Pistolcat
714 posts
Oct 12, 2014
2:44 PM
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After a workshop at HarpMeet NKPG 2014 with Mikael Fall I felt that I just needed to learn how to play in fifth position. Here is St James in Dm played on a Custom, Stefan Swén, Marine band Bb. Fifth position. Backing track by the fantastic jazzbacks.com. Recorded with a shure sm58 to a Focusrite Scarlett2i4
Comments welcome as usual! Do you have videos or sound clips of yourselves playing in fifth or recommendations for songs and so on, please post!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Pistolcat
715 posts
Oct 12, 2014
2:47 PM
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Minor pentatonic scale in fifth is the same notes as major pentatonic in second. For fifth the tonic is on blow 2,5 and 8. It can get you started fairly quick with your fifthing.
Edit:Fifthing... Heh, sound like a pervert with a speech impediment.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Oct 12, 2014 2:48 PM
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robbert
346 posts
Oct 12, 2014
7:08 PM
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Sounds good to me!
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harpdude61
2197 posts
Oct 13, 2014
6:31 AM
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Pistolcat.. Love it! I actually play VooDoo Chile in 5th and a couple of Robert Cray tunes like Smokin Gun.
I utilize the splits a lot in backing as well as solos. 2/5 blow to 3/6 blow to 3/6 draw to 4/7 draw makes a cool run up to V chord tension...upper octave 5/8 blow to 6/9 blow to 6/9 draw to 7/10 draw.
If you overblow you can play many blues scale based licks in three octaves.
IMHO 5th position is underused and offers a LOT for blues playing..especially the minor sounding stuff.
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groyster1
2695 posts
Oct 13, 2014
11:53 AM
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I have played this on natural minor harps....also summertime .....natural minor harps fit these 2 songs very well
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Pistolcat
717 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:51 PM
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Thanks, robbert!
Harpdude - Yeah! There are lots of splits to be had! Do you mean a 3/6 draw split or 3/7 draw split octave? Both 6 and 7 draw are part of the scale so I guess it could be cool. The 3/6 split is the same interval as a 2/5 split, right? It'll be like a V7 in fifth position.
Thanks for listening!
Groyster- yeah natural minor is the scale to use in st James. In summertime you can use Dorian, too. St James is actually more fit in third if you OB the 6 as there is a major seventh at one place. If one is too play it "correctly" in fifth you need to OB hole one and four whereas you just bend the 1 and 4 draw in third. I guess fourth position would work too but I haven't mapped that out yet. I don't play too much on non-richter harps. It makes my head hurt :)
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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JInx
911 posts
Oct 13, 2014
3:17 PM
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Fifth position gets you a nice crawlin kingsnake flat 2nd, a la Robbie Krieger.
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ridge
556 posts
Oct 13, 2014
5:05 PM
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Cool, Pistol! I like when people post examples of "other" positions. We mention 5th and 4th, but hardly ever hear anybody do it. Maybe we should make a 5th position thread w/ examples. If I remember correctly, 1847 also posted something months back with some cool 5th position work of his own.
What I found most interesting was your completely different take on 5th than I have come up with... I play more of a country feel when using 5th.
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Ridge's YouTube
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BronzeWailer
1487 posts
Oct 14, 2014
12:26 AM
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Great work Pistolcat. I need to get into this position.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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harpdude61
2199 posts
Oct 14, 2014
2:51 AM
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The splits I mentioned give you a Split on root and flat third....then two partial chords that create cool minor tension.
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mr_so&so
879 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:18 AM
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Pistolcat, I loved that. I've been meaning to give 5th a try because I've been working so much on 2nd lately. You given me some motivation to get going on that.
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nacoran
8056 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:33 AM
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I play it on a harmonic minor. Haven't worked out exactly what's different about it, but I like the sound a lot.
Could never get my band to play it. They said it was too depressing. There is another version floating around the site with some nice changes to the lyrics that I'm particularly fond of. I'll post a link if I can find it.
