JustFuya
608 posts
Oct 10, 2014
8:14 PM
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A couple of days ago I took the time to look closely at a Suzuki reed plate and compared it to some Hohner reed plates. I'm not particularly fond of the Suzuki spotwelds or the goop method of weighting but I am impressed with the fine machine finish of the reeds and their centering in relation to the slots is amazing considering it's a one shot deal. I also like the consistent grain of the Suzuki tuning touch compared to the angry scratches on the Hohners.
I just ordered a couple of Suzuki harps but I would like to hear what others think. Specifically, comments from non-endorsers who have playing experience with both makes. Hands down, Suzuki makes a prettier product. But does that mean anything as far as playability and endurance.
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SuperBee
2221 posts
Oct 10, 2014
9:40 PM
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I just have never played a Suzuki I really liked, but my sample is limited. The manji was closest, but I didn't really like the way the reeds responded. Kind of stiff-feeling, I thought. And I hate the feel of the composite comb, reminds me of an unsealed wooden comb.
The pro masters just leave me cold, at least the 5 I own do, maybe they're a bad batch...
The folk masters are not up to much, but I liked the reeds ok.
I tried a blues master. Found it hard to operate. Tried gapping it. It needs more than gapping. It's ok, but I prefer my marine bands, special 20s, even MS bluesharp
I agree the Suzuki looks the goods, and I do think if I persisted with the manji I'd get used to it...
But, I like to repair my harps and those welded reeds are problematic. So, I'm staying with marine band types.
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STME58
1133 posts
Oct 10, 2014
11:14 PM
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I have Hohner Marine Band, Crossoever, Special 20, Blues harp, Pro Harp, blues bender and Hot Metal. On the Suzuki side I have Pure Harp, Firebreath, Promaster, Hammond, Harp Master and Folk master. Many of these have failed some I have not repaired (pro Harp, blues Bender, Hot metal) I like that reed plates are more reasonable for the Suzukis. A crossover reed plate set costs almost as much as a new harp. However the riveted reeds are more easily repairable. If my Suzuki fails within a year I sent it to Gnarly at Suzuki and he does a good job of replacing the reed using a screw to fix the new one in place. The higher prices harps seem to play better in both brands but at a given quality level harp to harp variation is nearly as great as brand to brand variation.
I tent to like Hohner better for 2nd position blues type playing and Suzuki for first position folk and classical melody lines. If I were recommending a harp to a new player based on price and versatility I would probably recommend the Special 20.
I don't notice a significant durability difference between the two. If I latch onto a harp to work out a specific song I am probably going to fatigue a reed. I have been working on pieces with 5 OB in them and breaking a lot of 5 blow reeds. I have a C Firebreath that needs to go to Gnarly now.
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boris_plotnikov
1015 posts
Oct 11, 2014
12:26 PM
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Get a custom harmonica. Doesn't really matter what particular brand and you'll be wondered.
I tried hundreds (if not thousands) of different harmonicas of different brands and models including B-Rad and Fabolous. Most of them was just about similiar in quality dispersion. Some particular harmonicas were almost as good as custom, some were almost as bad as chinese crap. Custom harmonica (even with little embossing and gapping) from good customiser is much better than best stock one.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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boris_plotnikov
1016 posts
Oct 11, 2014
12:26 PM
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Get a custom harmonica. Doesn't really matter what particular brand and you'll be wondered.
I tried hundreds (if not thousands) of different harmonicas of different brands and models including B-Rad and Fabolous. Most of them was just about similiar in quality dispersion. Some particular harmonicas were almost as good as custom, some were almost as bad as chinese crap. Custom harmonica (even with little embossing and gapping) from good customiser is much better than best stock one.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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Thievin' Heathen
412 posts
Oct 11, 2014
12:28 PM
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A little OT, but I scored a couple of Crossovers on Ebay not long ago. I had not tried Crossovers yet, but these all had fractured 5 draw reeds. Not finding any suitable candidates for cannibalizing 5 draw reeds from, I decided to order some reed plates. I had to re-think that when I saw the $45 price tag, so I decided to put the Crossovers in cold storage until a time when I can spring for some reed plates.
Then I remembered I had some new spare Suzuki ProMaster reed plates. Just for the Hell of it, I started comparing the size of the Crossover plates to the ProMaster plates. With a little bit of drilling and tapping, I now have an A and a D Hohner/Suzuki hybrid.
