kudzurunner
4883 posts
Aug 21, 2014
5:02 AM
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A contentious subject! If you search YouTube for help, you'll find a handful of videos, at least one of which comments on the others, and two of which have been posted in the past few months:
I've always started on 2d, not 3b, and I don't inflect the 3d quite as hard as most. (I scoop it--wuuaghhhh!--rather than making it two very quick notes.) I his the 36b octave, not the 69b that some players insist on.
What do you do? Please discuss and post other teaching videos that you track down.
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kudzurunner
4884 posts
Aug 21, 2014
5:10 AM
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Since it's inevitable that this thread will see performance as well as teaching videos, I'll request that performance videos be from pros, not developing players, and in that line, I'll post one from Mark Hummel--a historian of the instrument--that surprised me with how relaxed a tempo he chose. He also hits the upper octave, not the middle octave, at one interesting moment partway in. He's clearly trying for what some have called the deep groove here.
Actually, here's another favorite: Rick Estrin. Tempo is a little faster. It takes a very good band NOT to speed up when you've got a guy like Rick swinging hell out of the thing up front. I think these guys speed up a little:
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 21, 2014 5:12 AM
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Little roger
11 posts
Aug 21, 2014
5:25 AM
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Wow! It's a strange world we harp players inhabit. I have NEVER thought about how to play that lick before. I must have played it thousands of times and it has always been the most natural way to play the lick. 2d, 3d slightly bent up into the note - purely because that's the easiest way. I think it is extremely unlikely that LW played a 3b in this lick. The standard lick of 2d 3d (bent up) 4d (held), 4d, 4d bend, 3d 2d 2d (Bill Clarke's bread and butter) is so ubiquitous that the standard pentatonic run in Juke is a natural extension of this.
Maybe it's just me, but the 3b sounds and feels different to 2d. I only use it in runs and almost never as the root note stop.
Still, if it works for you....
R
Last Edited by Little roger on Aug 21, 2014 5:25 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1012 posts
Aug 21, 2014
5:36 AM
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About the 3blow
I have been using the Filisko lessons for a student. I have been impressed how frequently Joe recommends the 3blow. Though I have not counted, I believe he uses the 3 blow more than the 2draw in his tabs.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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tmf714
2682 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:05 AM
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Last Edited by tmf714 on Aug 21, 2014 8:21 AM
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Little roger
12 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:15 AM
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Needless to say, just because someone publishes online what they think LW played, doesn't make it so. Same goes for what I say, of course ;-)
This could morph into a thread about when to use the 3b ;-)
Re the octave. At the end of the lick, I would always use the 3/6 octave but do go up from that octave in octaves to 6/9 at points for effect. I don't hear LW doing it, however. I think the fact that the 6 blow is dominant in the 3/6 octave at the end of the lick is eithe down to his playing (he tongue-blocks a chord "thump" with 6b open rather than playing a clean octave) or simply what the little amp spat out.
Last Edited by Little roger on Aug 21, 2014 6:17 AM
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yogi
72 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:23 AM
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Joes teaching materials are excellent. I would respectfully suggest that they are not published here with his permission. You may well have it little roger in which case pay no attention to this post.
I say this because Joe produces his materials and they are a source of income.
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chromaticblues
1602 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:48 AM
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When ever I hear someone play the last part as an octave it doesn't sound right to me. I makes it to fat (IMHO).
I think it sounds better as a tongue slap.
I do like the idea of sliding up to the 6-9 octave.
That's a cool little lick I picked up of a Charlie Musselwhite song.
Also another thing that can be done (just to add another dimension to it) is play the 6 blow and quickly/smoothly bend it up into an overblow and quickly releasing it keeping the same time.
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groyster1
2655 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:58 AM
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its really not difficult at all to do the repeating riffx8 to juke....
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kudzurunner
4885 posts
Aug 21, 2014
7:00 AM
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I think that Joe would be OK with what tmf has done in this particular case, but I'd ask tmf to please supply a link to Joe's website, so that people may, for example, purchase the entire tab/lesson for "Juke," they want.
