Frank
4913 posts
Jul 25, 2014
2:05 PM
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TOPIC...musicians who talk a good game, but can't deliver the goods when the rubber hits the road and they got to show what they got... chops wise,> timing wise,> phrasing wise, >rhythm wise,> tone wise, >positions wise,> etc ?
Do you know any musicians like that? Any stories or insights you would like to interject?
What would you call a player like that? - when they can dance on the talk - but trip, stall and stumble on the walk....
We have the notorious "Gus" !!!
Is there a name for the musician who talks themselves up, only to be unable to back it up when they need to?
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 25, 2014 2:49 PM
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KingoBad
1506 posts
Jul 25, 2014
2:25 PM
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Oh, this should be pleasant....
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Danny
Last Edited by KingoBad on Jul 25, 2014 2:26 PM
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Diggsblues
1470 posts
Jul 25, 2014
2:50 PM
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Ok I can talk the talk and walk the pork.
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JustFuya
356 posts
Jul 25, 2014
4:35 PM
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There has been some recent discussion of presumptuous players who walk into a gig with a bandelero or a trunk full of top notch harps and mics and fail to deliver. I don't fault them for having deep pockets but I wait until I hear them play before I expand on my preconceived notions. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised.
I used to hustle pool and applied the same prejudice. I was more wary of the player that grabbed a stick from the house rack than I was of the one who brought a breakdown cue in a case.
I've never promoted myself as a superior musical talent and always employed a low key presentation; just enough talk to get me in the door.
That being said, I have only recently started video recording my woodshed efforts. I'm appalled. I wonder if I always sounded that imperfect or if my one year hiatus from the stage has made me stale. Did practicing and performing with live musicians inspire me to up my game? I dunno. My ego is intact but has a bruise in the shape of a question mark.
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Littoral
1126 posts
Jul 25, 2014
5:03 PM
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Not quite the topic but I tire of the guys who get their feelings hurt, pack up and just go home. Or they'll offer up "I got my own style" but can't actually articulate single notes. This past weekend it was "Oh, I've got fancy cases at home but I just prefer my cigar box", while my old tweed case, finally the way I want it after decades of trying, is on the table.
Oh well. Vent complete.
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Frank
4918 posts
Jul 25, 2014
5:08 PM
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The "ego" is a trip - does anyone understand it?
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JInx
825 posts
Jul 25, 2014
6:15 PM
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This is a profound thread! Very daring, setting up for a real deal bluea ass ream. could we some of you pros do a good ream job?! This is essential, we need to take it first hand. Now come on!
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JustFuya
359 posts
Jul 25, 2014
7:14 PM
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I'm not criticizing anyone's packaging. Not too long ago I commented on a video where the guy was fumbling with a 'bag-o-harps'. There was some criticism that it looked unprofessional. I agree but I was 'that guy' at one time.
Last summer I was using a guitar case that housed my harps, a mic and a flute. The guitar sat at home. I did not want to be the guy that walked in and said, without playing a note, "I'm going to blow your socks off with my harp playing". I needed a feel for the band (contentious drunks) and the room before pulling out my tool. That was my insecurity and my approach to the comfort zone.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jul 25, 2014 7:33 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
345 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:55 PM
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"presumptuous players who walk into a gig with a bandelero or a trunk full of top notch harps and mics and fail to deliver"
I have never encountered that scene. I have heard some rough players, but never thought they believed they were better than they actually were. I hope I am not perceived to be that player, but I guess you never know what people think unless they want to discuss the matter.
I wonder? I go to the jam with my Ultimate 57, my recently acquired '59 Clone and 20 or so top-of-the-line harps. Did I deliver? Hell no. I played along with the band to the best of my ability at that time & place. I got 30 more minutes of stage experience under my belt.
Some people said I sounded good. Maybe I am so bad it's a comical parody and they just say that so I keep coming back and making a fool of myself.
Pass the acid, Frank.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jul 25, 2014 8:56 PM
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Diggsblues
1472 posts
Jul 26, 2014
4:14 AM
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There are players that are pros that I don't think play that well. People hold them up as gods but to me it's a
lot of "The Emperor's New Clothes".
