jnorem
359 posts
Jul 10, 2014
6:23 PM
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Lately I’ve been holding my JT30 while I practice and play around the house. That is, after all, the rig I use to sound the way I like to. I never play acoustically, now that I think about it, unless I’m asked to do so by someone who’s paying me. Otherwise my sound is what comes out of my amp. I love that, I love amplified harmonica.
Noticing things, though. The design of my microphone, its shape, is pretty much exactly like the JT30 of the fifties, but back then it was mounted on a little stand and intended to be used as a dispatcher’s microphone; it was never intended to be used the way harmonica players use it. In other words it was never designed to be a harmonica microphone.
Many electronics companies include in their product line a blues harp microphone shaped the same way, that rounded-off conical shape, for harmonica microphone builders that shape is iconic. But why? Surely there’s a more ergonomic design that would be easier to hold and get a good sealed cup with, slightly smaller and definitely lighter. I’m talking about a microphone (hi-z with a volume control) designed specifically and only for cupping it to a harmonica, the blues harp way. The way it ends up being shaped will be the more ergonomic way. It just makes sense to me.
The Audix isn’t bad, but it’s too clean. The Shaker Retro-Rocker looks easier to hold, but it sounds way too trebly.
Sustainability and fragility of crystals is also something to take into consideration, I’d suppose. An alternative material would need to be used, synthetic probably, that could effectively replace crystal. Or possibly a circuit could be designed that could achieve the crystal effect naturally.
An ergonomically sound designed, top-notch electronics and strong-as-nails constructed modern blues harp mic with the ability to produce a tone like a mint-condition JT30. Shure could easily build a microphone like that, but they’re not going to spend that kind of time and money on what for them is a small niche market.
It sure would be a lot of fun to do it, though, to design the ultimate modern blues harp microphone and dominate the entire blues harmonica microphone industry!
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 10, 2014 6:35 PM
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Jehosaphat
768 posts
Jul 10, 2014
7:13 PM
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They aren't crystal,but i have an astatic T3 bullet that is a lot smaller than either a Shure 520,or a JT 30.
Also an Astaic biscuit mike which is also easy as to cup.
(Both with C/M elements)
I think you'd go broke though developing a harp specific mike with a crystal.
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SuperBee
2112 posts
Jul 10, 2014
7:42 PM
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Ha ha, yes Shure instead built a 'harmonica mic' which is bigger and harder to hold.
Maybe Greg Heumann has gone some way toward your suggestion with his custom wood mics
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1847
1948 posts
Jul 10, 2014
7:58 PM
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why re-invent the wheel?
you already have a crystal mic
that puts you ahead of 99 percent of the pack.
how much more of an advantage do you need?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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KingoBad
1501 posts
Jul 10, 2014
8:25 PM
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Greg HAS already addressed those problems. His custom wood mics are smaller, lighter, and play like you are riding a rocket.
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Danny
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jbone
1686 posts
Jul 10, 2014
8:33 PM
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Astatic 332 crystal mic. Much smaller and lighter. Not as big a sound maybe but still worthy. A lot easier to hold and cup. Not too spendy either.
The front end cost of growing new crystals for the really very small harp player market would preclude any money being made by the maker.
My current favorite harp mic is a Shure 585 on a stand. I can grab it to hold and cup when I want but it also sounds great in a stand. I can get plenty of different sounds and since it's high-z it plugs into a tube amp and sounds great. With a Lone Wolf harp delay it's one of the best in my book, at least for what I do.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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slackwater
67 posts
Jul 10, 2014
9:00 PM
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For me, the JT30 is easy enough to hold.
Something else. Just recently I got an element out of an old hand held, block type of mic. It's an AKG dynamic which I can't find out much about but from the design of the mic and the box it was in I'm guessing 1960's.It had a trany and an impedance switch- high impedance is about 40k I think. Anyway, this thing fitted pretty easy into a dead vocal ball-on-a-stick mic I had. It worked alright but sounded a bit sterile and there was this slight ringing. I put it aside and forgot about it for a while.
