Frank
4608 posts
Jun 22, 2014
8:44 AM
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Please feel free to participate in this thread and share your thoughts and beliefs on the subject at hand, Thank you:)
Muscles are used when playing the harmonica -
And it is important to keep them relaxed when executing bends and maneuvering intricate riffs and phrasings up and down the harp ...
But can you persuade those fundamentally essential muscles to respond accordingly if they ARE'NT STRONG, are untrained and weak?
When your tongue, throat, neck etc- muscles are properly strengthened - they can and will react to the commands you call upon them to do with precision and power.
When those muscles are strong, you'll be able to use them at will without tensing up...You will feel them react as you are able to remain relaxed.
You can remain poised when they are strong, because they are use to being exercised and know what is expected of them to do.
Trying to do things on the harmonica with weak mouth, tongue and throat muscles can cause a lot of frustration and disillusionment
So, the point that I am wanting to get across here is this...
Remember that in time those muscles needed to play the harmonica enjoyably well will take time to develop and by being aware of them can help link your mind to technique when learning Tongue Blocking, Lip Blocking Etc :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 22, 2014 11:15 AM
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robbert
329 posts
Jun 22, 2014
9:29 AM
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Fourteen or more years into focus on playing harmonica, I'm finally becoming much more aware of what muscular action is needed to perform particular bends, and what is unnecessary tension.
This has been slowly revealed through working on various techniques and what it takes to produce those sounds...ie: tongue blocked bends as opposed to pursed bends, overbending, etc.
Also, breathing in conjunction with various techniques, and various harps(gaps high, gaps low, various keys, etc),at various speeds and volumes(dynamics) becomes a focal point.
How much air pressure do you need to accomplish a two half step bend on the 3 draw of a C harp in comparison to the same thing on a G harp?
Attack comes into play...hard and fast vs. long tones, for instance...but do you play harder and faster to express that fast lick...or do you actually soften your approach and relax your breath even more to execute the lick. How do you measure out your breath for the long tone...
It seems to be a matter of attention, experimentation, discovery, practice, muscle memory. You pay attention to what your body does to achieve something, and then practice until the muscle memory has it.
All this seems to happen over the long haul. It's a function of just doing something long enough, I guess.
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Philosofy
569 posts
Jun 22, 2014
9:42 AM
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I saw an interesting clip of Joe Filisko. He said that people tell him that puckering is a more natural embouchure than tongue blocking. Then he asked what is easier: he puckered his lips, then he stuck his tongue out slightly, and moved it a little to the left. Try it. There is much more muscular effort involved in puckering.
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shadoe42
301 posts
Jun 22, 2014
10:56 AM
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One thing I have always found interesting about playing musical instruments...any of them really. Is that in order to play them well you have to be able to play with muscles that are controlled but relaxed. Harmonica you get way better tone with a relaxed deep embrochure than with tense lips/jaws/etc. You can also play faster that way as you are not fighting your own muscles to play.
Same with irish whistle. To develop the back pressure needed for both whistle and sometimes harp you have to learn to relax the facial muscles and play easy so to speak.
Guitar is the same way except in the arms and shoulder. Playing with a relaxed motion and not trying to force the issue leads to far greater speeds.
And of course singing. Tightening up the throat muscles is one of the worst things you can do. A friend sings in such a way that at times I cannot watch. The muscles on his throat are so tight and bulge to such an extent I am constantly afraid he is going to rupture a vocal cord or other muscle.
In order to sing to your full ability you have to relax those muscles and control the flex. And of course properly support your tone which I have found the same thing works for harp tone. Proper vocal diaphragmic (haha is that even a word?) support helps me sustain good tone longer and louder in both vocals and harp.
And I must agree that much of this only comes after long hours of practice for most of us. Especially the diaphragm support. I have gotten passingly good at explaining to those unfamiliar with it but in the end it is still something you have to practice and stay focused on until it clicks.