I've named names in the past and people wanted to
chop my head off. One guy one here asked,"How do I
get better tone?" I told him stop playing.
Yeah I've seen lots of guys with more harmonics than you could imagine at jams that sucked big time and they
thought we were harmonica brothers. It made me wanna puke.
As a union co-chair I have enough fights with grievances, arbitrations and unfair labor practices so
I think I'll pass this time.
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Wendell
30 posts
Jul 26, 2014
5:02 AM
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Blowhards. As a performer you present yourself as confident and capable, and, humble about your limits.
I remember one enthusiastic newbie at a jam, all hat no cattle, asked Jon Ross how his playing sounded. Jon looked at him with a big smile and said "your sound grates !"
Last Edited by Wendell on Jul 26, 2014 5:14 AM
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Steamrollin Stan
781 posts
Jul 26, 2014
5:25 AM
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Went to a pub years ago, standard r&b band good mostly, I remember the harp guy was a bit good but repetitive, I look back and all he did was the 2 draw bent and natural, kinda dumb now I think about it, but he thought he was grrrreat, ego??
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jbone
1704 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:14 AM
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I've been "that guy". Granted it's been many years, but that was a part of my growing up in music. No defense, I should have stayed home and taken lessons and woodshedded before I came out in public, but I didn't. I was enthusiastic and I had a couple of decent riffs and runs. I also relied on that enthusiasm to make up for my lack of skill.
I was invited into bands way before I was ready, blues rock mostly. I co-founded a band or two. Meanwhile I began taping gigs on a boom box and getting the crucial insight I needed to get willing to truly be a student. Tape does not lie and you can't deny its reality.
My bravado and bluster did not make up for a narrow knowledge base and bad technique and repetitive play. What cured all that was shutting up and listening, and trying until I got the drift and could apply it.
This may sound funny but my ego had to be very badly deflated before I was ready to improve. I asked a guy one evening what it would take for him to teach me how he "did that". He told me to give my shit away and fine a new hobby. I nearly punched him out but in the end I accepted the truth of his sentiment. I did not go out for months, instead I searched for cds of guys like Butler, Harmon, Clarke, Reed, the Walters, and I just listened. For months. Sometimes I actually wept in frustration. But I listened and I began to get a new view of what a harmonica could do in hands that cared.
I think Carey Bell and James Cotton made a huge difference for me.
Finding 3rd position actually forced me back to 1st and 2nd since there was so much I had never tried there. Being a student as much as I could forced me to listen more deeply and try harder, to record myself and learn from how it sounded on playback.
I can say today, I am not the top of the heap, but what I know I am is real. I do pretty well as attested by peers and strangers alike. the tip jar proves it too.
I challenge any one of you to say truthfully, you have never totally sucked at this. Because until you face some facts early on and make the right moves to be correct, you can not help but hurt eardrums.
I saw this thread and was not going to reply at all but you know what? Those Gus guys, they either get run off and quit, or like me they go home and take stock and learn. The worst thing we can do is lie to someone about their sound and chops but we also want to wait and be asked for an opinion. Running a jam responsibly means in part, we usher the novices through a few songs and see if we can guide them, or we find a way to keep them from doing damage to a jam. I've been guilty of not using a bit of compassion mixed with the truth. That's brutal.
Some of you guys are hell on wheels with a jam track but I ask you- have you been out front and had your ass kicked by hostile band members on stage? Have you done your level best and been rejected? Been treated like a bum or beggar by a prick who owned a club? These things happen in the real world. If you can answer yes to any or all, and you have stubbornly carried on and improved and gone forward, we're in the same club. Any fool can toot along with a youtube video. The harp MEN go out, make mistakes. learn, and carry on. They don't puff up on others' shortcomings.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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PropMan
16 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:35 AM
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Always give more than you promise. When I play in situations where the players are at a level way above mine I try not to get in the way, take simple well executed solos with as few as notes as possible and keep my mouth shut. And I never ask anyone's opinion of my playing in these situations.
I also tend to stand in the back with my head down.
I make plenty of mistakes and try to learn from therm but by being humble and quiet and staying out of the way I've been able to jam with some pretty great players without being called out.