The other day I was thinking about how much different aspects of a microphone effect it's performance and I took this element and managed to fit it real well into a JT30 body and, shit!!! The difference was massive. Crunchy as and sounding like it had been through a top end compressor. Very usable for some situations.
I've heard guitar players whinging about how heavy Les Pauls are. They could make 'em lighter but, they wouldn't sound like a Les Paul then.
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jnorem
360 posts
Jul 10, 2014
9:14 PM
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@1847: "why re-invent the wheel?
you already have a crystal mic
that puts you ahead of 99 percent of the pack.
how much more of an advantage do you need?"
Well, that's what the OP is about.
@SuperBee: Yes, I'm a big fan of Greg Heumann's work.
Another idea: The grill shouldn't protrude like a JT30, it should be flat, and there could be some sort of rubber gasket around the perimeter of the grill that would eliminate that loud click when you pick up another harmonica.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 10, 2014 9:32 PM
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Kingley
3631 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:18 PM
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A JT30 doesn't need to be any smaller. It's already smaller than a harmonica and is easily cupped if you have good technique. That "loud click" happens because you aren't holding the mic properly. That sound is the harp against the grill of the mic. You shouldn't be holding your harmonica against the grill of the mic most of the time, unless it's done for a specific effect. You should have a gap of at least a finger width or so. This creates an acoustic chamber to allow you to shape the tone and is a hugely important step in getting good tone from a cupped mic. It means that when you swap harps, you don't get that "loud click". I'd suggest looking at the cover of Rod Piazza's Harpburn album, that should enlighten you on what you're doing wrong.
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jnorem
361 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:41 PM
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Kingsley, my nibs. Or am I his nibs? Anyway, here's how I hold my JT30:
I don't think the JT30 needs to be any smaller, either. I'm not talking about the JT30, I'm talking my imaginary modern harp mic. If rubbishing that is your idea of a good time then I'm glad I could contribute something to your day.
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Call me J
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jnorem
362 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:55 PM
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I took some aluminum foil and made a sort of mock-up of what I imagine my mic would look like'
Here's a top view. The bottom part is the phone plug sticking out.
Here it is from the side. The green push pin represents the volume control.
And now here's me playing it. At this size, I can really hold this thing without having to grip it so tightly.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 10, 2014 10:56 PM
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BluesJacketman
164 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:18 AM
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You know what is around that shape?
The Shure Commando Microphone. They are very easy to cup. Have Shure Hi Z Controlled MAgnetic Element in them. Some of those elements are REALLY HOT. My friend had one that had an output of 1300 ohms. Most of the elements in those mics aren't as loud though, but if you've got a big amp that don't matter. Might even help with feedback issues. Plus you can pick one up for like 80-120 dollars.
http://cdn.shure.com/user_guide/upload/392/us_pro_415_ug.pdf
The 425 model is perfect for harp.
Try one out J.
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A440
182 posts
Jul 11, 2014
1:21 AM
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@jnorem - your mock up looks the same size and shape as Greg's Ultimate with a Bulletizer.
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BigBlindRay
231 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:28 AM
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There is no such thing as the perfect Harp mic.
Tone is subjective and shape is too. I love the large shell 520s - I don't think they're heavy or big, never had a problem with them. I think JT30 shells are a bad design because I cant get as good a seal with then by Comparison.
I think Stick mics are even worse, smaller diameter means less focus of element to the upper register and more fiddling round with shifting the mic up and down the range of the instrument, but I digress.
There wont ever be a mass produced Mic that is specifically geared to Harp players because there isn't even any money to be made into investing $$ into R&D.
I liken mics to Guitar pickups. There are a bunch of different shapes and sizes that produce a wide variety of sounds so im sure there is going to be something that works for you.
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didjcripey
768 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:28 AM
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Something like this J?
http://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel1847.sf/en_US/?ViewObjectID=11445&Currency=EUR
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Lucky Lester
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chromaticblues
1586 posts
Jul 11, 2014
4:26 AM
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I think the shure 444 is a great shape. Easy to hold and light.