That support is something I rarely see mentioned in conjunction with the harp but I found that it really increased my breath control and time between breaths when I applied that same vocal support to harp playing.
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Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
My Electronic Music World
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walterharp
1426 posts
Jun 22, 2014
11:25 AM
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Of course with any activity that requires body movement, building endurance makes it so you can work harder longer. However I disagree with the point of being relaxed to a point.
For continued fast playing, the muscles involved are fast switch, and relaxation only helps if 1) you stop to rest them, or 2) there are other opposing muscles that are tight. The reason explanation 2 may not be very important is because for repeated motions you need to alternatively fire the opposing muscles repeatedly.
For muscles that you use longer periods (like holding open your throat continuously), slow twitch, they must be continuously engaged so do not need to relax.
What really helps expend less energy playing is getting embouchure such that minimal breath is needed for maximal volume. I think this is more about muscular control and the power needed to keep certain geometry in your mouth and throat.
For a deep tone, then yes, opening up everything and relaxing where possible helps get to that place. But every tone does not need to be deep for all players. Sometimes tightness might accentuate the edgy nature that makes a song sound better.
There are certain songs where, for example, Ricci does not seem to be at all relaxed, and rather is wound tight as a spring. He is playing rapid notes and does not need deep tone.
I just think that there is this series of things we do to help beginners get past thin weak notes, or that help with a particular tone (e.g. tongue block, tight cup, deep open embouchure for that TONE that many players think is the holy grail) that leads to this canonic list of how things must be done. I think focusing too tightly on this list may, at times, hinder the development of intermediate players.
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Frank
4613 posts
Jun 22, 2014
11:40 AM
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Ricci is mentally relaxed though ( which ultimately separates the BEST from the rest) ...
He knows he can trust the muscles needed to get the job done, so even though they are fired up and all pistons are burning - he has to be relaxed to get the results he does.
Any tension would kill his musical story line in an instant :)
His muscles aren't tense, they are pumped and primed to execute his musical vision!
Also - holding your throat open continuously is accomplished precisely through practicing the relaxation of it especially once you have control of its muscles :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 22, 2014 12:02 PM
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harpdude61
2021 posts
Jun 22, 2014
3:37 PM
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Philosiphy....I agree, more muscle involved in "puckering" simply because you pucker. The kissy shape takes muscle effort.
However, I believe less muscle is used in the lip blocking technique. All the facial muscles are relaxed including the tongue.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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arzajac
1408 posts
Jun 23, 2014
3:08 AM
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It's a matter of fine motor control. Sure, you need some foundation of getting the muscles to do things they are not used to - but even in that case, I'm not sure if it's building muscle or building nerve pathways that's the most significant component.
Bending notes is simply making an air pocket in your mouth. Your ears and other senses tell you when it's the correct size to cause the resonance you need for the bend.
The hard part is that in a draw bend, the floppy tissues of your mouth will cave in as you increase negative pressure and change the size of the air pocket. You need to zero-in on the right size and the right amount of muscle tension to make the pocket keep it's shape across a range of breath force. This is fine motor work, not force.
It's probably a lot more work at the beginning because we overcompensate and need to steer widely until we get comfortable.
On a blow bend, the air pocket in your mouth is made with positive pressure and so the soft tissues of your mouth tend to bulge. Again, you need to use another set of nerve pathways to compensate for that.
Harmonica teachers use the term "muscle memory". It's the same as learning to write with pen and paper.
Did my hand cramp up in the classroom when I was a little kid? Yes, but once I got through that, I never needed to do finger weights to continue to be able to write neat letters on a page.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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arzajac
1409 posts
Jun 23, 2014
10:29 AM
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Frank, I feel you missed my point.
I feel that playing harmonica is more like writing with a pen than doing heavy lifting.
I haven't written pages full of text in years. If I did today, I'm sure my hand would cramp. To me, that's the same thing as developing chops playing harp. If I wrote five pages every day, my hand wouldn't cramp up so much over time.
