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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Miles Davis on "Pattern Playing"
Miles Davis on "Pattern Playing"
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The Iceman
1814 posts
Jul 11, 2014
6:34 AM
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Miles would not put up with sidemen who played "patterns" and "licks".
If he heard one practicing licks in the hotel room and heard them on the bandstand, he would fire them.
He told them "I'm paying you to "practice" on the gig".
A few suggestions, a la Miles -
"Play what you know and play next to what you know".
"Don't finish your phrases"
"Don't start your phrases at the beginning".
"If you don't have something to say, don't play".
"Play your instrument like you don't know how to play it".
Miles was totally into playing "in the moment" - always listening to what was going on around you and responding to it.
"To begin a solo, think of a note and don't play it".
A lot of what he told his musicians was semi confusing and Zen like, always in short sentences. It was up to the musicians to eventually decipher the meaning.
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The Iceman
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Diggsblues
1423 posts
Jul 11, 2014
8:41 AM
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This quote is attributed to Miles,
"you know why I don't play ballads? I like them
too much".
In school we studied transcribed solos of Miles.
I suggest this as great material for harmonica
players. We even studied two versions of "My Funny Valentine" and compared them.
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Last Edited by Diggsblues on Jul 11, 2014 9:18 AM
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Goldbrick
524 posts
Jul 11, 2014
9:10 AM
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"A lot of what he told his musicians was semi confusing and Zen like, always in short sentences. It was up to the musicians to eventually decipher the meaning."
A brilliant musician - but a very troubled man with poor people skills(heroin addiction, cocaine addiction, pimping , spousal abuse and racial issues )
Like many brilliant artists- they communicate on their own plane-its up to you to figure it out. I dont believe it was a zen type lesson
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The Iceman
1815 posts
Jul 11, 2014
9:37 AM
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Actually, it was Zen like teaching.
Interviews with most of the people that played with him had a common theme when asked about how Miles was to work with ...Zen was the most used descriptive term in regards to his suggestions to them on how to play.
This is not to say that Miles studied or practiced Zen like a religion, but comments on how he would discuss what he wanted from his musicians.
He never told them exactly what or how to play, but was very cryptic in his comments. All that worked with him agreed that when they figured it his short statements, it was the most rewarding experience in their musical lives.
Agreed he had his demons, but for every bad example of his behavior, there was an example of his generosity/humor/hospitality, etc. He just never put up with bullshit and would test people to see how far they would cater to him because of who he was. The ones that stood up to him and held their ground earned his respect.
It was said many times that if you wanted to really understand the sole of this man, just listen to his playing.
A 5 year old English girl summed it up when listening to a cut off of Tutu...she said the trumpet sounded like a little boy looking for his mum.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 11, 2014 9:42 AM
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Ted Burke
64 posts
Jul 11, 2014
10:26 AM
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Miles Davis, I think, put up with players who depended on patterns for their soloing, as in his choice of having Coltrane, John McLaughlin or Chick Corea in his bands. He even employed Sonny Stitt. In any case, what attracted him to particular musicians was what they were doing with the system of licks and riffs they'd learned and mastered. Style is the mastery of one's technique to the extent that it the music, like language, becomes a personal, identifiable essence; the notes you select from the uniquely patterned knowledge of scales, modes and the like are akin to the poet's phrases, the painter's brush strokes. What he hated , and Mingus as well, were those proficient copy cats who rattled off their riffs regardless of what the tune needed or what the band was up to. When asked once by band member what he was supposed to do when it came his time to play, Miles said "Fuck shit up/"
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DukeBerryman
398 posts
Jul 11, 2014
10:52 AM
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Don't finish phrases is my favorite - I do that all the time, and I got it from Junior Wells.
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walterharp
1449 posts
Jul 11, 2014
11:28 AM
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not finishing phrases is, in a sense, playing a pattern, it is just letting the audience fill in the rest of the pattern, singers do that all the time
it does not work if you don't have a phrase or some sort of pattern to start with though.
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uncle_tambour
5 posts
Jul 11, 2014
12:26 PM
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"To begin a solo, think of a note and don't play it".
Man, I wish I'd heard this two years ago. The greatest way to get stuck playing the same licks over and over is to start in the same place over and over.