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Kingley
3634 posts
Jul 11, 2014
5:03 AM
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"If rubbishing that is your idea of a good time then I'm glad I could contribute something to your day. "
Jnorem -I'm at a loss to understand why you feel the need to try and attack me in your post. Do you suffer from paranoia? You seem to get very hot under the collar, when all I did was offer some reasonable suggestions to the some of the problems you had posed. It was simply an attempt to aid a fellow harmonica player who may be having some problems. In future I won't bother trying to give any kind of helpful advice on any thread you post on, as it would seem that all it does is create some kind of extreme vexation within you. I shall simply refrain from posting anything at all on any thread you are involved in.
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colman
310 posts
Jul 11, 2014
5:40 AM
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I think if more time was spent on playing the harp with nothing but it and you,and developing tone and honk,you could get it with any mic ,amp or no amp ...it`s in you not the mic or amp...
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jnorem
363 posts
Jul 11, 2014
11:55 AM
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@colman: "I think if more time was spent on playing the harp with nothing but it and you,and developing tone and honk,you could get it with any mic ,amp or no amp ...it`s in you not the mic or amp…"
Not true. What I sound like playing acoustically is not at all the way I sound when playing amplified. Why would we spend so much time, effort and money on our electronics if our sound could be achieved with any mic, amp or no amp? It just makes no sense.
It's immensely important to be able to make the instrument sound good with good breathing, embouchure and technique, but if that's all you want then play into a microphone on a stand running into a PA system, like horn players and chromatic harmonica players do.
When I started out as a kid I played for several years without a mic or amp, just a boy and his harmonica. I like playing loud better.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 11, 2014 12:13 PM
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jnorem
364 posts
Jul 11, 2014
12:09 PM
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@ BluesJacketman and chromaticblues: Those shapes are indeed more like what I have in mind, particularly the 425.
@A440: I don't like the way those kind of mics sound used with harp. Too clean for my taste.
@didjcripey: Wow. I hadn't seen that before, the Seydel harp mic. Is it good, does anyone use it?
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Call me J
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harpoon_man
59 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:17 PM
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Maybe a chopped Astatic 200S would be a good alternative. It keeps the bullet shape, but I believe it is slightly smaller than the JT30. Also, if you wanted to acoustically deaden the grille, you could paint it with plasti-dip or something similar.
I thought the aluminum foil prototype resembled a Heumann bulletized SM57, which is also a good setup that I have tried as one of our local guys has one.
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BluesJacketman
165 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:30 PM
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@harpoon Man: The 200s is actually bigger than a jt-30. Its around the same size as a green bullet but alot lighter.
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jnorem
365 posts
Jul 11, 2014
3:31 PM
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Ha, yeah that mock-up I made…never mind.
Plasti-dip, now there's an idea. Acoustically deadening the grille, exactly. I mean, why not?
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Call me J
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1847
1949 posts
Jul 11, 2014
4:36 PM
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is that the original volume pot
on your jt 30
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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jnorem
366 posts
Jul 11, 2014
5:08 PM
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@1847: Yes, it's the original. I got it in 1994, I think, so it's a no-big-deal JT30. :)
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Call me J
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MakaInOz
97 posts
Jul 11, 2014
8:45 PM
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Everyone’s perfect mic will be different (and might even be different for different sorts of music), but the ’first principles’ design considerations will be the same. The element is the key. Not only for the type (crystal, CM, CR, dynamic, condenser etc) and the output (hot, really HiZ, feedback friendly etc) but mostly for the SIZE. You can’t fit one of those big Shure elements in a small easy to hold mic.
As has been mentioned above, the Shure 420 Commando is a great (ideal?) shape and size, but has a small CM element - you can’t fit an element from a 520D in it. My 420 is in pristine condition and my favourite mic (only $61 on eBay – with the chain to wear it around your neck!).