But, there are no finger exercises (like lifting weights) that I could do to make writing for hours any easier. It's not a matter of building muscle. It's about building the motor pathways so that the fine muscles work together.
I think it's those pathways that fade if we don't practice playing harmonica. The muscles don't atrophy since they are used (a lot more) all day and night for breathing, talking, swallowing, smiling, kissing, etc...
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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Frank
4628 posts
Jun 23, 2014
11:00 AM
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No one mentioned heavy lifting to strengthen the muscles necessary to make harmonica playing easier to do :)
Comparing use of a pen in the hand, to a harp in the mouth is not the best analogy as far as the muscles which need to be strong :)
The mouth and hand muscles are two entirely separate issues :)
Never advocated using any kind of mouth weights either other then the harmonica :)
Harmonica playing chop muscles will weaken considerably if you don't use them - smiling, swallowing, talking and breathing won't keep a players muscle playing chops strong :)
I do agree the fine muscles used to play good harp must cooperate with each other :)
And have always believed repetition saturates the motor pathways so we can become expert at something :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 23, 2014 11:03 AM
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shadoe42
302 posts
Jun 23, 2014
11:26 AM
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Honestly I think there are valid points on all sides ... I do think that playing with a relaxed feel is important. I think to that there is some mistaking "relaxed" for uncontrolled.
When I say relaxed I mean "without unwanted tension", Tension should be applied purposefully. Having to much nervous tension with not do your playing any good.
I do actually like your point arzajac about writing for long periods of time. The "strengenthing" exercises are designed for stamina not quick heavy lifts. Same with instruments, you develope muscle memory and nerve pathways that allow you to play more consistantly over longer play periods.
And at least in my own experience playing relaxed with no unwanted tension is the key to that overall. Not the only key of course but certainly one of the more important ones.
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Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
My Electronic Music World
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tmf714
2604 posts
Jun 23, 2014
11:47 AM
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I would certainly not take any musician seriously if they referred to it as "embrochure"-
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Frank
4629 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:07 PM
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Musicians are illiterate, who you tryin to kid :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 23, 2014 12:07 PM
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tmf714
2605 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:09 PM
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Speak for yourself-I for one am not.
Then you wonder why harmonica players are not taken seriously most of the time-0
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 23, 2014 12:10 PM
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Frank
4630 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:10 PM
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The good ones are :)
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tmf714
2606 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:12 PM
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GOOD-yes GREAT-no and there in lies the irony.
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Frank
4632 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:18 PM
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The C&^%Sucking spam monster got my last response - wait till it shows up, you'll love it :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 23, 2014 12:18 PM
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STME58
938 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:37 PM
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Is an "embroucher" a short pamphlet on how to place ones lips on an instrument?
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STME58
939 posts
Jun 23, 2014
12:40 PM
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Frank,
Did you mean the good harmonica players are taken seriously, or they are illiterate? :-)
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Frank
4642 posts
Jun 24, 2014
11:15 AM
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Good musicians who are not illiterate aren't in general taken seriously :)
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mlefree
162 posts
Jun 24, 2014
11:48 AM
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Just for the record, I believe the term is, "embouchure." :)
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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Frank
4643 posts
Jun 24, 2014
12:17 PM
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No fair - You googled it, the greatest musicians don't rely on google :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 24, 2014 12:18 PM
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STME58
947 posts
Jun 24, 2014
12:22 PM
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From the evidence I have seen on this forum, Frank is both literate and a good musician, however, I am careful about when to take him seriously!
;-)
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Frank
4644 posts
Jun 24, 2014
12:28 PM
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NEVER - take me seriously - you'll undoubtedly seed the graveyard 5 to 10 years sooner than you would have if you dare to...I am like cancer, do not play with cigarettes - they always get the last laugh in the end...Its a dichotomy you see, ALWAYS take the cancer stick seriously, but not me personally - even though I may give you cancer. But not the kind that kills you - only leaves you slightly emotionally scarred - but in a good and fun loving way :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 24, 2014 12:55 PM
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