I imagine my chances for a Suzuki or Hohner sponsorship has been compromised, but maybe I can get a discount from McMaster Carr.
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tookatooka
3702 posts
Oct 11, 2014
12:36 PM
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As an ex Suzuki user, BluesMaster, ProMaster, I used to blow out 4 or 5 Draw reeds regularly. Changed to Sp20 because preferred the tuning and haven't blown a reed in about four years.
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JustFuya
612 posts
Oct 11, 2014
3:43 PM
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I bought the harps mainly for physical comparison. I will take them for a spin and if I don't like them I have someone lined up who will gladly take them.
As for swapping plates between Suzuki and Hohner, I recently took some measurements on each brand and found the slots and reeds nearly identical. I have to wonder if Suzuki did some simple reverse engineering or if they have an agreement with Hohner. Maybe the patent expired if one even existed.
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Moon Cat
466 posts
Oct 11, 2014
5:03 PM
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Suzuki, Suzuki, Suzuki. Better built in a better factory, with better materials and better more constant machines and tools for a more consistent and better harp. All that being said: "Each to their own"-J
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www.mooncat.org
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arzajac
1493 posts
Oct 11, 2014
6:10 PM
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They are very different. Out of the box, a lot of the time, Suzuki can use a little help. Hohner, too, but I think you can get more out of a Suzuki harp in a few minutes than you can get out of a Hohner.
I have yet to find an aluminium Promaster comb that was airtight. Hohner combs aren't close to perfect either, but the Promaster would be a much better instrument if it was airtight out of the box. Despite that, lots of folks like it. What does that say?
The timbre is different. The tuning is different.
Hohner reeds sound really thin and prickly when you emboss them aggressively. Suzuki reeds start off with a cleaner tone, but if you (full-slot) emboss them a lot, they still retain a little dirt when you bear down on them.
Lots of options for those who want to experiment.
The stock Suzuki compromise tuning is similar to the Crossover tuning. The thirds are minus 5, everything else is zero. Regular Marine Band tuning has the thirds at minus 12. Crossover tuning is a little more involved, but the notes are closer to zero. Both Hohner and Suzuki harps are not in perfect tune out of the box, though.
I think with the recent price hike from Hohner, you get much more value from Suzuki, especially if you are open to spending a few minutes on your harps to deal with mass-production syndrome.
You can lacquer/shellac the tips of the tines for comfort and flatsand the Manji comb pretty easily. Or you can buy one of my combs... It's still beneficial to flatsand the draw reed plate, even though there are no rivets. The reed plate is not perfectly straight...
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 11, 2014 6:13 PM
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sonny3
217 posts
Oct 11, 2014
6:17 PM
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Everybody has different tastes.I tried to like suzukis but couldn't find one.Manjis are pretty good but the two i tried were real stiff on the 3 hole bends.Also tried promaster and firebreath,the truth is every marine band 1896 I've tried have been better than any of those suzukis.Just my experience.
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harpwrench
924 posts
Oct 11, 2014
7:28 PM
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@arzajac
"Hohner reeds sound really thin and prickly when you emboss them aggressively."
That's weird. Mine sound fat and wooly. Both brands have their pluses and minuses.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Oct 11, 2014 7:48 PM
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Kingley
3723 posts
Oct 11, 2014
11:01 PM
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Both companies make good harmonicas and I'd happily play either. My personal preference is Hohner Marine Band/Marine Band Deluxe. simply because I prefer the tone and find them easier to play. The Manji's I have are good harps that I have worked on and set up for my style of playing, but they are a little harder to play than my Marine Bands. What I mean by that is that the bends and general reed response is a little slower than the Hohners in my experience. You have to fight them a little more.
" I think you can get more out of a Suzuki harp in a few minutes than you can get out of a Hohner."
Not my experience at all Andrew. I find the exact opposite. I can generally get more out of Hohner with a few minutes of work than I can with a Manji.
My advice to anyone would be regardless of which brand you play, learn to set up your own harps. Even if that just means simple gapping. That will make a far bigger difference to all your harps than which company manufactured them.