But I like building mics and have hunted around for what I think best suits my physical requirements – not too big (I have an old Zephyr bullet that is about 25% bigger than a 520 and weighs twice as much – pretty good sound, but almost unusable due to size/weight), must be able to fit a volume control and is easier (for me) if it can fit a ¼” female jack as well. And it has to fit whatever element/gasket I want in it – and mine come from all sorts of strange sources. My favourite shape/size/weight that meets those criteria turned out to be a Mennen roll-on deodorant bottle. Unscrew the cap and drill lots of very small holes in it. Drill holes in the bottom for the jack and the VC and pop out the ball. Turns out a number of elements I have are exactly the same diameter as the ball, so (after giving everything a really good wash), construction is easy. Very light weight, great shape, easy VC operation and cheap as (cost without element is < $5). The output is determined by whatever element I put in and I have half a dozen different options (both HiZ and LoZ) built so far. I use one into my Orange Micro Crush for some very small venues, another into the RP350 pedal and on to the PA. Those two have very different elements so sound completely different.
Can't have too many mic options!
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jnorem
369 posts
Jul 11, 2014
9:26 PM
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@MakaInOz: Yes to the 1/4" female jack, and volume control.
So it's the element that dictates the size. How big around is one of those elements? About an inch square, I'm guessing, maybe a bit more. Still, look at the massive grille on the business end, and feel the weight of the heavy metal body.
I'm not sure about that deodorant bottle mic, but I like your ideas.
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Call me J
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Greg Heumann
2771 posts
Jul 11, 2014
10:30 PM
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You know what is around that shape? An Ultimate 57 or 545 with a Bulletizer. The commando is a cool looking mic but doesn't hold up tone wise.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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Jehosaphat
769 posts
Jul 12, 2014
12:07 AM
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Like i said an astatic T3 bullet is small,almost exactly half the width of an 1896 hohner..yet a C/M fits into it like a glove.
I put a switchcraft into it and use a (gregs) VC it is really to me a 'perfect' mike.
So if i was building a Harp mike for the market that's the mold i would use..why the modern clones (520DX etc) come out with these battleships i have no idea.
Yeah the shell does make a difference to a degree
putting the same Element into a Biscuit mike does cut the bass response a little for example but the ease of making a tight cup more than compensates for that (imo)
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MP
3245 posts
Jul 12, 2014
1:03 PM
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From Jehosaphat-
"They aren't crystal,but i have an astatic T3 bullet that is a lot smaller than either a Shure 520,or a JT 30.
Also an Astatic Biscuit mike which is also easy as to cup.
(Both with C/M elements)
I think you'd go broke though developing a harp specific mike with a crystal."
My fav are two Biscuits, one crystal and one CR. The T-3 is great mic as is the Ev 920.
If Loaded w/ Cms, CRs, or great crystals these are the the smallest easiest to hold vintage mics on the market. An Astatic 200,- though smaller than a GB or JT-30 in diameter-, feel really large to me now after not using JT-30s for a few years.
I think it's a mistake to go w/ new mics, no matter how cool they look.
caveat- unless it's a Heumman mod loaded w/ something sweet.
crystals break. they just do. they tend to be expensive and only a few out of a hundred nos crystals are worth using. they are definitely not gig worthy and less road worthy. I don't know the number of crystals I've replaced in JT-30s but it is at least 15.
Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
Last Edited by MP on Jul 12, 2014 1:07 PM
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1847
1952 posts
Jul 12, 2014
1:20 PM
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rod piazza plays every single gig with a crystal jt 30
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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jnorem
375 posts
Jul 12, 2014
2:28 PM
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Hi Mark. So it looks like the controlled magnetic element is the way to go, yes?
I like Jehosaphat's T3 suggestion. Nice looking little unit.
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Call me J
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jnorem
376 posts
Jul 12, 2014
2:35 PM
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By the way, while searching ebay for a T3 I noticed that there are a heck of a lot of Astatic D104 "Lollipop" mics for sale. Their shape doesn't look like they'd make good harp mics, but they do use crystal elements.
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Call me J
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BluesJacketman
166 posts
Jul 12, 2014
2:36 PM
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Hey J are you looking for a CM too?
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jnorem
377 posts
Jul 12, 2014
3:20 PM
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Hi BluesJacketman, well, it just seems that between the crystal and the controlled magnetic, the CM element is the more rugged of the two and it breaks up almost as well. So, in compiling a list of qualities I'd want in a harp mic, I imagine I'd include the CM element.