Be honest, I don't understand "don't finish your phrases." Anyone care to enlighten me?
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The Iceman
1816 posts
Jul 11, 2014
12:47 PM
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I suppose everyone may have a different definition of "pattern".
For instance, I don't feel that "a phrase" and "some sort of pattern" are the same thing.
My perception of a pattern is a series of notes that, once you start playing, you can predict what follows directly to its resolution. This becomes easy to do when the musician repeats a pattern often enough.
I know for sure that Miles would not put up with this from his musicians (according to my definition of pattern).
"Don't finish your phrases" simply means to stop playing before you reach your own logical end point. This could mean stopping short of that last note, last two notes, last three notes, etc.
All this advice was offered to help the musicians come awake fully during the performance and not fall into that "sleep walk" type of playing that happens so often.
The focus was always on reacting to what was happening in the moment on the bandstand.
If you listen to recordings now available of multiple nights of a Miles gig at the same club, you will hear the same set list, but the tunes will always head off in different directions.
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The Iceman
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Frank
4799 posts
Jul 11, 2014
12:59 PM
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__ _____ be glad to __________ you, I thought that you would________ _____ - but, alas - I was wrong and __________ has ____ my heart. I hope this has ________ you and I pray you were_________and ________ :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 11, 2014 1:45 PM
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jackleg
19 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:05 PM
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your last note better not be the 2 draw!!!
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walterharp
1452 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:05 PM
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I think many agree that miles played patterns....he did it more originally and less predictably than others and more importantly with more feeling, go down a page on this link
selected patterns of Miles Davis
Last Edited by walterharp on Jul 11, 2014 1:06 PM
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The Iceman
1817 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:51 PM
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Clicking on the link above, I would have described those short ideas as phrases rather than patterns.
As I mentioned, it may be a difference in personal definitions.
Aside from this small divergence in perception, many ideas on the link above lend themselves to harmonica quite nicely, although they don't seem to fit in the traditional blues harmonica "box".
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The Iceman
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Frank
4800 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:06 PM
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I highly doubt that Miles would of been any good on the harmonica, even though he could play the trumpet - not looking for controversy, but it's probably a true statement :)
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boris_plotnikov
982 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:26 PM
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We messed with teremins. I never think it's a good idea to learn licks. It can be useful, but most of time it's useless and even make you play worse, not your ideas but stolen ideas and I think that's about Miles told. Talking about patterns I mean rudiments - set of way moving through instrument layout.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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The Iceman
1818 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:30 PM
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Miles grew up in St. Louis which had a thriving music scene that incorporated the blues.
In the last third of his life, he was attempting to include more of that blues aspect (he described it somewhat as the cheap drum set, 25 cent harmonica, etc. sound).
Miles always incorporated the blues into his playing, as is evident when you hear his choice of notes and where he would "bend" the notes - very similar to the harmonica.
I don't think he was interested in playing harmonica, as it might not have been cool enough for him.
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The Iceman
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DukeBerryman
399 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:39 PM
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When I play blues harp, I play as an accompanist, so the band (and the audience) can always finish my phrases. Plus it adds tension. One of the luxuries of being an accompanist.
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Frank
4801 posts
Jul 11, 2014
2:45 PM
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I have a feeling he tried to learn making music with a harmonica - and realized he couldn't play it that good... after all it is the musician that makes the instrument cool, not the other way around. He could of very well been intimated by the harmonica players on the scene and did'n t want to be shown up by them, seriously - he was a fragile man that way and most likely gave up trying to learn the harp because of it being to difficult for him to play his music on- so he stuck with what was easier for him , that being the trumpet of course :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 11, 2014 2:50 PM
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Milsson
137 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:27 PM
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Ted Burke
65 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:37 PM
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I am of the mind that Davis could play the trumpet anyway he wanted to; the style he did develop, with lots of spaces, terse phrases, and long , nearly vibrato-less sustained notes held over several chords , and demonstrations of dazzling speed at those points where you'd least expect them to be, was in response to the high-octane viruosity of the boppers like Parker and Gillespie who came before him. Much of it had to do, I believe, with the fact that Davis wasn't the firebrand soloist that Gillespie was. Rather than attempt to mimic an older, precedent setting musician who came before him, he worked brilliantly with the gifts he did have. He changed the way the trumpet was played. He acknowledged what had come before and set about to change history.
