say that I agree that any harp will make you a better player. But I do believe that playing a better instrument will provide a better experience which translates into a number of positive - and measurable - effects. Not the least of which is that students progress faster if they play the best instrument they can get. This is corroborated by the music teachers (harmonica as well as other instruments) I deal with.
A lot of pros including non overblow players like Rick Estrin and Curtis Salgado play high-end custom (Filisko) harps. No doubt these players can and do make wonderful music with lesser harps. But how they approach playing one harp or the other is certainly different. It's hard to say if one is better than the other.
Will playing a custom make you "soft?" I doubt it. I think the same argument you make about developing "chops" on hard-to-play harps can be said about a custom harp. I think fine motor control and breath control is very important to develop. And I think those things are hard to develop on a leaky harp. I don't think I would be able to control my 3-hole draw bends as well as I do if I only ever played leaky harps.
So then, are all out-of-the-box harps leaky? Certainly not. Most are just fine. But some are just plain bad. If you buy ten harps of the same model, they won't all be set up the same. That's the reality of mass-production.
Harps of the past were at some times much better than today and at times a lot worse. In the late 80s and early 90s when Hohner Marine Bands were terrible and Lee Oskars were becoming popular (LOs are not the most airtight harps, either) players made due, as you mention.
I think players played a lot harder back then. I see a tendency in harp players from that era in the harps I repair. They blow out a lot more reeds than the 20-something players who are first learning the harp nowadays.
I think new harp players today get a better opportunity to learn good habits. This, again, is corroborated by the harp teachers I deal with.
"So my suggestion is next time you buy a harmonica, don't open the covers and start working on it. Instead play it for a couple of weeks as it comes out of the box"
Damn right! I highly recommend it. It's important to be able to play any old P.O.S. harp and make some mojo happen. And to do that takes practice. That being said, don't forget about fine motor skills, finesse and dynamics.
If you asked me, being a good player means being able to use both.
----------
Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
|
SuperBee
2227 posts
Oct 18, 2014
6:30 PM
|
i dont put much stock in that idea that reeds shape themselves to suit one's playing style.. i do think some gaps get filled. results aren't always good. i think mainly people adapt their playing to suit the harp...
when i learned to adjust gaps it made a huge difference to my experience of harmonica. harps which for years had failed to shape little by little to suit my playing style and airflow suddenly became much easier to play.
incidentally, regarding airflow, yesterday i was getting single-reed bends from reed plates mounted on a sjoberg tuner, while i drew air through a hose about 60cm long
|
davew
20 posts
Oct 18, 2014
7:08 PM
|
Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, or Sonny Terry never
played a "custom harp" and they did alright.
|
SuperBee
2228 posts
Oct 18, 2014
9:25 PM
|
maybe thats right davew. i mean, i have no idea what those fellers did with their harps regarding work to make them play better. maybe they never did anything to them, then again, maybe they just didn't tell their secrets
|
Gipsy
110 posts
Oct 18, 2014
11:42 PM
|
What a great question. I suspect there is no one answer. I believe it depends on how far down the road of learning the person has travelled.
As I've only progressed a short distance down the harp road, I'm gonna draw an analogy from my association with golf. A game I've been playing for over 45 years.
Setting out any golf club or harp will do. You don't know better and it's just something to get you going. After a while seduced by advertising and burgeoning ambition it's all too easy to fall into the trap of believing that the best equipment available is the way to become the world beater you believe you are intended to become.
Then after several years of playing and for most people failing to become a world beater, a realisation dawns. The equipment you choose to use is only one part of the jig saw puzzle that needs to be assembled in order to become the world's best.
From this point on a realisation dawns that whatever equipment you choose your own ability and application will be the main determinant of how far you progress, and not the equipment you use.
At this point those players destined to reach the top can basically play with any equipment, but to achieve their utmost they will certainly choose equipment that allows them to use all their skills to maximum effect. Those not destined for stardom will realise eventually realise this, and quite possibly settle to use any old equipment sure in the knowledge that their skills enable them to be at worst proficient, and on a good day excellent.
That's where I see the question of custom harps being answered. Beginners yearn after them because they mistakenly believe it can be a short cut to playing excellence. Intermediates and advanced intermediates think they will need them in order to progress further more quickly. Beyond this once true enlightenment is achieved an advanced player can play on any old harp and make it sound good, but perhaps only he will know how far short of what he can truly achieve this is.
|
The Iceman
2214 posts
Oct 19, 2014
6:17 AM
|
One can get where one needs to go driving a Ford, but why not take a Mercedes for a test drive for fun?