But yes, Joe's tabs are like my tabs: He works hard on them, they're precise, and (as far as I know) he charges for them. So it's a judgment call. I'm OK with leaving it here, but only if there's also a link to a purchase-point for his other materials.
On second thought, perhaps it would be better if only the portion of the tab sheet that concerns the opening riff had been posted.
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tmf714
2683 posts
Aug 21, 2014
8:24 AM
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Out of respect to Joe -photo edited.
Joe would be ok with this version as I am relatively sure the first as well. This material was not provided to me by Joe-it was included as some of the material from a seminar I attended in 2007. Joe personally agreed to let the teacher use the material in the photo. To those who are not aware,this material has been circulating for a number of years,but knowing Joe personally,I have only included the opening riff,which I believe is the correct way to play "Juke"-the rest of the lesson is outstanding-don't kid yourself by thinking you have "Juke" nailed down just because you have the opening riff down.
Link to Joes store-http://www.filiskostore.com/
Last Edited by tmf714 on Aug 21, 2014 8:33 AM
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WinslowYerxa
699 posts
Aug 21, 2014
10:42 AM
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You can say that he "scoops" it, in that the pitch is in motion from the bent note to the unbent note.
However, I still hear two distinct articulations.
I don't hear Da - wadd-le-a - dee-deet!
Instead I hear an extra note initiation in that flurry in the middle:
Da - wadd-le-a-dah - dee-deet!
I've always heard it and it always struck me, so when I slowed it down, sure enough, that "scoop" is audible as a distinct note.
If you play it with the four articulations, you'll sound more like Little Walter. A lot of his magic is in these weird, unexpected, and sometimes counter-intuitive details.
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Winslow
SPAH connects the world of harmonica
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Aug 21, 2014 10:45 AM
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barbequebob
2689 posts
Aug 21, 2014
10:47 AM
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What Winslow is talking about when he refers to scooping it is a technique borrowed from horn players and it's how they often fall in and out of certain notes and you gotta really have the articulation of that to be really smooth or it's a total mess.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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atty1chgo
1074 posts
Aug 21, 2014
12:57 PM
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Does "Son Of Juke" count?
Billy Branch opens every show with Son Of Juke. He stays pretty traditional with it well into the song.
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harpoon_man
69 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:01 PM
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If one wants to play it like Walter did, you have to start on the 2 draw, and articulate the bent and unbent 3 draw as distinct notes (I agree with Winslow). Then 4 draw and 5 blow (I have never seen this part be disputed). And finally, it's a 3-6 blow octave at the end of the riff.
I've been pontificating for years around here to the local harp players that the above details are what separate the men from the boys so to speak on playing Juke.
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kudzurunner
4886 posts
Aug 21, 2014
6:23 PM
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Here's how Billy Branch dealt with the subject at Hill Country Harmonica 2010:
For me, the most interesting thing about his performance is the way he wrenches the harp away from his mouth to emphasize the groove. I KNOW that BBQ Bob appreciates this. Billy has a specific way of making the groove happen. Each player does this differently.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 21, 2014 6:31 PM
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atty1chgo
1079 posts
Aug 21, 2014
7:28 PM
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Here is some more from the same performance on that first HCH morning.
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Gipsy
92 posts
Aug 22, 2014
1:00 AM
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Just a thought. How many times did lLittle Walter play Juke? Hundred's or even thousands of times? He owned this piece. Do you think he ever played it exactly the same way twice. I suspect he may have had many more variations up his sleeve than he revealed on his recorded versions.
Why the obsession with trying to reproduce or understand just one version?
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Rarko
126 posts
Aug 22, 2014
1:47 AM
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Ok, simple question : How many notes you play in that riff? Jerry Portnoy says - Little Walter played 7 notes. A lot Of guys play 6 notes. The missing note is 3 hole draw full step.