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Ted Burke
91 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:38 AM
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I was that guy in the seventies, when my chops were just beginning to come together and I had actually learned a dozen or so tunes besides "Train Time". I was a not-bad harp player who thought he was great, and at times I would wedge my way to the microphone and take a solo after talking up a good game; in literature, hubris is something that is paid back in ironic disasters for the one with unjustified pride and arrogance, and I was fortunately enough that I was merely shown up by better harmonica players in San Diego at the time. The coup-de-grace was Charlie Musselwhite, who I was interviewing for a local magazine. He saw the harp I left conspicuously poking out of my jacket pocket and he asked me to play a little something. I did, and gave it all I had at the time, and he said something to the effect that he liked my tone, and noted that I was fast but I was sloppy. In retrospect I know he meant no harm, but that was the start of me taking a lower profile with my harmonica. If people ask me if I am any good, I just say "well yeah" and leave it at that.
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Frank
4922 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:40 AM
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You ain't a REAL MAN till a speaker tower falls over and smashes you in the head and knocks you out cold on stage and a drunk staggers up pours a glass of piss warm whiskey in your face to wake you up, once revived - you look cross-eyed at the audience and start wailin on that 4 draw with everything you got, that my friends is when your considered an authentic harp MAN :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 26, 2014 6:42 AM
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jbone
1706 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:42 AM
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@Propman and Ted
You guys get it. Thank you. We let the music speak and accept the answer. A more successful member of the club can make a huge difference to the positive.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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colman
315 posts
Jul 26, 2014
7:00 AM
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I think hearing a harp player on stage without an amp and harp mic,just playing through the PA mic.will show who has the language under command.....i became aware of this 44 yrs. ago seeing James Cotton blowing like a honking truck,just PA,NO AMP ETC.
Last Edited by colman on Jul 26, 2014 7:04 AM
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Ted Burke
92 posts
Jul 26, 2014
7:04 AM
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I worked in the carnival during the seventies, one of those guys in an orange shirt in a line up game covered in checkered and striped tarp and festooned with dusty stuffed animals who badgered you to play and win your girl friend "the big one". What a tale that is. After work one night in Costa Mesa, a bunch of us gathered at the "carnie entrance" to drink beer, bullshit and do whatever drugs were on hand. I usually played my harmonica, someone with a guitar would usually show up and a jam would ensue, which the other carnies, lumpen proletariat all, enjoyed quite a bit. But one night I was playing, as usual, after work, kicking a slew of Butterfield and JOhn Sebastian riffs, when I saw this large, beefy ride jock (the guys who operated the carnival rides) saying something to me. I leaned closer and asked him to repeat, and he repeated, but I still didn't understand him because I went back to riffing on the harp. I leaned closer still, turning my good ear toward him. He staggered a little , gave me a stare that would make fish float to the top of the lake, and croaked "how'd you like that thing crammed up your ass?" I set my beer down and pocked the harmonica and then left through the carnie gate back toward the motel room.
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Goldbrick
560 posts
Jul 26, 2014
7:24 AM
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Unless you are playing with a bunch of 15 year old shredders- most musicians I have met are pretty tolerant.
The blowhards just dont get invited back.
I can tolerate lack of skill more than someone who just doesnt know their place and steps all over everybody and keeps turning up the volume. They deserve a beating.
Look at a lot of the videos-even many of the technically skilled players cant keep that harp out of their face during the intro, blow every note they know everytime and cant find the beat with a stethoscope.
That is something every musician should know regardless of skill level.
The only comment I ever really make is try getting a tuner and a metronome.
To paraprhrase Dick Cheney ( scary I know) . As a musician there are things you know, things you dont know and things you dont know you dont know-its that last piece that will make or break you
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dougharps
691 posts
Jul 26, 2014
7:27 AM
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@ Frank
Regarding your OP:
“You are what you do, not what you say you'll do.”
- Carl Jung
"When I am able to resist the temptation to judge others, I can see them as teachers of forgiveness in my life, reminding me that I can only have peace of mind when I forgive rather than judge."
