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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Condescending Remarks.
Condescending Remarks.
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Ugly Bones Ryan
70 posts
May 28, 2014
11:04 AM
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Being an 18 year old I have to deal with teenagers every day. They will sometimes say the condescending comment "harmonica isn't a real instrument" especially when they ask which instruments I play (I play two others). I'm not sure where this insecure tone comes from but it confuses me. Do full grown adults say this same stuff or is it just whiny teenagers?
Thoughts?
Ugly Bones Ryan
Last Edited by Ugly Bones Ryan on May 28, 2014 5:13 PM
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FMWoodeye
834 posts
May 28, 2014
11:07 AM
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Unfortunately, you'll find uninformed people of all ages.
Remember, this is a country in which professional wrestling flourishes.
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barbequebob
2573 posts
May 28, 2014
11:25 AM
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Scojo's right about that and a big part of the reason, like it or not, comes from harp players themselves just on attitude alone, along with how they tend to go about things.
If you want a different attitude, it has to start with you and learn to approach it like a real musician and do things that harp players are notoriously too damned lazy to bother to learn, things like basic music theory, knowing where every note on your instrument is regardless of what key your harps are tuned to, and time, and that's for starters, and all of those are things that people who play other instruments often get totally pissed off at harp players in general for and, cold, hard, brutal truth be told, they are 100% TOTALLY LEGITIMATE complaints and because harp players are often too damned lazy to bother to learn these things, they'e getting the treatment the deserve to get and yet these same players are the first to complain about that using what I refer to as the Rodney Dangerfield Syndrome, which comes from the famous punch line that the late comedian Rodney Dangerfield always used, which was "I get no respect."
Harmonica players are too often deemed the dumbest musician on the bandstand because they often don't learn any of the stuff I mentioned and they are often too damned hard headed to understand that they're fulfilling and perpetuating those negative stereotypes and it's their own fault they'e getting dissed and often better players suffer from that (tho they suffer less than a crappy player does)>
Most harp players that I tell that to don't like being told that, even tho they know it IS the truth. Best advice is to make sure you NEVER allow yourself to be like the average player in the way they do things and start doing those things I mentioned and then some and part of being a REALLY good musician is not just with playing skills, but also with listening skills as well and avoid falling into a stereotype that a line in The Three Stooges had, which was, "I listen, but I don't pay attention."
Now why did I say that?? Too many musicians (and harp players ARE INCLUDED in that) tend too pay attention only to solos but if you're gonna want to learn how to listen to music like a real musician, you gotta be paying attention not only to the solos, but EVERY LITTLE DETAIL OF WHAT'S GOING ON 24/7/365, which means the time, the groove, what the rhythm is, what everyone on that bandstand is doing in the very smallest of detail, as a pro once told me that there is NO SUCH THING as a detail too small, too boring or too unimportant to pay attention to.
The only harmonica player who has ever lived who had almost universal respect not just from the public but musicians of just about every genre was the late chromatic giant Larry Adler, who was probably the first harmonica player ever to attempt to play classical music.
Keep on pushing, keep learning, keep on honing your craft and one thing you must also learn along the way is to grow thicker skin.
Remember, for every good or great player the public tends to see, they often see 10,00+++ really crappy players FAR more often.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on May 28, 2014 11:26 AM
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DukeBerryman
389 posts
May 28, 2014
11:57 AM
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I got a harmonica teacher, but really he's a music teacher. He's taught me more about music than about the harmonica. Luckily, my teacher got me hip to what BBQBob is talking about. As long as you are a student of music, and take it seriously, it doesn't matter what instrument you play. (teacher is Dave Gage).
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Gnarly
1014 posts
May 28, 2014
11:59 AM
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the world of appearances.
If you are looking for respect, give your audience (whoever they may be) something to impress them. That might not be auditory, but rather visual in nature.
Be young, blonde and beautiful, and hopefully female--
At the very least, act like you are cool--how can they tell you aren't?
Boy I'm glad I'm in my 60's . . .
But if it's the music that holds your interest, you will come to understand that a large percentage of the people who hear you can't really pay attention past a certain point, they just can't stay focused on something they can't see.