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 11, 2014 11:03 PM
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A440
222 posts
Oct 11, 2014
11:48 PM
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I have only 1 Suzuki, a Hammond. Otherwise I play SP20s, Crossovers and Session Steels (my favorite harp). At first I was not too impressed by the Hammond, but it has since grown on me, and I now plan to buy more Suzukis. It has a smoother sound (even volume across the reeds) than any of my Hohners. It is responsive, airtight, and a joy to play. I am also increasingly interested in ET. I play in a 6-piece band. The SP20s often sound out of tune with the band. Crossover and Session Steel less so. So I'm planning to build a set of ET harps from Suzuki (Hammond, Firebreath, Olive), for playing with the band on those songs where it is critical to be in perfect tune with the other instruments.
I very rarely break a reed, so that is not an issue for me. Reedlife is a different topic, and too early to tell on the Hammond.
Addional food for thought: On a recent thread about the Low Manji, Komuso shared a link to a Tokyo harp shop. The price of a Manji/Olive in Japan is the same price as a SP20 in Germany, around 25 Euros (32US$). So in their respective domestic markets they are postioned similarly. In Japan, the Suzuki Fabulous is the same price as a Seydel 1847 Noble in Germany (I guess this is where the discontinued pre-MS Meisterklasse would have competed from Hohner). So import/export distorts local pricing and relative market positioning of models. In Japan, the Manji is a direct competitor to the MB1896 (not the Crossover)!
Last Edited by A440 on Oct 12, 2014 7:33 AM
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Chris L
66 posts
Oct 12, 2014
9:41 AM
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I have collected samples of various models from both Hohner and Suzuki, but have a decent collection of MS, Special 20, and Bluesmaster harps in C,D and A in particular. Bluesmaster and Sp. 20 fit the same niche, i.e. the lower end of good quality harps, based on a plastic comb. With a little tweaking (gapping, tuning, a little attention to airtightness) both can be made into excellent harps. Most of my Suzukis, several years old, have been tuned to Marine Band compromised tuning, so have comparable tone on the chords as the Sp 20s.
So here are my observations as an intermediate player:
OOB Suzuki on average are tuned a little sharper, maybe 6-8cents. Not really an issue. The Suzuki consistently have the sweeter tone. Very clean and rich. Special 20s have a minutely quicker response, which is helpful for really fast triplets or sixteenth notes, but there is a trade off in the stability of bent notes. It is simply easier for me, with my skill level, to sustain a bent note on the Bluesmasters. It is great to have both, but if I had to chose, personally, I think I would go Suzuki, just for the sweetness of the tone.
Re. longevity - The only reeds I have ever blown out were on the Hohner Bluesbender, probably due to the thick plates. Suzukis seem to hold their tuning longer.
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groyster1
2694 posts
Oct 12, 2014
10:19 AM
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my favorite Suzuki is the harpmaster,reasonably priced plays very well....the manji is overpriced IMHO mb1896 are better harps at a lower price...sp20s are the best harp for the money very airtight and durable...prefer the open covers...the mbdeluxe and crossover come very well constructed...hohner wins over Suzuki for me
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S-harp
228 posts
Oct 12, 2014
2:39 PM
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I dig the insides and all variables involved making a harp perform better. I agree with MoonCat ... Suzuki's more consistent and with better tolerances. They're built better.
I gig and do studio work, ... got both Hohners and Suzukis in my harpcase, mostly Marine Bands and Manjis. Sometimes it's accoustic gigs, sometimes half accoustic, sometimes fully amped and loud. Mostly blues, sometimes Rock a Billy, spirituals, folk, country ... My set up is two harps of each key, one Hohner and one Suzuki. That way I always got one spare and a neat variation in sound and performance, which is what this discussion is all about. They sound and perform ... different. It comes down to your preferances and the music you play. Sometimes my Suzuki fits the music better, sometimes my Hohner. And they are different ... both to play and on the work bench.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Oct 12, 2014 2:42 PM
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S-harp
229 posts
Oct 12, 2014
3:11 PM
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So, what do you think ... do I play a Manji or a Marine Band on this radio promo?
Vid audio with iPhone, so the audio is ... you know ...
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152332078781205&id=212375816204
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Oct 12, 2014 3:12 PM
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arzajac
1494 posts
Oct 12, 2014
3:48 PM
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"fat and wooly"
Woolly is a great description. Some folks love wool sweaters while some find them prickly. That's exactly it! I try to ask my customers what they prefer.