----------
The Iceman
|
Ted Burke
247 posts
Oct 19, 2014
6:46 AM
|
You have to buy the customized harp in order to take the test drive. A Mercedes you can leave at the dealership and return to your Ford. But I see your point. I think I am going to take the plunge and buy a SUB 30 from Rockin Ron and, if need be, ask Gnarly to do some work on it.
----------
----
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
|
The Iceman
2215 posts
Oct 19, 2014
7:09 AM
|
At a convention or harmonica gathering, there are usually some custom harmonicas that one can try out.
----------
The Iceman
|
The Iceman
2216 posts
Oct 19, 2014
7:44 AM
|
You're right, Ted.
----------
The Iceman
|
Kingley
3738 posts
Oct 19, 2014
7:51 AM
|
Very true indeed Ted.
My advice would be to learn to work on your own harps. If you can learn to do some basic gapping, flat sanding of combs, tuning and some light embossing. The you'll have a ballpark idea of what a custom harmonica is like without the layout of any cash. If you then feel that those self set up harmonicas are worth the work, then a custom harmonica might be the way forward for you. For what it's worth. If I was buying a custom harmonica I'd go for a Joe Spiers harmonica. Joe is right at the top of the tree where custom harmonicas are concerned. In my opinion it would make sense to get the best.
|
A440
226 posts
Oct 19, 2014
8:14 AM
|
I agree with Kingley - as an advanced intermediate, I am getting really great performance OOTB with good harps like the Crossover, Session Steel, and Hammond. I don't open my harps, unless I feel they need gapped, or a good cleaning every 3-6 months. I don't open a new harp unless it does not play well OOTB - and the above mentioned harps have been all fine OOTB. If something were seriously wrong with a new harp at this price point, I would simply send it back under warranty.
Most SP20s are also good OOTB, but maybe 1 in 5 comes from the factory with sticky high reeds, or over-gapped low reeds. Those I will re-gap. It takes 15 minutes.The one Rocket I own was airy and rattly, gapped way too wide from the factory. I reset those gaps on day one, and have not had to touch it since.
Do I customize my harps? No. Do I want to learn to do it? No. Frankly I do not have the time or interest to fiddle with them. I simply want to play them, and I don't always have enough time for that.
I also don't tune my harps. The Session Steels stay in tune. The Hohners that go out of tune, I send back to Hohner service for re-tuning, through my local brick and mortar harp shop. Then have a nice process for that and it does not cost much.
However, like 80% (my guess) of players, I do not overblow. I can appreciate that an overblow player probably needs a harp that is more carefully set up. And if you overblow, you probabaly need to spend a lot more time tweaking your harps. At this stage, I do not want to learn how to overblow. I have some country tuned SP20s which I use for some songs needing the full major scale.
Would I pay 200 $/€/£ for a custom harp? No, I don't see the need.
I bought one MB1896 during the past five years. It plays poorly OOTB and needs work. It's sitting in a drawer. Maybe one day I will pay someone to work on the reeds, replace the nails with screws, and put on a better comb. I have no interest in learning how to do that myself. But I can see how it could be interesting to others, modifying stock MB1896s. And some of those modified versions look really nice and play beautifully. I see the attraction.
I do enjoy customizing my bicycles. Most bicycles are good out of the box, but I like changing the parts and tweaking the performance.
Last Edited by A440 on Oct 19, 2014 8:28 AM
|
mlefree
203 posts
Oct 19, 2014
10:11 AM
|
I'm in the do it yourself camp.
I've always felt that I wanted to be able to be self-sufficient harmonicist. By that I mean in addition to be able to actually play them, to be able to "set-up" an OOTB instrument to my own playing style. Even in my earliest days I found the inconsistency of stock harps hampered my playing. As an engineer I found the variation in reed set-up from harp to harp and even reed to reed to be deplorable.
My feeling was then and it remains still that if I could do something to my stock instruments that would enable me to concentrate on my learning and playing skills instead of constantly compensating for a poor instrument, why not do so? Also, as I live in the rural Rocky Mountain west, there isn't a music store with a decent stock of harmonicas within 300 miles. So was determined to be able to repair my own harps as needed as well. One very practical factor, I simply can't afford to toss out a harp with 1 of 20 reeds that has gone bad.