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eharp
2167 posts
May 28, 2014
12:14 PM
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I think many of us are pretty much in it for the fun. Not many expect recognition or money or accolades. (If they come- fine.)
We are gonna get more than our share of insults and condescending remarks. BIG DEAL.
I hate to tell you, but that is what teenagers do!
And I would bet, if they aint hacking on your harp skills, or lack of, they are making fun of your haircut or car or the way you walk and talk.
And it's just not teenagers. Most people spend a significant part of their idle time gossiping in some manner.
Now Bob is correct; if you want to be taken seriously as a musician among other musicians, follow his suggestions.
Me? I'll never play with true musicians. making music with others, but they are just hobbyists at one level or another. And if I happen to play at an open jam where some want to be snobs, that's on them. What others think about me does not matter.
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MP
3217 posts
May 28, 2014
12:35 PM
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From eharp,
"And I would bet, if they aint hacking on your harp skills, or lack of, they are making fun of your haircut or car or the way you walk and talk.
And it's just not teenagers. Most people spend a significant part of their idle time gossiping in some manner."
That's it in a nutshell. eharp totally nails an abhorrent aspect of human nature. That is why crappy television shows like The Real House Wives of Cucamunga
are so popular. People dig putting others down. (sigh)
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
Last Edited by MP on May 28, 2014 12:35 PM
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jnorem
240 posts
May 28, 2014
12:43 PM
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I completely agree with Bob, and I'll go one step further. During my years as a studio harmonica player I learned to see the harmonica as more of an encompassing concept than a single instrument, much like "percussion" means a plethora of instruments the percussionist must have mastered.
In my opinion and based on my experience, if you really aspire to be a well-rounded musician who plays the harmonica, along with being able to intelligently approach the diatonic as an instrument and not just a delivery system for blues licks you must have at least a working ability to pay the chromatic harmonica in different keys, you must be able to read music, you must have solid grounding in music theory and you must be able to get around on the piano. Also, you must be able to maintain your instruments so that they're always ready to operate up to spec. These are crucial; all musicians have these abilities and there's no reason for a harmonica player not to.
By itself, the diatonic harmonica isn't really much a viable instrument in an ensemble setting; it's your total expertise that makes it one, not your ability to play blues licks, although that is part of it.
I've always left the mechanics to the experts; I know nothing about amplification or electronics or how to build harmonicas, but I've never had to know those things because there are experts in those fields that I can call upon.
Now these days I don't care anymore about the highfalutin professional business world, I've done that stuff and now all I want to do is play real blues, like what I listened to when I was a kid, with my mic and my amp and a good band. Which is bloody hard to do these days for some reason.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on May 28, 2014 12:48 PM
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eharp
2169 posts
May 28, 2014
12:59 PM
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Perhaps because your head is full of theory and it aint letting your heart talk?
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scojo
483 posts
May 28, 2014
1:24 PM
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"...if you really aspire to be a well-rounded musician who plays the harmonica, along with being able to intelligently approach the diatonic as an instrument and not just a delivery system for blues licks you must have at least a working ability to pay the chromatic harmonica in different keys...By itself, the diatonic harmonica isn't really much a viable instrument in an ensemble setting"
Wow. Speaking of condescending remarks... Okay, somebody tell this to Howard Levy, Carlos Del Junco, Sam Friedman and others who do just fine on the diatonic alone. While I agree with much of the rest of your statement, I don't agree with this part at all.
Last Edited by scojo on May 28, 2014 1:24 PM
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LSC
639 posts
May 28, 2014
1:46 PM
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@ barbequebob - "The only harmonica player who has ever lived who had almost universal respect not just from the public but musicians of just about every genre was the late chromatic giant Larry Adler..."
Great as he was, you might want to consider John Sebastian, Toots Thielman, and no doubt others before making a blanket statement that Adler was the only one who ever lived to gain respect from the broad general and musician public.
As far as being the first to attempt classical music on harmonica, again you may be right but a dangerous statement in that one never knows who might have inspired Adler to make the attempt. There could have been some guy on a street corner for all we know.