3B,3D'',3D,4D,5B,36B,36B.all TB (Adam, when you play it, you tongue block from 4 draw, right?)
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Little roger
13 posts
Aug 22, 2014
2:23 AM
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I really don't think this particularly important and agree that LW would probably have played this many different ways. We only look at it in such detail because we have this one recording. And tbh most of us should maybe be concentrating on other elements of our playing / performance ;-)... However....,
I'll come down on one side of the fence. I would never have done this but I slowed it right down with an app that doesn't change the pitch and I do not hear the "ghost" note (3d bent). What I hear is a slight bend up into the 3d, which is obviously very common in blues and jazz.
Re tongue-blocking in the post above. I tongue-block the entire lick. In fact, I always tb unless there is a reason not to.
R
Last Edited by Little roger on Aug 22, 2014 2:27 AM
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Milsson
142 posts
Aug 22, 2014
7:44 AM
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I've slowed it down and you can CLEARLY hear 7 notes. Then i played it back with an analysing soft ware and you can CLEARLY see 7! notes. BUT the flat third to third are not "articulated" like the other notes but you can clearly see its two notes that he slides between and they are dead on pitch.
And thats the end of that... For me it doesn matter how you play it as long as it swings!
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tmf714
2684 posts
Aug 22, 2014
7:49 AM
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Do you play "Juke" slowed down? Hardly-it's six notes with a slide up to the three draw-if the notes are dead on pitch its still the same note ,correct? If you are talking beats to the notes,there may be a "ghost" or "slight note"-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Aug 22, 2014 7:50 AM
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harpoon_man
70 posts
Aug 22, 2014
10:41 AM
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@ Milsson - I think I agree with you; I clearly hear 7 notes. The transition from the bent 3 draw to the unbent note is legato/not tongued, but they are played as separate notes IMO, and it is not merely a scoop or ghost note into the unbent 3 draw.
Maybe I could have put a finer point on this in my previous post if I would have said that one needs to "play" the bent and unbent 3 draw as distinct notes instead of "articulate" since the articulation is not a tongued note attack.
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Milsson
143 posts
Aug 22, 2014
10:49 AM
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I knew tmf would not take kindly to this. But the notes are played equaly in time. Root... 1.2.3.4...root....root.
If what your saying is rigth then you could play everything but 5b and it's still the juke riff?
Listen and learn!
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Milsson
144 posts
Aug 22, 2014
10:52 AM
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it just makes seense to play it like that. Else you have to make a pause on the 3d before you go to 4d now it is just a fluid stream of notes..
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1847
2079 posts
Aug 22, 2014
11:18 AM
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Why the obsession with trying to reproduce or understand just one version?
at the end of the day does it matter how you play it?
nope....
however the devil is in the details
the better you get discerning the little nuances
the larger your vocabulary.
if you start on the 2 draw
learn from the 3 blow, not too hard
if you didn't scoop the note before
learn how.
if you have never tongue blocked the upper octave like dan showed you, learn that too!
now you have a half dozen ways to say the same thing.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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harpoon_man
71 posts
Aug 22, 2014
2:00 PM
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@1847: good points - agreed that it doesn't really matter how you play it, and I don't think I have ever performed Juke in public. However, as you note, listening very closely and learning the classic recording note for note can help expand one's vocabulary and technique, and I think it is extremely helpful in that regard.
There may also be some value in learning the definitive versions of Juke and other Little Walter standards note-for-note in terms of being able to instantly establish your credibility with other harp players and other blues players in general. For instance, I did a sit-in with a blues band several months ago where the host harp player didn't know me and actually started to give me pointers on how to grip his JT30 when he handed it off to me. The band called My Babe, and I played Walter's opening figure note-for-note, and the host harp player gave me a big smile and a nod, realizing that I had done my homework and knew what I was doing. I played my own stuff from there, but was glad I showed some LW fundamentals right out of the gate to assure the host harp player that I wouldn't be likely to drop his microphone or make his band look bad. This kind of thing might also work if you were trying out for a spot in a band.