- Gerald Jampolsky
Regarding the post LSD philosophical essay:
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things"
- Lao Tzu
"The map is not the territory"
- Alfred Korzybski
A general comment on divisive topics on the forum:
"Everyone's saying that music is love"
- David Crosby
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 26, 2014 7:31 AM
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LittleBubba
300 posts
Jul 26, 2014
11:45 AM
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With tongue slightly in cheek, I add that even if you can really play, but you show up to a gig without backup harps, cables, tubes (valves), batteries,mic etc... well, you aren't a pro.
disclaimer: I am not a great harper, but I always have my spare gear with me.
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Frank
4930 posts
Jul 26, 2014
12:09 PM
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waltertore
2713 posts
Jul 26, 2014
2:05 PM
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It use to be your playing ability was second to if you were doing the same drugs as the in crowd. Before the internet, home studios, youtube, and such, one had to be almost totally dependent on the music industry to make it past a couple weeknight gigs a month in a small local bar around the corner from where you lived. It was so locked up I saw lots of guys get famous that were not very good but knew how to navigate the waters with the top bands, record industry executives, and media people. It is no different than any other business. If you are a good salesman your product will easily outsell a good one with less persuasive promotion. I listen to people. If they move me they move me and if they don't they don't. One of the greatest performances I ever saw was a wino on a street corner. He reached into his back pulled out his bottle, put it to his lips, and found it was empty. He smashed the bottle in the gutter and proceeded to howl stuff that would have rivaled howling wolf on his best day. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
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kudzurunner
4810 posts
Jul 26, 2014
3:01 PM
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Diggs: I like your list of sayings. There's another one: "It's not bragging if you can back it up." --Muhammad Ali
Dizzy Dean is actually credited with the original quote: "It ain't bragging if you can do it."
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 26, 2014 3:02 PM
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Goldbrick
564 posts
Jul 26, 2014
4:03 PM
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Or as a Walter Brennan western character used to say " No brag, fact"
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dougharps
692 posts
Jul 27, 2014
11:15 AM
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Since Diggs didn't post a list of sayings, I am guessing kudzurunner was referring to my list of quotes above...
Or did I miss a list of sayings from Diggs?
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Doug S.
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atty1chgo
1024 posts
Jul 27, 2014
4:38 PM
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Seems that many of Frank's most recent posts have had the same overall theme: some kind of macho-istic calling out exercises, and simplistic dick measuring contests, as well as a degree of condescension:
"Mandatory Sacrifices (to become) The Best" - in other words, players who don't practice enough are making "EXCUSES"
COMPENSATION of THE > [performing artist] - which morphed into a discussion of who makes more money playing music.
"Claiming the Title of "Most Educated Musician"!" - list your degrees (if you have them);
"Are YOU a '''''Bloooooze Musician''''' ? / ? / ? And if so...What makes you think that you are?
And if not...What's holding you back?"
And this one:
"Musicians WHO talk a good game, but Can't Deliver". with an opening post:
" Is there a name for the musician who talks themselves up, only to be unable to back it up when they need to?"
Somehow I find these the general direction, albeit this man's opinion, of the perceived direction of this sort of discussion to be childish and not very productive.
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Frank
4941 posts
Jul 27, 2014
5:23 PM
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If you have a grievance e-mail me personally, this ain't the place - thanks :)
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kudzurunner
4814 posts
Jul 27, 2014
7:16 PM
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Doug, I meant you, not Diggs. Blame it on lack of sleep. My bad!
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nacoran
7886 posts
Jul 27, 2014
7:46 PM
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Goldbrick, I think that was Rumsfeld, not Cheney.
As mocked as it was, I, as someone who likes to enjoy a clever turn of phrase, actually kind of liked that construct; wasn't a fan otherwise, but it did actually say something, though at first blush it seemed like just doublespeak.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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dougharps
693 posts
Jul 27, 2014
8:09 PM
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@kudzurunner
No big deal: both handles start with the letter "d" and end with the letter "s" ;-}
@atty1chgo
I think that Frank may be a secret acolyte of Eris. He indulges in dropping Dischordian apples among us from time to time, then steps back to watch what happens.
He certainly stimulates discussion!
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Doug S.
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Frank
4943 posts
Jul 28, 2014
5:33 AM
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This sums it up :)
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