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LSC
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jnorem
241 posts
May 28, 2014
2:35 PM
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@scojo : You quote me as saying "By itself, the diatonic harmonica isn't really much a viable instrument in an ensemble setting"
"Wow. Speaking of condescending remarks... Okay, somebody tell this to Howard Levy, Carlos Del Junco, Sam Friedman and others who do just fine on the diatonic alone. While I agree with much of the rest of your statement, I don't agree with this part at all."
I don't agree with it either. And I don't appreciate your editing out of my statement the part where I said: "it's your total expertise that makes it one."
If you disagree with the idea that it's the player's expertise that makes the diatonic harmonica a viable instrument, well then good luck to you.
@eharp: "Perhaps because your head is full of theory and it aint letting your heart talk?"
If you'd just learn a little theory you'd understand that it doesn't work like that.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on May 28, 2014 2:39 PM
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CarlA
511 posts
May 28, 2014
2:44 PM
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Oh boy........!!!!!
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eharp
2170 posts
May 28, 2014
2:48 PM
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I do know a little theory.
Like most, there is room for growth but it isn't a very high priority for me at this time.
Sometimes folks get to over-thinking things.
I have heard about many classical musicians, very well versed in theory, that can't improvise to save their souls.
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STME58
842 posts
May 28, 2014
2:58 PM
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"By itself, the diatonic harmonica isn't really much a viable instrument in an ensemble setting; it's your total expertise that makes it one, "
Hopefully I have taken enough of the quote to get it in context. This applies to any instrument. I have yet to send my trombone into the quintet by itself and have it do well :-)!
Kidding aside, I think the harmonica's accessibility, in low cost, portability and ease of getting OK sounding notes out of it, that make it more prone to abuse. How many times do you see a novice with sax or a trumpet at a jam who think they sound great? The fact that you are more likely to see a hack with a harmonica than a hack with a stand up bass, doesn't take anything away from the true harmonica master.
"Do full grown adults say this same stuff or is it just whiny teenagers? " I can see an answer to this unfolding in this thread.
Last Edited by STME58 on May 28, 2014 3:00 PM
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Steamrollin Stan
774 posts
May 28, 2014
3:21 PM
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This is the reason I wont play out :)
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STME58
844 posts
May 28, 2014
3:25 PM
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"By itself, the diatonic harmonica isn't really much a viable instrument in an ensemble setting; it's your total expertise that makes it one, "
I think this exemplifies that statement
Margaret Leng Tan
And you thought harmonica was a hard sell in a serious setting!
Last Edited by STME58 on May 28, 2014 3:26 PM
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jnorem
242 posts
May 28, 2014
3:48 PM
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To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what I was driving at when I said "By itself, the diatonic harmonica blah blah blah.." Now that I read it, It doesn't make much sense. I was typing faster than I was thinking, i guess, but I do stand by the rest of my post.
Learn some theory, learn to play the chromatic in different keys, learn to play the scales and read music, learnt to play a little piano. You won't care about any condescending remarks when you can do all that, take my word for it.
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Call me J
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STME58
845 posts
May 28, 2014
3:58 PM
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@jnorem,
I took what you meant to say to be it is the musician, not the instrument that makes the music work, or not. I think the statement does make sense. My first post made a bit of fun with the exact phrasing, but in the second post I was quite serious. A good musician can make music on literally a toy instrument. Conversely, if you handed me a Stradivarius, you might not want to stick around and listen.
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Aussiesucker
1395 posts
May 28, 2014
4:02 PM
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Whilst I agree with a lot of what BBQ Bob has said I think it is a little harsh. I play with lots of bluegrass musicians of whom many look down on harp players whereas dumb ass banjo or guitar players get respect and help. Fortunately I am well accepted but it was in the initial stages a case of be seen and not heard and only speak when spoken to.
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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kudzurunner
4725 posts
May 28, 2014
4:43 PM
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I think the the harmonica's relatively low repute among a significant segment of the general public traces to three things:
1) the comic tradition of harmonica trios and quartets that prevailed for many years: it's an instrument played by funny-looking guys who roll their eyes and make silly sounds. Not a SERIOUS instrument, but an adjunct to slapstick comedy
2) the fact that it's "the people's instrument," something anybody, even (or especially) somebody with no musical education, can pick up and play chords and simple songs on almost immediately. So therefore it doesn't take "study" and isn't a serious instrument.