"Not my experience at all Andrew. I find the exact opposite. I can generally get more out of Hohner with a few minutes of work than I can with a Manji. "
Are you doing the same thing on either harp? I think each harp needs a different touch to take full advantage of the "low hanging fruit" - the stuff that will give the most benefit for the least work.
For example, improving a Manji's airtightness is easier than a Marine Band because you don't have to seal the stock Manji comb after you sand it.
Another example, embossing a Manji will give a performance boost where I would look at doing some reed work on a Marine Band first.
".the manji is overpriced IMHO mb1896 are better harps at a lower price"
In Canada, the MB 1896 is $50. The Manji is about $55. Suzuki prices are lower in Canada.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 12, 2014 3:50 PM
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arzajac
1495 posts
Oct 12, 2014
5:20 PM
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"So, what do you think ... do I play a Manji or a Marine Band on this radio promo?"
There's so many things that create and affect one's tone that it's hard to tell with only one clip. Maybe if there were two videos, one of either harp, it would be a fair contest! Whichever harp it is, it sounds like a well-playing harp being played well, though.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 12, 2014 5:20 PM
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florida-trader
529 posts
Oct 12, 2014
5:24 PM
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On the subject of Hohner vs. Suzuki harps…….
Hohner is the unquestioned king in the harmonica world. A few years back, many were critical of the quality of Hohners, but in recent years, the quality of Hohners is very good. I think we, in the harmonica community, can thank Seydel and Suzuki for that. Seydel and Suzuki make high quality harps and the competition forced Hohner to up their game. So when we make a comparison I think it is important to make an apples to apple comparison – meaning a recently minted Hohner – say a Marine Band or Marine Band Deluxe – and a new Manji or Olive. If you are looking for an Over-Blow harp, I think we can exclude the ProMaster from the conversation. ProMasters and Hammonds have shorter wider reeds than the Manji or Marine Band and tend not to be as good for Over-Blows.
Clearly the Suzuki Manji is a take-off of the Marine Band Deluxe. It has a sealed composite comb. The reed slots, both in the comb and the reed plates, are pretty much identical to the MBD. And the single screw at the front of the covers is an idea derived from the way many of the top customizers build custom Marine Band 1896’s. The same can be said for the new Hohner Rocket. The single screw on either side at the front of the covers is a take-off of what many of the customizers do.
Both are great harps. You can’t go wrong either way. Recently, I have taken to tuning Manjis and ProMasters to Modern Compromise Tuning. I’m not a big fan of the stock Suzuki Tuning which is closer to Equal Temperament. As soon as I started tuning the Suzukis to Modern Compromise, it gave them new life – in my opinion.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Thievin' Heathen
415 posts
Oct 12, 2014
6:40 PM
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Tom, I think Lee Oskar deserves the majority of the credit for causing Hohner to "up" their game. True, Manji's, Crossovers and a couple of the Seydels are taking it to an even higher level, but Lee Oskar in the 1980's was the no-brainer alternative to the pinned together plastic crap Hohner was building.
Just my opinion. I might hold a different opinion if I had been die-hard marine band player and mechanic back then, but I was trying lots of different things at that time and it was before the internet.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Oct 12, 2014 6:43 PM
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florida-trader
530 posts
Oct 12, 2014
7:40 PM
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Theivn’, you might be right. I’ve heard that Lee Oskar is the #2 harp manufacturer behind Hohner in terms of gross revenues. But I’ve been to numerous harmonica festivals – SPAH, etc. – and when you look in the gig cases of the hard core harp enthusiasts, you don’t see many Lee Oskars. They are good solid harps but other than the different tunings they offer (Melody Maker, Natural Minor, etc.) there doesn’t seem to be a lot of innovating going on over there. Lee Oskar does not even bother to have a presence at SPAH. Interesting.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
1135 posts
Oct 12, 2014
11:16 PM
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Tom, when you say Lee Oskar is the # 2 harp by revenue do you mean Tombo?
Tombo Makes quite a range of interesting harmonicas. I bought a D Ultimo when I was in Hong Kong and it is a good harp. Why they only sell the Lee Oscar model in the US I don't know. If just one model, the Lee Oscar, is outselling Hohners entire lineup, that is quite impressive.