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Call me J
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BluesJacketman
167 posts
Jul 12, 2014
3:31 PM
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yeah CM will last through alot. I have a few, if your interested, I would sell you one cheaper than anyone else once you get a new shell.
There is a small CM in a Shure Commando 425 too. Remember that.
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jnorem
378 posts
Jul 12, 2014
3:49 PM
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That's good to know, BJ. I'll definitely keep that in mind, thanks.
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Call me J
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jnorem
380 posts
Jul 12, 2014
7:47 PM
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Okay. I've just bought an Astatic T3 for $60, that includes shipping. It's listed as working fine. It was used as a PA system microphone for a high school.
So, did I do well?
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Call me J
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Greg Heumann
2773 posts
Jul 12, 2014
7:50 PM
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If you got a T3 with a crystal element that is still strong for $60 - yes, you did very well.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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jnorem
382 posts
Jul 12, 2014
7:52 PM
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Thanks, Greg. Now all I have to do is square it with my wife.
Is it possible to put a volume control in the T3?
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 12, 2014 7:54 PM
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BluesJacketman
168 posts
Jul 12, 2014
9:35 PM
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I think 60 is a great price for that mic! Even if that element doesn't work thats still a great price for a shell.
Heres a link to a picture of one with a VC.
http://www.fatbottom-mics.com/images/DSC00776.JPG
http://www.fatbottom-mics.com/images/DSC00779.JPG
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Jehosaphat
770 posts
Jul 12, 2014
9:39 PM
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Jeez that's a steal..even if the crystals no good your c/m will fit nicely into it.You can buy a proper gasket on line or adapt something else and trim it down.
I think greg could probably fit a V/C into a thimble ;-)But personally i prefer his add on one.
Works better for me on stage in that i can keep most of my cup and still adjust the V/C but hey it's not really a big deal.
Where did you find the T3?
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MP
3246 posts
Jul 13, 2014
12:07 PM
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Total Steal for $60. Amen. Jehosaphat said it all.
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
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jnorem
384 posts
Jul 13, 2014
12:19 PM
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Thanks guys. Really, thank you for all the input. Harp mic musings will continue…
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Call me J
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jnorem
388 posts
Jul 15, 2014
4:00 PM
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I've come to find that the Astatic T3, which I expect to arrive this coming Friday, has a 3-pin connector, not the screw-on connector I was expecting it would have.
So I found a 3-pin-to-screw-on adaptor for $38, and a cable for about that same price. The adaptor and cable cost more than I paid for the mic! But with these I'll have a working microphone.
Am I right that this is the correct procedure to take?
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 15, 2014 4:07 PM
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BluesJacketman
169 posts
Jul 15, 2014
5:00 PM
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I had that same problem with the vintage Shure 545 and PE54 mics. They used 4 pin and 3 pin connectors. I would wait until I had the mic then decided what to do.
You could send it to a good mic builder to put a switchcraft screw on single pin connector on it. but it will cost around the same amount as a cable or adapter.
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jnorem
389 posts
Jul 15, 2014
6:32 PM
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Hi BJ, yes, I'm going to wait 'till I have the mic before I commit to any specific direction.
So I won't be able to use the mic right away, that's okay. I'm tempted to just send it straight to Greg, but that may be beyond my means.
I've seen photos of modified T3's, and liked what I saw. I like the idea of being able to plug a guitar chord right into the mic; it looks more streamlined and it makes it weigh less.
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Call me J
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Greg Heumann
2776 posts
Jul 15, 2014
8:46 PM
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This is what I do... (That's on an Astatic 10DA but it has the same stalk as the T3)
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jul 15, 2014 8:47 PM
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jnorem
393 posts
Jul 15, 2014
11:11 PM
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That looks really good, Greg. I know you do quality work.
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Call me J
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SuperBee
2117 posts
Jul 16, 2014
2:39 AM
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I seem to have developed some problem with my hands, which I'm not sure about, but may be related to holding harps and/or mics. Definitely worse in my left hand, which is the one which I primarily use for holding mic and harp...the larger shell is less painful to hold than a stick mic...
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