3) the fact that most people simply haven't heard diatonic harmonica played really well. They've heard all the "people's instrument" types wheezing on it; they've heard Dylan, Billy Joel, the first-position wheezers. But they haven't heard masterful stuff on the Sonny Terry to Little Walter continuum. (And they think of whatever Stevie Wonder is doing on chromatic as something else entirely.)
Plus, of course, it's small. The piccolo, I suspect, doesn't have much of a rep with the general public, either. Or the fife.
The strange counterargument to what I've just said is that if you travel overseas and, at the moment you're ID'd as an American, pull out a harp and make some bluesy sounds, everybody is your friend. It's an incredibly LIKEABLE instrument. That's been my experience.
One more corollary: I think that other musicians, both pop and orchestral, look down on harmonica players because they see them as marginal musicians--people who probably don't read music, probably don't have much harmonic knowledge, and probably can't play melodies to standard songbook repertoire. All we're good for is "jamming along on a blues" and stepping all over the vocalist.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 28, 2014 4:49 PM
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Frank
4390 posts
May 28, 2014
5:16 PM
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"harmonica isn't a real instrument"
All instruments are FAKE, until you bring them to life...
Take them to a music store and have them sit at a beautiful piano and say play it...When they try and they sound like shit, say - that doesn't sound like a real instrument to me bubba?
Next give them a bass to play etc, when they sound like shit, tell em - don't sound like a real instrument to me.
They should get the point...
Then bring them over to a computer, go to youtube - punch in Jason Ricci or whoever you like that can play and say...You want to see and hear a real instrument in action, press play and sit back and watch them squirm :)
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The Centipide Saloon
Tip Your Waiter Please
Last Edited by Frank on May 28, 2014 5:18 PM
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STME58
846 posts
May 28, 2014
5:18 PM
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"if you travel overseas and, at the moment you're ID'd as an American, pull out a harp and make some bluesy sounds, everybody is your friend."
I can attest to this. It works in spite of the language barrier.
I have also had people come up to me in the US on more that one occasion and say "I didn't know you could play Bach on the harmonica!"
Size may be a factor but it is not the only one. The trombone gets its share of derision among other musicians. Piccolo and fife can carry further than most instruments so you can bother a large number of neighbors. There was a reason the fife was used to signal troops on the battlefield!
The size and meager volume of the harp can be an advantage, perhaps is is jealousy form other instrument players than contributes to the disdain.
Here is a quote from Toots Thielemans;
"You can be in Tokyo or Alberta at four in the morning in your hotel and you can still practice if you feel like it. A trombone cannot do that at four in the morning."
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garry
516 posts
May 28, 2014
5:25 PM
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my response: why would i want to play anything else?
i didn't decide to be a musician and choose harp as my instrument. i only ever wanted to play harp. nothing else sounds like that. nothing else speaks to me the same way.
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Last Edited by garry on May 28, 2014 5:26 PM
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GMaj7
428 posts
May 28, 2014
5:30 PM
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I really don't think we should place our identity in the opinion of others (Except maybe our mamma..!)
As musicians and artists, we are crowd pleasers by nature but if a few don't like our stuff, move on.
The great bluesmen Bach and Beethoven were subjected to some condescending remarks, too. Its just nobody knows exactly by whom, though.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Ugly Bones Ryan
73 posts
May 28, 2014
5:32 PM
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@garry I play two other instruments but honestly Garry thanks. Perfect response. The thing is I've grown so accustomed to this comment that it doesn't bother me, it just leaves me kinda speachless. Like "uhhhh ok" used to be my reponse but I guess I know what mine will be from now on.
Last Edited by Ugly Bones Ryan on May 28, 2014 5:35 PM
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Frank
4391 posts
May 28, 2014
6:07 PM
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Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out.
John Wooden
If all your capable of doing on the harp is playing 2 notes in time with a groove - don't break under the pressure of the entire world demanding you to add another friggin note...Be special by "being" special - don't be afraid of being a Master of YOUR best...that is what will make others follow your lead, by being excitingly different :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 28, 2014 6:30 PM
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eharp
2171 posts
May 28, 2014
6:50 PM
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Some of you are sucking the fun right out of my hobby.
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Goldbrick
461 posts
May 28, 2014
7:23 PM
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Why over complicate things. Most people dont know jack shit about music.