The one tune I have replicated completely note-for-note in a performance was William Clarke's Blowin' the Family Jewels, and I did that regularly as a tribute piece and a set closer with my old band. My hope with that was that someone in the audience might make a mental note and then go buy some William Clark albums after the show.
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tmf714
2688 posts
Aug 22, 2014
8:03 PM
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I don't need to listen and learned-I learned it from one of the top harmonica players alive-
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Mirco
189 posts
Aug 23, 2014
12:17 AM
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David Barrett thinks it's a 2 draw and a 3-6 octave. He thinks the presence of the 9+ tone is due to Little Walter's amplifier. See his tab:
"Juke" Tab by David Barrett
He also has an online article dissecting the song here:
"Juke" by David Barrett
Last Edited by Mirco on Aug 23, 2014 12:18 AM
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chromaticblues
1604 posts
Aug 23, 2014
3:31 AM
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Tmf and Millson your both right. Your just saying it differently.
Is it not obvious he was trying to play the major pentatonic scale! Sounds like he hits a little above the minor 3rd and quickly releases to the 3 draw.
It flows like that. Is it 6 or 7 notes?
I think it falls under just know what he did and play it. If it doesn't fit your style play what's comfortable for you!
I totally disagree with ending it as an octave.
I think it sounds much better as a tongue slap 6 blow.
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kudzurunner
4890 posts
Aug 23, 2014
4:31 AM
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First of all, it's clear that I was right: this is a contentious subject! If we can agree on nothing else, all of us should be able to agree on that.
@Mirco: I didn't know that Barrett thought that, but I've always thought the same thing: 2 draw, 36 octave, with the 9+ tone basically a harmonic produced by the mic/amp combo.
@chromatic blues: I actually agree with you. Although I had assumed that my own version terminated in a 36 octave, when I actually played it, I discovered that I was MOSTLY muting the 3 blow, allowing my tongue to slide partly over that hole, and therefore playing mostly the 6 blow. I agree with you.
My own feeling is that "the modern," if one can define that term, is always about smoothing, streamlining, speeding up. LW's playing, in its own time, was certainly about that, considered in broad stylistic terms. By the same token, LW also was unique in the way he threw unexpected, angular little runs into stuff that most other players would have played in simpler ways. Still, when it comes to Juke, the key thing about that opening riff is that that second note (or third note, if you think it's more than a scoop), is an unbent 3 draw smack on the beat. However you play it, you need to execute it in a way that contributes to the forward momentum of the entire riff. If you try to cram in a seventh note--i.e., as a second note played the way Winslow and several others say, just ahead of the 3d, you need to make sure that you're not interrupting that flow.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 23, 2014 4:32 AM
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kudzurunner
4891 posts
Aug 23, 2014
4:37 AM
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Here's Aki's version, which I love. At a certain point he just takes off and makes up a new version which is completely in LW's style, and yet brand-new. Listen to the drums, too.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 23, 2014 4:40 AM
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MP
3256 posts
Aug 23, 2014
12:40 PM
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Ok, Aki wins! Best version of Juke I've ever heard.
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
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tmf714
2689 posts
Aug 23, 2014
1:42 PM
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Aki is playing Joe Filiskos version of the opening riff-
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1847
2082 posts
Aug 23, 2014
2:35 PM
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and it sounds like he is using a crystal element also.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Harp2swing
150 posts
Aug 23, 2014
5:44 PM
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Flávio Guimarães does an excellent job of it.
Juke starts @28 secs in....
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1847
2084 posts
Aug 24, 2014
2:13 PM
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flavio gets my vote.
he is the real deal
i think it was him, i met one time.
he did not speak to much english.
once again a jt 30, no chevy engine there
pure jag.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Jim Rumbaugh
1013 posts
Aug 24, 2014
5:59 PM
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Just a point of contention I have.
This famous blues song riff is the major pentatonic scale, not the standard blues scale.
