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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Other things affecting tone vs embouchure
Other things affecting tone vs embouchure
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MindTheGap
460 posts
Jun 29, 2014
9:11 AM
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One of the reasons I read MBH is to tune into the things that important in learning how to play.
Judging by the number of posts I've read I might think that the most important things are 1. Choice of embouchure, 2. Choice of preamp tube.
But in fact I find that changing embouchure really doesn't affect the basic tone all that much (actually it does change a bit what I hear when playing but much less when I record and play back). What seems to matter much, much more is:
- using the hands and all the things to do with sealing (acoustic and amped)
- opening the throat and shaping the mouth
- breath control
Am I wrong? Educate me.
For the avoidance of doubt, I thought the detailed discussion of embouchure just now, including all the descriptions and vids was great. If I'm right, it would be great to read about these other subjects in that level of fine detail.
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mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 29, 2014 9:12 AM
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The Iceman
1781 posts
Jun 29, 2014
10:11 AM
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You are right.
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The Iceman
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5F6H
1800 posts
Jun 29, 2014
10:45 AM
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To me, opening & shaping the throat & mouth are part of embouchure...you can do any of them, whatever you want to call them, badly.
If you're playing amplified, through a tube amp, you are best off having a preamp tube in there ;-). Ideally the amp should transmit what you are doing & the sound you make (with desirable envelope/harmonics/grind), but now you have added something else in the chain & the tubes have a direct bearing on what comes out of the speakers & how easy the amp is to dial in on stage.
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nacoran
7847 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:19 AM
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There are all sorts of things that change your tone.
How you cup the harp certainly is a huge part of tone and it doesn't get talked about much. There have been several threads in the past about different grips and how to get the best seal, but I haven't seen one in a while. I remember reading an article once about acoustic tone and grip as it pertains to wah. The author suggested holding the harp more like you were holding your hands to your mouth to yell, and then just opening or closing them a tiny bit rather than a full on wah. He said for most occasions a full on wah was too much. There was thread debating the 'two thumbs' grip vs. the 'pinch' grips, and getting a seal for the upper holes against your cheek.
There is a quiet gentleman's debate running over breath force with Adam in one corner and BBQ in the other.
I don't tend to weigh in on the amp debates because I don't have the budget to really educate myself on it.
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Nate
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MindTheGap
462 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:22 AM
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Iceman - very good, thanks.
Mark - yes I think that's a fair point, but I'm tapping into the specific way embouchure been discussed here: largely lips.
Re preamp tubes - LOL that's where I've been going wrong :) That's my point really, they are discussed a lot and so I do believe that having the optimal one must be important. As you know, I don't know much about amps, but I could imagine that getting the 'right' preamp gain might have a much bigger impact than searching for a 'different sounding' tube - which is often discussed too. That's what I'm on about, understanding what makes a big difference vs fine tuning.
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CarlA
545 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:23 AM
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Refer to Franks post under the "emboucher enlightenment" thread. Everything you need to know is there!
Last Edited by CarlA on Jun 29, 2014 11:23 AM
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jbone
1671 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:26 AM
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MTG, I agree with those points and their major roles in tone.
My true harp "voice" began to develop AFTER I learned to access my deep torso and to open my throat. This I had to do or blow up my voice, so I was a double winner.
As barbeque bob says, it's never about FORCE but about FOCUS of air. Shaping the air as it comes out of you, through the throat and past the tongue, and using discretion on hand effects, are all basic. Mics and amps are secondary. Another hard lesson for me was to get my tone with no gadgets between me and the listener. For me definitely a combination of how air is delivered across the reeds, and hand effects.
Playing outdoors at a busy market is a challenge. The balance must be between being heard within an effective radius and not blowing out reeds or losing pleasing tonal quality. What I arrived at was the right harp for me plus knowing that the guy across the street will walk over if he wants to hear better. I can't reach everybody!
Side note, we play this market every 2 or 3 Saturdays and it's usually got a crowd. Yesterday the crowd was less, lower flow of folks, we think because of the humidity and cloud cover. But we made a bit MORE in tips! We think because the folks who were there, had a better chance to see and hear us and swing by to drop a buck on us.
My amp setup is as follows, most usually:
Shure 585 ball mic to Lone Wolf harp delay to Silvertone 1482. The amp is near stock but I have swapped the p3 12ax7 for a 12aU7. This lets all the signal in and then just takes just a bit off the top of the gain where feedback lurks. The Lone Wolf helps tame squeals as well. But RARELy do we crank up much at all. Raw. real, right now is our motto, but no wall of noise here.