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jnorem
367 posts
Jul 11, 2014
5:11 PM
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I don't see anything wrong with melodic patterns, repeated phrases in improvising. Repetition is a good way to set up tension and release.
Miles Davis had a big mouth, and he said a lot of stuff that went from bizarre to flat-out wrong. A lot of times he'd say something just for the effect, to be controversial. And where patterns are concerned, the man is playing repeating patterns all over "Bitches Brew" and "Jack Johnson".
Don't get me wrong, I love Miles, especially his second quintet, which was the hippest jazz group that ever existed; "E.S.P" is a modern jazz masterpiece.
I just wouldn't put much stock in what the man had to say. Read his autobiography and you'll see what I mean.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 11, 2014 5:12 PM
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jpmcbride
65 posts
Jul 11, 2014
7:55 PM
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@uncle_tambour
If you listen to a Jr Wells harp playing, a lot of times he'll play a solo and a phrase will be leading toward the turnaround and then he'll stop and not play the turnaround. The way he led up to it led you to expect it, and it catches your attention when he doesn't play it. Its more noticible and memorable that he didn't play it, than it would have been if he did.
I had a harp player that was also a trumpet player tell me the same thing about starting on something other than the typical notes in order to branch out and find new things to play instead of the same old tired riffs. He said try starting on the 3 draw instead of always starting riffs on 2 draw. It really helps and I need to remember it more.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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1847
1950 posts
Jul 11, 2014
10:26 PM
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Frank
4808 posts
Jul 12, 2014
12:22 PM
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I play every other note that I think about...Albert King
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The Iceman
1820 posts
Jul 12, 2014
6:31 PM
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jnorem:
If you want to get deeper into Miles (including what is true and not so true in the autobiography), I can recommend about 7 books for you to read...
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The Iceman
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jnorem
379 posts
Jul 12, 2014
6:40 PM
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Hey Iceman, I'm plenty deep into Miles already, I know all the stories and all the mythology.
Miles Davis changed my life forever, in the same way that Paul Butterfield and Little Walter did. I'm sure that you and I could talk about Miles all day and night, but not on a blues harp forum.
But I can tell you this: During my days playing chromatic harmonica in an instrumental "fusion" band, I copped Miles Davis licks all day long, and I modeled my playing on his stark and vibrato less tone and attack.
Miles has loomed large in my life since my late teens, when I was on the street and I first heard "Jack Johnson" playing on the street-level speaker of the hippie shop upstairs.
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Call me J
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Ted Burke
68 posts
Jul 12, 2014
7:45 PM
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I agree with jnorem's estimation of Davis, an untouchable musical genius who was prone to say provocative shit because he liked being the center of a controversy.We need to accept the established fact that MD was a profound asshole to an awful lot of people over a long period of time, and that he was like wise generous and loyal to a good many others. He is a mixed bag personally, "problematic" being the word.
That is the price of being the one man who personified the philosophy of "cool" better than any major figure in 20th century America;beyond the music he made, he was well aware of the cultural change he spearheaded and became, I think, something of caricature of the hipster artist trying to stay unpredictable, several steps ahead of the pack, several beats counter to the mainstream.
His pronouncements became pricklier, more caustic,more unkind, and his music became, toward the end, increasingly gutless and wavering as convincing modes to play against. Only the sound of his trumpet remained with him to near the last days,and even that left him. In the wake of this life, there is a body of genius that cannot be matched, will not be replicated. Geniuses are often times eccentric jerks, and MD was, often enough, one of those.
Last Edited by Ted Burke on Jul 12, 2014 8:25 PM
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jnorem
381 posts
Jul 12, 2014
7:49 PM
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That's nice stuff, Ted, really good. Thanks.
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Call me J
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HarpNinja
3901 posts
Jul 13, 2014
5:48 AM
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People should play what makes them happy and stop worrying about if it is considered right by peers. Create your own path. It is about your growth and your journey. Not everyone can parallel Miles's path (which is very Zen to say).
