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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
!"amateur"! are some pros merely Pretentious?
!"amateur"! are some pros merely Pretentious?
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Frank
5222 posts
Sep 05, 2014
6:36 PM
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If someone called you an amateur, would you be offended?
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Georgia Blues
125 posts
Sep 05, 2014
6:45 PM
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No. Talent is only part of the equation. Doing the work of being " out there" night after night, devoting your life to your art, is what separates pros from amateurs. I will always happily defer to the artist who is making that choice.
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Alex
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A440
194 posts
Sep 05, 2014
10:07 PM
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In Europe, to be an "amateur" means that you are passionate about something, and spend a lot of time doing it. Its a hobby and probably an obsession. So not an offensive word.
In the US, "amateur" means you don't earn your living doing something, like a "professional". It should not mean that the professional is superior to the amateur. Some amateurs are better than professionals, but the majority are probably less accomplished. Amateurs might be jealous of professionals, since the pros have combined their passion with their job, or seem to have more time available to practice. Pros might be jealous of amateurs, because they have steady income, careers, or don't live on the road. The fact of the matter is, its difficult to make a decent living as a professional musician. Yes, there are a handful of "pop stars" making obscene amounts of money, but probably 90% of pro musicians are just scraping by. Even some famous musicians who sold a lot of records in the 1970s-1990s, and made good money then, are now struggling on low income with poor health insurance coverage.
I'm proud to be an amateur. I love playing music, regardless of how talented or accomplished I am. Its a journey and I am progressing. I play in a band 2-3 times a month. Some people think I'm pretty good, and after shows people come up to compliment me on my playing. But in fact I'm an intermediate on Adam's scale, like so many other amateurs.
I have personally met 2 pro harp players in my life, and neither looked down his nose and called me an "amateur". On the contrary, they were delighted to meet someone who played harp. So I think a real professional would never call someone an "amateur".
Last Edited by A440 on Sep 05, 2014 10:50 PM
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cliffy
108 posts
Sep 06, 2014
6:13 AM
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Very few people, I think, are really professional harmonica players, and most are probably amateurs or "elite amateurs".
How do we define professional? I have been paid to record tracks for some local artists's recordings (though not very much) and I get paid when I play gigs, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself a professional. Maybe I make $200 a month in the best months -- and there have only even been a few of those. Hardly enough to eat with. It would be like saying I am a professional golfer during the one day a year I play golf at my company's amputee golf tournament; I'm on the clock, so technically I'm getting paid, but not for my abilities as a golfer (I suck).
If you make most of the money you live off of by playing or teaching, then you are probably a professional. If you can only do that because your spouse has a great job with benefits, I'd say you are probably not a professional harmonicist. I would say a pro could at least definitely support himself, and maybe, the top pros could support a family, too.
Or maybe, to be considered a professional rather than amateur, you need to make at least a substantial effort and earn something substantial or make a significant contribution to the harmonica community. Adam, for example, is a professor at a university and an author and my not-educated-at-all guess is that he makes the bulk of his living from his academic job and not from playing. That said, he also hosts the major forum on blues harp, has a whole teaching curriculum, and organizes a large harmonica seminar. So his case seems to be more complicated... I think he qualifies as a professional, though maybe the numbers might put him at "elite amateur" status.
Adam, that was meant in a nice way, I hope you are not offended by my suppositions. :)
So I think that most of us are more amateur than professional.
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GMaj7
519 posts
Sep 06, 2014
8:50 AM
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Good topic..
Probably not a good idea to be in this business and get offended by comments made by others..
I would call that a misplaced identity..
There is a name for those who don't take the opinions of others too seriously.. "innovators"..
You may have heard of a few of them.. Abe Lincoln, Willie Nelson, Beethoven,
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Kingley
3688 posts
Sep 06, 2014
9:10 AM
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To answer Franks opening question. No I wouldn't be offended at all and here's why.
A professional is classed as someone who makes the bulk of their income from whatever they do. In this case playing the harmonica. There are relatively few people who make the bulk of their money from playing gigs/recording on the harmonica. Kim Wilson, Rick Estrin and Charlie Musselwhite immediately come to mind as people who are classes as professional harmonica players. There are of course others too.