The Lee Oscar brand is interesting to me. Is it a Tombo model endorsed by Lee Oscar? Is Lee Oscar a separate company that contracts Tombo to make harps to their specs? Why is the Tombo name not more prominent in US sales, it is on the harps so its no secret, and why no other models?
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 12, 2014 11:16 PM
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florida-trader
531 posts
Oct 13, 2014
3:33 AM
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STME58 – Lee Oskar is indeed made by Tombo and thanks for the link. By no means did I say or mean to imply that Lee Oskars outsell Hohner. Perhaps you meant Suzuki? Or Seydel? I am no privy to sales figures. I am only regurgitating what I have heard from other harp players. I’ve heard that Hohner controls more than 90% of the market and that Seydel, Suzuki, Tombo and Hering fight over the rest. That’s what I’ve heard. I think that the harmonica forums are frequented by more serious players and so the popularity of Seydels and Suzukis is probably much higher than in the general public. You don’t see Suzukis hanging in blister packs at Cracker Barrel or Sam’s Club. I’m not certain, but I don’t think I have ever seen anything but Hohners in music stores like Sam Ash or Guitar City.
As for Tombo, I checked out their website. I looked through their “International Distributor List” and at the very bottom of that page it reads, “For North and South America, we sell LEE OSKAR model only. Those who are interested in TOMBO products in these territories can contact us directly.” I have no idea why that is, but it would seem to explain why those of us in the U.S. are not very familiar with their other models.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
1137 posts
Oct 13, 2014
7:04 AM
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This industry is very hard to get information on. I have only a casual interest but I did a search recently and only found this, which I previously posted:
I see here that in 2006 here had 85% of the market but it does not say how big the market is.
in 1969 1.8 million harmonicas were sold at $1.50 (about $10 today adjusted for inflation) to 750,000 US players.
But no current data on market size.
Based on What I see in music stores in San Diego, Lee Oscar being number 2, by itself without the other Tombo products is feasible as Lee Oscar is the only harp besides Hohner I have seen on a store shelf. I haven't seen a Sam Ash or Guitar City here bu in Guitar Center it is Hohner and Lee Oscar as it is in the small music stores where I go for trombone and sax stuff. My search for a place to buy other brands led me to Rockin Ron.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 13, 2014 7:04 AM
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HarpNinja
3951 posts
Oct 13, 2014
8:08 AM
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I have yet to buy a Suzuki that I've fallen in love with, and believe me, I've tried.
I find both Hohner and Seydel to play better out of the box. I find Hohner harps the easiest for me to modify.
Something to consider when comparing harp is the price point. The MB and Special 20 run around $40 on line compared to over $50 for a Manji. The Crossover is pushing $70.
I guess, basically, what it comes down to for me is if I would be comfortable playing a harp onstage without having tweaked it. I find the Special 20 to be a yes. What I do is play the harp with some gapping until I have a chunk of time to truly set it up.
I find Hohners easy to work on and relatively easy to fix. I really really really wanted to like the Manji more, but the comb is terrible and I can't emboss them in the same way I do Hohner's, which is my fault, not Suzuki's.
I'd be very open to trying someone else's custom Manji set for overbends, though.
*The only "con" with the SP20 is not having the ability to flat sand the comb to perfection. I LOVE the SP20 for its playability, tone, and easy of tweaking.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 13, 2014 8:10 AM
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Kingley
3730 posts
Oct 13, 2014
9:02 AM
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"Are you doing the same thing on either harp? I think each harp needs a different touch to take full advantage of the "low hanging fruit" - the stuff that will give the most benefit for the least work."
Andrew, I treat them similarly. With all my harmonicas I mainly tend to gap and lightly emboss them. I only touch the comb if needed. Most combs these days are fairly decent and I don't usually need to work on them. Interestingly enough though I did have to work on the Manji combs a little. I also only do other reed work if a particular harp is problematic. I work on an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" basis with my harps.
"Another example, embossing a Manji will give a performance boost where I would look at doing some reed work on a Marine Band first."
Interesting my experience is again different. I find that lightly embossing Marine Bands makes a big difference, whilst the Manji's I worked on needed a little more embossing to get anywhere near the same results.