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MindTheGap
463 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:35 AM
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CarlA - Hmmm I confess I'm finding Frank's new found style on the one hand quite compelling but also difficult to tune into :) I did enjoy your video. And I do think I could detect some faint variation in tone between techniques there. So much to explore - different biros, different shape of hole in the coffee creamers.
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MindTheGap
464 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:49 AM
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jbone - Your enthusiasm for playing to people always comes through in your writing, I really like that. I guess there must be ups and downs to playing in the open at a market but you always seem to be looking on the bright side? (in the UK it would be the rain - have you seen the pics from Glasonbury?)
nate - yes sure I've read a few threads too, but there isn't the intensity or frequency vs the one about embouchure (I mean the lips bit).
Isaac talked about measurable things, and in terms of that, you might have thought that the things that change your sound the most might get priority in discussions. There are lots of different ways to use your hands rather than just wahs.
If the reason is that all harp players have reached agreement - well I would find that difficult to credit.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 29, 2014 11:51 AM
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5F6H
1801 posts
Jun 29, 2014
11:50 AM
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Guy - "That's what I'm on about, understanding what makes a big difference vs fine tuning."
Ha ha, with respect to either subject it's hard to get consensus on where the divide between big differences & fine tuning sits. But, I look at them both (embouchure, amps etc) pretty much the same broad way. Irrespective of amp, or how you fit your face to the harp, I try and identify if there is anything that is a bottleneck - a factor that is having a significant negative impact on the sound. Eliminate the obstacles/malfunctions/what's wrong (in a more objective sense) - an amp that's functioning as it should/good breath technique...then the fine tweaks to get from "serviceable/solid/foundation" to something more esoteric. But in doing so, as your standards rise, or the bigger most important stumbling blocks are eliminated & advances become smaller %-wise, it can still be the fine tuning that then has a big subjective impact...turning something that is good, with nothing identifiably wrong with it, into something unique/particularly desirable?
I think that's something that can be translated to many artistic/creative/subjectively based activities...building blocks, refinement, then the filigree - you can't be a great chef if you're serving people raw chicken?
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MindTheGap
465 posts
Jun 29, 2014
12:24 PM
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Mark, yes I get you. Ah yes, consensus is a definitely a tricky one! But I thought looking at the heat of debate might give some clues.
Imagine everyone asked you about pre-amp tubes and not about, say, speakers. A person like me might think that choice of speaker didn't matter all that much. (Actually speakers do get discussed a fair bit, I notice.)
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5F6H
1802 posts
Jun 29, 2014
12:57 PM
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The preamp tube, like LB/TB/UB, isn't the whole story, they're aspects of it. Embouchure, diaphragm, internal cavities together are the whole. What you ultimately hear is the culmination of all of them.
Just like you hear the whole of the amplification chain, without eliminating/identifying the weakest link, you can't attribute specific characteristics to an individual player/part/stage/amp...you can make educated guesses as to a safer bet/start point if you have enough known factors & experience of that specific scenario.
A process of elimination & it's always best to assess first hand.
A given tube/speaker might be fine in one amp, a non starter in another (depending on what frequencies either accentuates). A player might sound great with one embouchure, not so much with another (possibly as much down to greater familiarity, WRT certain moves, with one over the other & given that most players mix them somewhat).
Preamp tubes & speaker subs get discussed a lot, not just because of tangible difference/preference, but also because subs are reasonably safe & accessible...how many references do you see (in comparison) to B+/power tube plate voltage (risky things for a novice to measure)?
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Frank
4717 posts
Jun 29, 2014
6:14 PM
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Ain't got time to talk fine details at the moment so here is an example - sure you seen it, but it answers a lot of the question :)
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walterharp
1435 posts
Jun 29, 2014
6:40 PM
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I agree Frank (if that is indeed your point), one of the best in the business sounds treble and reedy through a vocal mic. it is not bad tone in my book, but that is what you get playing that way. The tube amp and bullet mike would clearly drop those high overtones and give more of the low, fat, distorted, but less cutting tone.
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jbone
1673 posts
Jun 29, 2014
7:27 PM
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As far as venues for acoustic playing, maybe a train station, bus terminal, etc would work for a big inside venue where acoustic adventures could be had. Aside from that, remember, I began walking trails in the woods blowing up harps trying to sound like "that guy".
I had friends whop tried to help me along but I was such a poster child early on I had to just get alone to get the basics, then come back and try again.
When I began to afford $$ for an amp and mic I pretty much left the study of tone behind for a time and relied on what I already had- not much!- and the power of a cm bullet and a vintage Princeton amp. There came a time though when I was seriously awakened to the importance of acoustic tone and the journey began in earnest.
The more you practice a given way- amped, unamped, p.a., whatever, the more you familiarize yourself with what works and how to improve. Some of it you get from a forum and some you have to find to your own satisfaction.
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