So over the years I made it a point to accumulate the printed harp repair resources as they became available (Blackie Shackner, Douglas Tate, etc.). I bought the Lee Oskar and then a Hering tool kit (far superior to the LO), and then went on to spend a small fortune at Micromark to make up a fairly comprehensive tool Set. Add the Schoberg embossing tool (very handy). It was Richard Sleigh's tool kit, book, supportive information and finally his excellent Hot Rod videos though that really set me free in terms of my customizing skills. Because I was very fortunate to have been gifted with a bushel of broken harmonicas I have a stock of parts that will last me for years.
Bottom line, I am now totally independent and fully capable of setting up and repairing my instruments. I make no claim that mine are anywhere comparable to a custom harp, but they are all set up so that they play quite well for me. And, when a reed goes south, I'm ready, willing and able to fix it.
I think that like a guitar player learns to replace and tune strings on his instrument to his liking, any serious harper should be able to do the equivalent. Otherwise we should all save a bunch of dough and by some Swan or Victory harps on eBay and call it a day.
At least that's the way I see it.
Michelle
----------
SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Oct 19, 2014 10:20 AM
|
harpdude61
2202 posts
Oct 19, 2014
10:14 AM
|
I bought a custom 6 harp set of GMs from Buddha before he passed. Yes they are great, but the hassle of sending one off for repairs gets old. Repair one reed, get it back, and how far behind is the next reed?
I'm sure the top touring pros that use customs keep a rotating stock. When the customizer sees a harp from Rick Estrin I bet it gets priority service. Rightly so.
Don't assume that all overbenders use custom harps. Give me 10 minutes of gapping time on a new Golden Melody and it overblows/overdraws just as good as my customs.
That said, if I gap it, in a sense, I have made it a low end custom harp.
The out of box GMs I have been getting have been pretty good, but the gaping is far from consistent. I don't care if your Ricci or Levy, if that gap is huge you will not overblow.
I order new GMs from Rockin Ron, switch out some better quality combs, and gap the reeds for my needs.
Fastest and cheapest way for an amateur gigging player like me to keep going.
Our bands gets the same crowd whether I use high end customs or the low end customs I do myself.
----------
www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
|
Sherwin
178 posts
Oct 19, 2014
2:36 PM
|
Yes
|
Sherwin
179 posts
Oct 19, 2014
2:37 PM
|
Yes, you need one custom harp
|
JInx
922 posts
Oct 19, 2014
2:47 PM
|
All machines need tune ups, it's in their nature.
----------
|
Pistolcat
731 posts
Oct 19, 2014
2:48 PM
|
I'm with Iceman on this. The Ford - Mercedes likeness is spot on. A nice instrument is just nicer to play. I saw a documentary once about a symphonic orchestra that played a concert with instruments made from scrap and recycables. They sounded perfectly found but everyone complained on discomfort and pains all over.
Be nice to yourself and treat yourself to a well set-up harp.
----------
Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
|
dougharps
752 posts
Oct 19, 2014
3:23 PM
|
I encourage everyone to try at least one custom. Maybe a mid range custom and not the whole OB package. Pick an often used key (C or A?)
You can do fine using some of the better OTB diatonics, perhaps with a little gapping, but it is worth trying at least one custom.
However, it is true that they do need periodic maintenance, and there may be a long turn around on repair/retuning.
----------
Doug S.
|
walterharp
1540 posts
Oct 19, 2014
3:35 PM
|
if you blow out reeds with any frequency at all (like more often than yearly with pretty good use), then no.. custom harps are not worth it, other than getting one to feel like what it is to drive a Ferrari.. or getting one so that you know the reason you cannot over blow or hit bends on the note is not the harps' fault.
but if you can play with enough breath control it might be worth it. Even if you learn to work on your own harps, if you do it occasionally, it is really hard to do it well.. like if you only played once every 6 months or so.
that said custom harps are also variable. I got two from Chris (Buddha) one is stellar, the other less so.. but good.. other customs vary in quality but as those customizers are still around i will not comment on them specifically,
if you blow out reeds regularly then learn to replace them, play cheap harps, or buy higher level ones that have cheaper replacement reed plates.. my suggestion.