Harmonica gets really fun when you stop competing with others.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Jul 13, 2014 5:56 AM
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The Iceman
1822 posts
Jul 13, 2014
8:40 AM
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I suppose opinions are sometimes stated as "I find that" while at other times they are offered as definitive sentences, depending on the person expounding.
While Ted Burke does put forth effective summations, his statement as such "His pronouncements became pricklier, more caustic,more unkind, and his music became, toward the end, increasingly gutless and wavering as convincing modes to play against. Only the sound of his trumpet remained with him to near the last days,and even that left him." is one with which I personally disagree.
As far as my experience with his music, analysis of, and gathering of information by my own research, I've personally concluded that, towards the end, he became less caustic and much more open to those around him and to the public (granting an amazing amount of interviews, "goofing" around on the stage a bit, fiercely proud and protective of his young musicians in the face of negative revues, etc). Some of this may be due to eliminating most of his own bad habits/drug dependencies, etc, as well as no longer being in extreme pain.
As to gutless music - once again, this is a matter of opinion. I've found his last period to be a revelation in regards to funky ensemble playing as well as a crossover to wider mainstream acceptance, which was one of Miles aspirations for quite a while.
Quite simply, Miles' last ensembles were, to my ears, the baddest bands in the land and the sound of his trumpet was pretty strong (for the most part) up until the end.
Once again, views differ as do our own life experiences. However, will be glad to suggest recorded examples to listen to supporting my opinions.
A great starting point would be "Live Around the World", in which a lot of live recordings were compiled from his final years (including one from his very last public performance = Hannibal - in which his trumpet playing is very strong indeed).
Check out "Wrinkle" (based on a solo from John Scofield which was transcribed by Gil Evans as the basis for this song) with Kei Akagi's amazing opening synth solo.
What I enjoy is that this music, to me, has aged well...it doesn't sound like a "period piece".
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 13, 2014 11:33 AM
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Goldbrick
530 posts
Jul 13, 2014
11:11 AM
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Part of the issue imo is 1 - Davis' erratic personality and 2 the fact that fusion sounds very dated .
Take those pieces out of the picture and you probably have him in a strong tie for third in jazz influence ( Armstrong and Parker 1 and 2 with Davis and Coltrane tied for third
I think towards the end of his Davis was kinda scattershot in his approach and maybe lost his edge a bit.
Personally i love his stuff from the early years thru Bitches Brew. Not so much after that
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The Iceman
1825 posts
Jul 13, 2014
12:38 PM
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(This response was to a Ted Burke posting regarding the ill fated Montreux recording Davis did w/Quincy Jones...the posting by Ted has since been removed)
Davis was totally against this project, as he hated looking back. He only did it for the extreme amount of money he asked.
An interview with his partner at the time, Jo Gelbard, reveals all the details.
An interview with Wallace Roney reveals the reality of this session...he was amazed at Miles ability to play most of the music in spite of the fact that Miles was totally not into it. He also found himself filling in less than was expected, hardly a lion's share.
The Quincy Jones recording was far from his last one.
Right after Montreux, Miles did an ALL STAR concert in France featuring many of his side men from over the years, covering his various creative periods.
Interviews with these musicians revealed a more vital Miles that really enjoyed the social gathering and played strongly.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 13, 2014 12:54 PM
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Ted Burke
70 posts
Jul 13, 2014
12:59 PM
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Well, we disagree on the quality of the work; I don't hear a consistently strong soloist here. Compared to the fiery, cool and sublimely selected sorties he did through out his decades, Live at Montreaux is weak tea at best. It is second rate Miles Davis, and one wonders why anyone wants to listen to performances far below MDs own standards. There is a strong cult of Miles, of course, an element of his fan base that cannot admit that much of what he did in his later career was snap, crackle , pop, chatter and bleat and empty stretches of mood music spiced up with a mere glimpse of that golden tone, albeit filtered wah wah pedals. It was not all good.
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The Iceman
1826 posts
Jul 13, 2014
1:23 PM
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As mentioned above, Miles was totally not into the Quincy project and only did it for the money.
Most (myself included) agree that the result of this recording was slightly embarrassing.
btw, Miles stopped using the wah wah pedal not long after 1981, when someone hid it during one of his studio recording sessions (when he went to the bathroom), forcing him to get back to his natural sound.