I think the Manji is a nice harp and if it was the only harp available to me I'd happily play them. My personal experience is that the Marine Band is better for my style of playing.
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nacoran
8054 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:53 PM
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There is supposed to be a decent harp made in China that doesn't get exported? Or am I misremembering? Something from an old Pat Missin page that I don't have the link for.
Bends made some of the pretties harps. I think they may have sabotaged themselves out of the gate with their name. Bends might have been a great name for a company before the internet era, or maybe even a great name for a market leader in the internet era, but when you typed 'Bends Harmonica' into the search engine they were so far down the list they were impossible to find. (Maybe they should have gone with Bendz?)
What I've heard about the LO's is that they have an exclusive contract just to sell the LO's in the U.S. It's a shame. Since they are already in a lot of music stores you'd think they could squeeze the door open and get some other models in (although they do have several tunings available).
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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STME58
1138 posts
Oct 13, 2014
7:24 PM
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I doubt the Chinese are making 10 hole Richter harp and not exporting it. A blues harp seems to be something of a rarity in China. Some of the music stores I visited had blues harp but most did not. I have probably only been to about 10 music store in china though. A tremolo harp is quite common and people I have talked to from China say they were taught music with this instrument in grade school.
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Bilzharp
33 posts
Oct 13, 2014
8:13 PM
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Aren't Huang harmonicas Chinese? I have a bass harmonica of theirs that I bought years ago and it works fine. I also remember buying a Huang diatonic in the key of A back in Hohner's dark days that worked better than anything else I could find for awhile.
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jbone
1789 posts
Oct 14, 2014
3:48 AM
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I was a faithful little Hohner customer for years. When the MB slipped quality-wise I went to Sp20 and played them for a few years, then as I was blowing out 4 draws I switched again, to Big Rivers, which had affordable reed plates at the time.
Somewhere along the way I tried several brands and models looking for "the" harp. Ultimately I had to clean up my playing style to cut down on killed reeds.
Along the way though, Manji was released and I got one. Contrary to what some feel, I like this harp and have pretty much adopted them as my go to harp. I have several now along with some other Suzuki models. I do still use some Hohners, Sp20, an MB, a Big River or two as either spares or odd keys. My first grab in my case though, is for a Manji usually. These harps are what Hohner should have made the MB into without prompting. Reed alignment, improved brass recipe, a never-swell comb, affordable reed plates, ootb loudness and good tuning, what's not to like?
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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FilipJers
3 posts
Oct 14, 2014
5:17 AM
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Interesting thread.
What is important, is to really try out the instruments in as many situations as possible. Playing loud, play quiet, play at home, play at jams, play at gigs, play in the forest, play in the studio, play amplified, play acoustic, play with different ensembles and other instruments etc.
And really take the time and dedication to play the same model for a long time. Maybe one week only or maybe 1 year - just the same harmonica type.
Every time one switch between harmonicas (model and brand), its like switching between Fender, Gibson and Gretsch, going from Archtop to Telecaster to a modern Ibanez rock guitar.
And of course we should all be happy and curious to try out the harmonicas that we find interesting, and also thankful that there are so many different models available these days.
I have made my choice playing Suzuki and for my artistic needs they are the best.
Best regards,
Filip Jers
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JustFuya
616 posts
Oct 14, 2014
7:47 AM
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Interesting and educational.
I did try a Manji last year and dismissed it quickly. I am still waiting on the new Suzuki harps and I plan to make more of a commitment this time.
I've been trolling around other forums and there is much more happiness in the Suzuki community than I expected. One thing that stands out is customer service. Suzuki has a pretty generous warranty and many who have required service were pleased beyond expectation (naming a couple of Suzuki employees who contribute to this forum).
The welded reed is still a tough pill but the warranty makes it a little easier to swallow. Reed replacement is smoother than I had expected although it's an acquired skill and less intuitive than the Hohner process. They do have a very expensive tool set that makes replacement look easy but I'm not a reed abuser anyway.
Hohner has a much tighter window for returns (60 days) but I was surprised they had one at all. I should have read the fine print long ago. I never before considered sending one back until I popped the covers on a High G CO. I had tossed it on the tweak pile with low priority after a quick noodle. It played enough for me to realize it was a bad choice of key for a project I was doing. I have an ear but no music theory.