Then there are some people who probably make the bulk of their money from teaching harmonica. Dave Barrett and Ronnie Shellist amongst others come to mind as examples in that field. They are not professional harmonica players per se. They are professional harmonica teachers. In the same way that a science teacher in a school is not strictly speaking a "scientist", but is in reality a science teacher.
The there are people who probably make the bulk of their money from harmonica technician work. Joe Spiers is a great example of that. They are professional harmonica technicians.
All of the rest, regardless of what they wish to call themselves are strictly speaking amateurs or hobbyists. You could use the term semi-pro for some of them, but in reality there still amateurs or hobbyists.
Whether you have been a professional at a previous point in life (as Adam has) is immaterial really. You are then an ex-professional harmonica player/teacher/technician, etc. The only real professional harmonica players are the people who gig and use the gig money and record sales as their main source of income.
Last Edited by Kingley on Sep 06, 2014 9:11 AM
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kudzurunner
4936 posts
Sep 06, 2014
1:25 PM
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I'm not trying to hijack the thread away from its touchy-feely origins in "feelings," but I disagree somewhat with my friend Kingley about what it means to be professional--although I very much like his parsing of harmonica professionalism into three broad areas: playing, teaching, and making/customizing/repairing.
To call somebody a pro doesn't, in my book, mean that they are necessarily, right now, making the bulk of their income from the activity--at least not when you're talking about the blues. My friend Trip Henderson is a professional harmonica player, which is to say, he's a pro, but he makes most of his living a meeting and event planner for public television stations, major museums, and the like, and has done so as long as I've known him.
He's a pro because he's capable of handling any gig that I might happen to throw him in a smooth, energetic, anxiety-free, and accomplished way. He has played so many gigs, of so many kinds, over such a long period of time, that I have 100% confidence in what he could do: teaching gig, club gig, studio work, whatever. In fact, that's how he and I used each other back in the 1990s.
In the skilled blue-collar trades, a pro is....your fellow pro. Somebody you would choose as your sub because he can talk the talk, walk the walk, and make you look good for having chosen him.
The US Department of Labor has its own definition of professionalism and some of it is relevant here:
http://www.dol.gov/odep/topics/youth/softskills/Professionalism.pdf
Skill at workplace communication is essential. To some extent, a pro is merely somebody who is recognized as such by other pros. That sounds like circular reasoning, but if you've ever rubbed shoulders with professional musicians, you know that, like all subcultures, they have certain shorthand ways of communicating based on common experience on bandstands, in studios, in teaching labs, with fans, etc. They sniff each other out.
So I disagree with Kingley's claim that the category "blues professional" is ultimately all about how you're making most of your money right now. If Rick Estrin put it all aside--all the traveling, all the playing--and chose to spend his time reconditioning classic cars in somebody else's shop (and many blues players have other moneymaking skills of that sort), he'd still be a pro in my book. He could, if he wished, come out of retirement on a moment's notice and play any gig he was handed--even if he hadn't touched a harp in months. He'd probably still have his professional tools (harps, mic, amp), since the majority of skilled tradesmen hang onto their tools. He'd have all of the acquired knowledge necessary, all the communications skills, required to assemble a band and prep for the gig. That's what it means to be a pro. It's like being a doctor. We don't say that somebody is an ex-doctor when they retire--or when they go into politics, as Rand Paul has done. They're always a doctor. Rand Paul, as far as I can tell, makes the bulk of his money these days from his work as a Senator. But he's still a doctor: a pro, with all that that implies and entails.
I use the word amateur, generally, when I'm referring to a newbie or relative newbie, somebody who clearly loves the thing they're doing (the word "love," as in amore, is at the root of amateur), isn't very good at it (yet), and isn't particularly concerned with mastering the various elements of the discipline that might lead one to being able to play music for money with a group of experienced players. But a certain number of amateurs feel the pull of what it might mean to be a pro, and they start asking themselves questions about what it might mean to move in that direction. And a certain subset of THOSE players ultimately, after lots of experience and various sorts of credentialing moments and gigs--some of which surely feel like passing through the gates of hell--have the right to consider themselves pros. I'd submit that at least 90% of the players listed on this site's Top-20 and honorable mention lists fall into that category.