He was using the wah wah as a crutch to hide the fact that his lip was still weak from his retirement.
btw, it was never all about Miles' trumpet tone. It was about his influence and musical direction creating ensemble sounds from many diverse players. His presence alone was a factor in how the music progressed.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 13, 2014 2:48 PM
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wolfkristiansen
294 posts
Jul 13, 2014
2:50 PM
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She Rote (1951)-- Here's some Miles where he might not be playing "patterns", but he's definitely playing exact, preplanned notes with his musical partner, Charlie Parker. Listen to the head, start and end. I love it, as I love so many songs the two did together. Au Privave, KC Blues, A Night in Tunisia, lots more.
Harp content? Not sure, except many of us in this group play our harps like horns, not rhythm instruments, am I right? Maybe one of the more accomplished players will learn the head to this song. I'll give it a try, call me in five years.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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kudzurunner
4780 posts
Jul 13, 2014
5:18 PM
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Thanks for this thread, Larry. I've only read your first post, but I'm already saying "Amen." Bluesmen (and -women) should think like jazz players. It leavens the mix.
Alan and I did that last night. We pushed the boundaries. I got up from my drumset during one song, walked down off the stage, and went out onto the dance floor. Amazing response. I could have done this months ago but it hadn't occurred to me that I had that power. I tried something new. I played--did--"next" to what I knew, rather than inside what I knew.
Always be willing to try something new.
That's my bon mot for the day.
If you stick with what has always worked, it may continue to work. But if you risk something new, you may discover that it was sitting there waiting for you, all these months and years.
Beginner's mind. Kids have it. We should remember that it's always right there, available to us.
@Goldbrick: You're right about Miles's "issues" (that does seem to be the term people use these days), but ultimately the music speaks for itself. Some artists are nice, or good, or amazing, or truly enlightened people. Some are idiots and assholes. I prefer musicians who are nice people, but I'm aware that the word "nice" also carries fangs that tend to kill off rough, authentic, daring edges that some brilliant musicians carry, and so I tend to cut those people some slack.
--Mr. Satan's boy
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 13, 2014 5:24 PM
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wolfkristiansen
297 posts
Jul 13, 2014
7:16 PM
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Back in the day, if the mood struck me, I'd jump off stage with mic and harmonica in hand and stride to a table graced with a beautiful woman I'd espied from stage. I played for her as if she were the only person in the room. (Before I was married, please don't tell my wife).
Albert Collins taught me this, long before I knew I'd be playing with him.
Back in the day, I saw him in a small club in Vancouver, Canada. So small you could hear what everybody said, onstage or off. I had come with a "date", to hear one of my guitar heroes.
Halfway through his show, Albert saw a beautiful black woman in the room. He left the stage, walked over to her table with his guitar in hand. He sat down and said, with a tilt of his head, "I see something I like!" He played a flurry of bluesy notes while she blushed. I think she was blushing. Red on black.
So, this isn't quite on topic, but it's about jumping off the stage. I still do it.
Cheers
Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Jul 13, 2014 7:28 PM
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Komuso
351 posts
Jul 13, 2014
8:46 PM
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The "walk out and do stuff with crowd" is a great trick (I saw The um, real Iceman AC;-) do it live as well) but can be a bit cliched if you do it at regular gigs with return punters I think.
If you're going to do it I think you should mix it up a bit each time, not just do the "oh here he goes and plays slide with the beer bottle from the table trick...again" type of thing.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Jul 13, 2014 8:46 PM
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Diggsblues
1427 posts
Jul 15, 2014
2:23 AM
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Ok let's hear some Miles tunes done on harmonica.
I know some of you guys seem to know Miles so you must have some recordings.
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Slimharp
357 posts
Jul 15, 2014
10:42 AM
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Great comments on this subject. I play patterns, of course I do. There is a time for that, at least for me. Then there are times when the band is cookin and I hear stuff in my head that I havent played before and I play it, mostly pulling off of what the band is doing. Sort of like the band is telegraphing notes in code to be decoded by me and my instrument. Very "in the now" moment stuff. If I try to do it, it dont work. For me the main thing is to do it when I hear it and not hold back. Maybe that is some of what Miles was getting at.
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Frank
4825 posts
Jul 15, 2014
12:23 PM
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