Anyway, 5 months later, I finally got a look inside and immediately noticed cosmetic and other manufacturing flaws with my naked eyes. Most glaring were the cover screw clearance holes in the plates. I never noticed before but they 'rework' the holes to 'obround' with an extra hit (from the opposite side....tacky). They pull it off pretty well on all the others I looked at but these were punched noticeably off center. Hohner really needs to invest in a new tool but, nuff said.
It was my first absolute clunker in many years and these things happen. I am too late for the free exchange and that is my bad for not taking even a quick peek before setting it aside.
I look forward to taking the Suzuki harps on a good spin. In any case, my favorite harps will always be professionally customized Marine Bands. No doubt.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Oct 14, 2014 7:48 AM
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Gnarly
1139 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:34 AM
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As the Suzuki employee mentioned in the previous post, I recommend you play the crap out of your Suzukis, since the one year warranty includes reed failure.
The more you play a harp, the better it gets--until it fails.
That's where I come in.
Thank you for your support.
Sincerely,
Gary Lehmann
Suzuki horn smasher
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JustFuya
619 posts
Oct 14, 2014
8:53 PM
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@Gnarly - Too funny. I thought you and Gary were separate people. Nothing like getting credit for the work of 2 men.
These things happen on the web. It's faceless but not heartless.
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A440
223 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:09 PM
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I am surprised to learn the Honhner has only a 60 day warranty! In Europe, the retailer Thomann extends the warranty to 3 years on all products they sell. But I guess when you open a harp and change the gaps, you would void any warranty.
Last Edited by A440 on Oct 14, 2014 11:09 PM
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STME58
1140 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:53 PM
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According to the sign on the display at a local music store, overblowing also voids the Hohner warranty. I wonder if you can tell forensically if a reed failed due to overblowing.
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FilipJers
5 posts
Oct 15, 2014
1:13 AM
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I agree with Gnarly, the more you play a harmonica, the better it gets. Then suddenly it can failure. I have not had any reed failure yet, I have been playing my Suzuki rig for three years, more than 400 gigs and lots of practise hours.
The reeds shape little by little after your playing style and air flow. The embrouche in your mouth and jaw muscles learn and adapt how to play the instrument the best way, the more you play it.
Switching between Special 20 to Manji can be like going from Stratocaster with 011 strings to Telecaster with 013 strings, so its hard and judge what is best.
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JustFuya
620 posts
Oct 15, 2014
1:30 AM
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I understand Hohner has no distinction between blowing a reed or running the harp over with your car.They want it back and will decide to fix or replace. My assumption to correct ratio has plummeted this week so no guarantee from my end.
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SuperBee
2225 posts
Oct 15, 2014
1:43 AM
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I don't believe the harps improve with playing, generally. I agree with Richard Sleigh: the more you play a harmonica, the better you adapt to playing it.
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atty1chgo
1172 posts
Oct 15, 2014
2:36 AM
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I have both Manji's and Special 20's in my harp case. The Manji's are more durable and have a sharper tone, like an MB with the volume turned up. I cannot speak to other models except the Hohner Marine Band, Hohner Pro Harp (which I found to sound great in A, more of a fuller, growling sound) and Suzuki Firebreath, which is a softer tone. I prefer the Manji's because I like the tone to be crisp and clean. As far as price, I'll pay the extra money for a Manji. It's not that much more in the long run. Giving up cigarettes or Starbucks or some other luxury for a month for those who are watching the price is well worth it.
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arzajac
1496 posts
Oct 15, 2014
2:58 AM
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It's interesting that folks (myself included) consistently compare the Manji to the Marine Band 1896.
The Manji more closely resembles the MB Deluxe or Crossover in how it's made (no sharp corners on the covers, comb won't swell, harp put together with screws...) In that class of harp, the Manji is the much cheaper option.
But the instinct is to use the 1896 as the point of reference. I guess that shows how much folks really love the 1896 - despite how it can get criticized for its comb and nails. Do the Deluxe/Crossover even have that much market share? Are they relevant at all?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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MN
349 posts
Oct 15, 2014
3:40 AM
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florida-trader wrote: "A few years back, many were critical of the quality of Hohners, but in recent years, the quality of Hohners is very good. I think we, in the harmonica community, can thank Seydel and Suzuki for that. Seydel and Suzuki make high quality harps and the competition forced Hohner to up their game."