In my other life as a college professor, to my continuing amazement, I am a salaried professional. I belong to a professional organization; I help credential other professionals by sitting on committees that award M.A. and Ph.D. degrees. The word "amateur," in my line of work, is obviously a slap in the face--a synonym for quack, an accusation of incompetence.
An amateur ornithologist is a bird-watcher, often a highly skilled and experienced one, but without a university degree in avian biology or zoology. The world of bird-watchers seems to be run by extremely skilled amateurs, and it works quite well.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 06, 2014 1:34 PM
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Ted Burke
169 posts
Sep 07, 2014
12:25 PM
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I keep the distinctions between amatuer and professional simple and sweet; the pro is one who gets paid, regardless of skill set or what the payment does for his bank account. The amateur is someone who isn't, by and large, paid. Likewise, the skill set isn't important, at least not by my distinction. My skills , I believe, at a professional level to play with a union-scale blues band, solid enough for session work and consistent enough for touring. That said, let's say that I am a non-professional player with better than average abilities on the instrument.
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"I don't play too fast. You're listening too slow."
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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Frank
5232 posts
Sep 07, 2014
12:39 PM
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This is the question being asked :)
If someone called you an amateur, would you be offended?
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Ted Burke
170 posts
Sep 07, 2014
12:50 PM
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If they meant it financially, no.
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"I don't play too fast. You're listening too slow."
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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JustFuya
456 posts
Sep 07, 2014
1:15 PM
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I have certain skill sets in which I'm very confident of my ability. Others skills vary but I think I'm a pretty good judge of myself. No matter how good I am, I am never perfect so input is always welcome and I'll take the good as well as the bad.
I don't take offense to negative input unless it is delivered with hostility (ie via flying beer bottles).
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Bilzharp
16 posts
Sep 07, 2014
1:28 PM
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"If someone called you an amateur, would you be offended?"
Quite frankly, yes. The dictionary meaning isn't offensive, but if someone came up to me after a gig and called me an amateur it would obviously be meant as a put down. On the other hand, I certainly don't insist on being called a professional. If you think that music has to be your main source of income to be called a professional, I'm cool with that. Just as long as somebody pays me at the end of the night! ;)
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mastercaster
78 posts
Sep 08, 2014
4:09 AM
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Naw , won't get pissed off .. would just tell them laughingly to piss off ....
all kidding aside .. my skills are enough above the Advanced Intermediate Level defined here .. have been performing for a long time and still do play/perform with several groups in my area regularly .. with good to great crowd responses ..
I'd laugh it off & wouldn't let it bother me ..
they obviously wouldn't have a clue between pro or amateur level of accomplishment ..
Why do you ask Frank ?? You been performing, someone bad rap ya ?
Can't figure anyone commenting on your harp playing as amateur ....
Last Edited by mastercaster on Sep 08, 2014 4:30 AM
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Bilzharp
17 posts
Sep 08, 2014
5:49 AM
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"won't get pissed off .. would just tell them laughingly to piss off ...."
True. It ain't like fightin' words. I would take it as the insult it was intended - from someone who probably has more issues than me. Not worth getting in a wad over.
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ridge
546 posts
Sep 08, 2014
6:17 AM
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Brian Fellow is NOT an accredited zoologist, nor does he hold an advanced degree any of the environmental sciences.
He is simply an enthusiastic young man with a sixth-grade education and an abiding love for all God's creatures.
Brian Fellow's Safari Planet
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Ridge's YouTube
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The Iceman
2027 posts
Sep 08, 2014
6:25 AM
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dunno. never been called an amateur
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The Iceman
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Frank
5237 posts
Sep 08, 2014
7:27 AM
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Surely you've been called "vainglorious" Larry :)
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The Iceman
2028 posts
Sep 08, 2014
7:45 AM
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nope. just reporting my experience.
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The Iceman
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Frank
5238 posts
Sep 08, 2014
8:18 AM
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That's why your the "ICEMAN" :)
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Diggsblues
1537 posts
Sep 08, 2014
11:42 AM
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I am totally pretentious.
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Frank
5244 posts
Sep 09, 2014
1:09 PM
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Diggs, spoken like a true Master - Amateurs only go half way, Pros do it TOTALLY or not at all :)
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