No wonder it takes some people a long time to learn how to play the blues.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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barbequebob
2690 posts
Aug 25, 2014
1:22 PM
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Here's Little Walter's alternate take of Juke:
During the 70's when I started out, I absolutely hated playing Juke because most bands were playing it so groovelessly, with far too many bands playing far ahead of the beat and rushing the hell out of it and the groove never swung at all. However, while I was gigging with Jimmy Rogers, he requested that I play it with him, which I did so gladly, as he's on the original Little Walter recording and it was a pleasure because right off the bat, everything grooved and swung like mad.
Billy Branch, Aki Kumar and the great Brazillian harpman Flavio Guimaraes all have one thing in common here and that's the groove swings like hell and all three groove like hell and I can't listen to the way many players too often do it because I hear people just playing notes and not grooving and that's such a huge part of the tune. The drummer in Aki Kumar's band's playing reminds me of Willie Dixon's long time drummer Clifton James, one of the all time blues drumming greats.
The last part of the opening riff has to also have a slightly percussive feel to it, which most players usually don't get at all.
@Jim Rumbaugh -- I wouldn't quite say major pentatonic scale because the major pentatonic scale doesn't use a 6th, LW most certainly does use a 6th and the 6th swings a helluva lot more than a 7th does and a 7th is gonna be far more commonly used in a major pentatonic scale.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1952 posts
Aug 25, 2014
1:35 PM
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Bob,
scale degrees of major pentatonic scale...
1, 2, 3, 5, 6
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The Iceman
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jnorem
545 posts
Aug 25, 2014
5:44 PM
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Is there a western scale that doesn't include the 6th? I can't think of one. I could always Google it.
Jim Rumbaugh is exactly right. The lick is a major pentatonic scale.
Edit: Well, not exactly. :)
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Aug 26, 2014 2:26 PM
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12gagedan
307 posts
Aug 26, 2014
7:18 AM
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Dear Harmonica friends,
As my vid is at the top of the thread, I suppose I'll add to the madness: My video presents the Juke first-riff options as I hear them and have heard them debated online for the last 20-years. I intentionally don't speak in absolutes.
I've listened to Juke thousands of times. LW grounds me. The more I listen, the more details I hear, yet the less sure I am. That sounds counter-intuitive, but that's the thing with something so complex in its subtlety.
I'd caution those of you who are "sure" you know what he played. A lot of folks have debated these licks for a long damn time! I say keep an open mind and try it every way you can. Maybe you'll become a stronger player for it.
On the subject of 2D/3B: I'm a 2D guy. I just am. It's where I go 95% of the time vs. 3B. As a result, I was inclined for years to believe that Walter must have started on 2D. However, something happened a few years back, and I started thinking about the 3B to start that lick. It flows easily to me (even as a committed 2D guy) that I can't help but allow for the possibility that Walter might have played 3B.
Recently, I've been hanging out with Annie Raines (who uses 3B a lot more than I do) and I've been performing Whammer Jammer (MD uses lots of 3B). Both experiences don't "confirm" anything to me. They make me want to open up my thinking to allow the possibility (again, just a possibility) that 3B may be lurking in places I never thought to look because I'm so 2D-biased.
I only hear the 3-6 blow with overtones, but it's fun to jump to the 6-9. There was so much controversy around the 3-6 vs. 6-9, that I had to mention both.
Dan G.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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sean
1 post
Aug 26, 2014
8:42 AM
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That's some nice playing by Aki
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PropMan
18 posts
Aug 26, 2014
10:15 AM
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I think that the "fluidity" of opening riff really depends on weather you're lipping it or tongue blocking. When tongue blocking I think the 3B is far more fluid and feel the 2D feels more natural when lipping.
I tongue block everything except the 1D bent and the 6OB (the only OB I ever use--and I'm pretty lousy at it), and always start "Juke" with the 3B:
3B, 3D whole step bend, 3D, 4D, 5B, 3-6B, 3-6B
Last Edited by PropMan on Aug 26, 2014 10:17 AM
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