=================
Amen, amen, amen, amen! If I need a harp quickly and end up in a music shop (rather than ordering online), I can choose from a MB Deluxe or Crossover, or Suzuki Manji or Harpmaster, or Seydel Session Steel and know I'll get a harp that's completely satisfying. That wasn't the case at all 20 years ago. Gear wise, has there ever been a better time to be a harmonica nerd!?
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Kingley
3731 posts
Oct 15, 2014
4:17 AM
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"The reeds shape little by little after your playing style and air flow. The embrouche in your mouth and jaw muscles learn and adapt how to play the instrument the best
Switching between Special 20 to Manji can be like going from Stratocaster with 011 strings to Telecaster with 013 strings, so its hard and judge what is best."
Great analogy Filip.
"The Manji more closely resembles the MB Deluxe or Crossover in how it's made (no sharp corners on the covers, comb won't swell, harp put together with screws...) In that class of harp, the Manji is the much cheaper option."
Andrew that isn't the case in the UK. The Manji is more expensive than both the Deluxe and the Crossover. In my opinion the Deluxe offers the best bang for the buck out of all four models (1896, Deluxe, Crossover, Manji). However I think all the other models are also good harps. It just comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. I find that the more I play the Manji, the more I like them. Not enough though to convert me from Hohners (well not yet at least).
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SuperBee
2226 posts
Oct 15, 2014
4:46 AM
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in australia crossover $90, manji $80, Deluxe $70, 1896 $50. ish
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A440
224 posts
Oct 15, 2014
12:40 PM
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How about if we take the "Suzuki vs Hohner" discussion over to chromatics. For example, the SCX-48 and 270 Deluxe are pretty close, price wise. Both get good reviews, but they are pretty different design philosophies. Anyone have experience with chromes from both Suzuki and Hohner? Does one or the other tend to need less maintenance, or stay in tune better? Has Suzuki made significant inroads to Hohner's chromatic market share?
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jbone
1790 posts
Oct 16, 2014
3:46 AM
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I think the Manji pre dates the MB Deluxe and Crossover, like Hohner had to finally spend some effort and market a couple of products to compete with a market Suzuki had already tapped into.
I may have tried a Hohner product like Deluxe or Crossover if Hohner had acted more quickly and responsibly. As it was I had spent a lot of money buying their products and feeling let down by their quality issues for a few YEARS prior to the introduction of Suzuki's Manji. In my book, Hohner could have made a Manji type harp and kept my attention and my business potentially, but Suzuki kicked ass with Manji, and maybe their marketing was better as well. But at the end of the day the improvements made to a MB clone harp- improved comb and covers, superior reed alignment and material, etc etc, won out for me. Since trying out Manji I have also tried out several other Suzuki harps. Most of which have been very well built, a couple of cheapies of which I didn't care much about.
Just one man's opinion.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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harpwrench
925 posts
Oct 16, 2014
5:52 AM
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Jbone the MBD came out in 2005. Manji and x-over surfaced at about the same time in 2009 IIRC.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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HarpNinja
3965 posts
Oct 16, 2014
7:02 AM
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I agree with harpwrench. '05 for the MBD and '09 for the Manji and XO.
I haven't worked on a ton of Manji's - maybe a few dozen? The combs are always really warped, and I've frequently noticed bumps from the self tapping screws that need to be sanded down as well (or fixed via a countersink).
When it came out, the Manji boasted the tightest slot tolerances, but I have no idea how that compares to current production Hohner harps.
IMO, the way the reeds sit on the reed plate have a negative impact on playability, but can definitely be fixed by shaping the reed. They do seem to stay in tune very well, and I don't dislike the tone.
I find the reedplates to be harder to work on compared to Hohners too...like literally harder. They also extend quite a ways out from the comb, which cane be uncomfortable. The reedplates require more elbow grease to sand the edges to mate well with the comb.
Matt Smart says these are his favorite harps to work with, but I don't get it. I am willing to fully admit to the fact I am not a Manji expert by any means and others like Matt and harpwrench have a lot more background, etc.
The only "custom" Manji I have ever tried (set up by someone else) was one set up for Howard Levy at SPAH several years ago. It played great, but it had obviously been worked on at length.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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