You've got nice tone on that. I think most non-harp people hearing that would guess you were playing a tin mute trumpet. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Pistolcat
718 posts
Oct 14, 2014
2:15 PM
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Jinx - Thanks for taking time to comment. I haven't listened to Robbie Krieger but using the flat 2 make him sound like someone unusual. I'll check him out. The 2 hole draw half bend for the major second creeping upp to the minor third is really nice in fifth, too.
Ridge - I'm not that into country. But to me country is major (pentatonic or at least major 7) Seem very hard to do in fifth? Overblowing 1 4 and blowbend 8 for that major 7? Do you mean 12:th position? Or I guess there is minor country, too. Please, direct me to some song if you have the time.
BW - Thanks man! Just think major pent in second and land on that blow 2 and your there! :) Hell, play amazing graze in second but land everything on blow 2 instead and you'll get some psychadelic stuff.
Dude- Yeah, right! Nice to have a split for the minor third.
Mr so&so - Grab your G harp and start jamming to Thrill is gone in B and work it like major pentatonic in second and you'll be BB King!
Nate - Do you play on a harmonic minor in first? I need that C (draw 4 in fifth and blow 7 in third) for the run down (Saw my baby there) On a harmonic minor in first one would have to bend the six overblow up half a note. One can always substitute, though I guess. I don't play the major 7 in the final stanza in fifth since I can't overblow either 1 or 4 very well. (which would be easy on a harmonic minor harp). In third it's easy, too, but you need the 6 OB.
The harp I play is superb! The tone is built in. I overused hand effects alot, though but I wanted the feel that Filip Jers have in his version (in third pos).
Thanks all for listening!
Edited to add Filip Jers version.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Oct 14, 2014 2:17 PM
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nacoran
8057 posts
Oct 14, 2014
3:18 PM
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I'm playing in first with no overblows, starting on the 4 blow. It's not quite 'right' as far the notes, but I like the substitutions.
Here is a link to the thread where Jim Rumbaugh sings it.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/3630387.htm
He's changed the lyrics up a bit. I'd tried 'fixing' the lyrics myself a couple times. It always seemed there were a couple songs mixed in there that both deserved their own treatment. I like Jim's lyrics best of any of the many arrangements I've heard. :)
Edit- although looking at the thread, looks like you've already seen it!
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Last Edited by nacoran on Oct 14, 2014 3:21 PM
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mr_so&so
880 posts
Oct 14, 2014
5:18 PM
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@Pistolcat, I have been working the major pentatonic for a while in 2nd, so I just gave 5th position minor pentatonic a go this evening. I was off and running pretty quickly once my brain registered the new root note. Thanks for starting this topic!
@Nate, I offered my version of St. Jame's in that thread you mentioned too. I'm pretty happy with the lyrics I came up with, keeping some verses and writing a couple of new ones. I tried to make it a coherent story again. After a few hundred or thousand people have had their way with such an old song, it's like the broken telephone game, and it becomes nonsense. My 3rd position playing was pretty crappy though on the take I posted. I'm inspired to do another take with better playing.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 14, 2014 5:28 PM
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ridge
557 posts
Oct 15, 2014
4:54 AM
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I'll try to record something, but basically, I play 5th using the major pentatonic in 2nd, but start on 2 blow instead of 2 draw and end on 5 blow.
+2, -2, 3", -3, -4, +5
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Ridge's YouTube
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AirMojo
362 posts
Oct 15, 2014
8:41 AM
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I enjoyed that Pistolcat !
I like 5th position a lot... discovered 5th while listening to a CD by Wailin Wood... the song was "Poor Wayfaring Stranger".
Here is a video of Charlie McCoy playing this song, and in 5th position on a C harp.
Country-tuned harps work great for 5th position with the raised 5 draw that you need to avoid on a regular richter-tuned harp.
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Pistolcat
721 posts
Oct 15, 2014
3:29 PM
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Ridge - Yeah, thats it. If Charlie McCoy plays fifth then i guess it's country :D
AirMojo - Thanks for listening. I like That Wayfaring stranger video a lot!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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