|
Bryan A
8 posts
Oct 20, 2014
11:24 AM
|
I am happy with most OOTB harps I purchase and always use my delinquent harmonicas for practice. I blow out high end reeds a lot, but I've finally stopped blowing out 4,5 holes a while back. Learning curves can get expensive. Anyway, I would like to test a fully set up overblow overdraw harp in like ten years ;)I can overblow 456 sometimes 3 and od 7,8 depending on the harp, but I only use the 6ob seldomly and usually just at home. I would hate to spend that money and crack a reed, but like walterharp says it would be my own fault. Cheers, Bryan
ps. the longest lasting harp I've ever owned was a Lee Oskar G harp. Not my favorite but I couldn't break it even when I was a beginner
|
Pistolcat
734 posts
Oct 20, 2014
12:05 PM
|
Ok, so here is a pic of my favourite custom harmonica. It is a Bb Marine band deluxe that has a VERY nice reed-work made, with gapping, embossing and tuning as well as extensive comb work... You can see in this picture that this machine plays as a mother. No-one that does bodywork like this shods the enginework, right? But one must remembers that there are differences between customs and customs...
Marine band custom in Bb
----------
Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Oct 20, 2014 12:08 PM
|
HarpNinja
3971 posts
Oct 20, 2014
1:51 PM
|
I try to tell myself that I can get away with a harp that is only gapped and tuned - which I guess already means it isn't stock.
I simply can't. Every time I play a custom harp I am reminded of how nice it is to play what I want how I want it and not fight the instrument.
----------
Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
|
atty1chgo
1180 posts
Oct 21, 2014
3:47 AM
|
Two of the finest blues harmonica players in the world don't play their music with customized harps. Sugar Blue plays OTB Hohner Special 20's, and Billy Branch plays OTB Suzuki Manji's. It is a personal preference more than a necessity, as I don't see any lapses in their playing as the result.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Oct 21, 2014 3:47 AM
|
kudzurunner
5070 posts
Oct 21, 2014
4:47 AM
|
I agree with pretty much everything Kingley has said. But I also agree with Arzajac--and I happen to be playing a C Marine Band that he worked on in front of the collected registrants at the Dunnville harp workshop, and it's a great harp. His tweaks improved it. It isn't a custom harp, exactly, but it's been worked on, and it's better than it was before he worked on it.
I think that these days, every player--not just every good player, but every player--would benefit from owning at least one custom harp, just to know what they're about.
I really like Kingley's automatic/manual transmission analogy. I drove manual transmission cars my whole adult life, and they were absolutely natural to me. They had certain distinct advantages, in fact (including the fact that they "vroooom" much more convincingly then you downshift and floor it). But I've gotten accustomed, so to speak, to my new Lexus's 6-speed automatic, and that's good, too. Still, I'm in much better shape, as a citizen of the world, for knowing how to drive a manual well, without missing a beat. I can get into a '66 Corvette or an old January XK 120 and have fun.
Kingley's right: those of us who learned on the tough old harps developed chops that would let us make them work. Those of us who overblowed back in the day could even make those notes pop in--and yes, it felt like a "pop" on those harps. But there are things that contemporary overblowers do, long sustained and bent notes, that I never learned how to do because those bad old harps really weren't conducive to them. It's like guitarists and the Malmstein fretting-and-hammering technique. You can't do that technique on the sort of electric guitar Charlie Christian played back in the 30s. It's a technique that arose once improvements in technology made it thinkable and possible.
|
RyanMortos
1482 posts
Oct 21, 2014
5:49 AM
|
I agree with most of what's said. Though, I've picked up out of the box harmonicas that had a reed that wasn't aligned center over the slot, if I hadn't opened it I would have a lot of difficulty playing the notes there. I've also had ones where the gap wasn't right and the reed buzzed against the covers. Though, 90% do seem "gig ready"...
That is until you decide to start playing overblows/overdraws & want them for performance. There's a couple models of harmonica that consistently seem to have okay 6ob, 7od, even 5ob but they certainly aren't as trustworthy as the 2 draw. I really wish harmonicas were sold from mass production that have 1ob or 10od as easy as the 3 hole triple bend but until then they need some adjustment. There's plenty to worry about without wondering if the instrument is the problem.
----------
~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
|
Post a Message
|