Play to the best of your ability and screw 'em.
You will hear people on these forums spout all kind of music terminology that most likely their blues heroes couldnt even pronounce.
Enjoy your instrument
I will often tease my very educated and studio skilled band mate that I can stop a crowd on our busking corner with just the intro to low rider -while they walk by his Django runs.
It like the old joke about how many musicians does it take to change a light bulb-one to change it and 10 to say they could have done it better
Last Edited by Goldbrick on May 28, 2014 7:29 PM
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LSC
640 posts
May 28, 2014
7:44 PM
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On a more positive note (Bb is a good one), I've had no end of people who may or may not be musicians but do not play harmonica say to me;
"I love the sound of harp."
"I need some atmosphere in the track. Can you add some harmonica in there?"
"Harp is sexy."
And my favorite, said just last Sunday by a very experienced and pro to the bone keyboard player, "I tried to play one of those. Just could not figure it out." That was not the first time I've heard that comment by a musician skilled on another instrument.
And finally, one can always point out how many film and television sound tracks feature harmonica, not to mention that it seems to be the trendy instrument for television commercials these days. Put that in your cello and stroke it.
I personally believe that the reason harmonica does not normally get much respect is because being something that appears easy to play, there are a huge percentage of players who assume since they are making a noise they must be playing it.
Then there is the fact that unlike anything other than a kazoo you can put one in your pocket and annoy people anywhere and at a moments notice. Can't do that with guitar or oboe.
Couple those two things with a general lack of common sense which should prevent people from disrespecting the instrument by playing in the wrong key, playing when not asked, stepping on vocals and solos, etc etc.
There are many musicians who are acknowledged as such and have world wide respect who do not no theory, how to play standards or popular hits of the day, chord structure ad nauseam. To gain respect for the instrument and ones self simply gain some degree of competence, use common sense and good manners, have respect for others, and try not to play in situations that are way above ones skill level. Oh, and try not to be an asshole.
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LSC
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LSC
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1847
1830 posts
May 28, 2014
7:55 PM
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It like the old joke about how many musicians does it take to change a light bulb-one to change it and 10 to say they could have done it better
it's one to change the light bulb
19 to to talk about about how good the old one was.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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chromaticblues
1574 posts
May 29, 2014
6:55 AM
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@uglybones
Kingly said all there is to say.
That is the truth!
The reason is because it is so easy to transport and relatively inexpensive so ANYBODY can buy one and begin to make noise immediately!
For the owner of this new instrument that is a beautiful thing! For the rest of the world not so much!
I was guilty of it and many people are. When I first started playing I didn't know any better.
How do you know when your good enough? Should you rely on other people's opinions?
The only defense you have is to prove them wrong!
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scojo
485 posts
May 29, 2014
7:45 AM
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jnorem writes: "And I don't appreciate your editing out of my statement the part where I said: 'it's your total expertise that makes it one.'... If you disagree with the idea that it's the player's expertise that makes the diatonic harmonica a viable instrument, well then good luck to you."
Fair enough, but as written, I accurately conveyed what you said... which was that someone needs to learn their way around the chromatic harmonica to be a "well-rounded musician who plays the harmonica." You wrote (emphasis mine):
"...you must have AT LEAST A WORKING ABILITY TO PLAY THE CHROMATIC HARMONICA IN DIFFERENT KEYS, you must be able to read music, you must have solid grounding in music theory AND you must be able to get around on the piano."
If that final "and" had been an "or," I would have had no quibble at all... as I said, I agreed with other parts of your post very much, including the general thrust of it. I absolutely agree about the "total expertise" part.
You may think it nitpicking, but I do NOT agree that one has to play the chromatic to be a good musician as a diatonic harmonica player (as much as I enjoy and am influenced by the phrasing of the chromatic).
Further, this statement:
"If you disagree with the idea that it's the player's expertise that makes the diatonic harmonica a viable instrument"
...makes me wonder, why do you single out the diatonic? I think this statement actually applies to ANY instrument.
Last Edited by scojo on May 29, 2014 7:46 AM
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barbequebob
2577 posts
May 29, 2014
10:23 AM
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Kudzurunner's post is so absolutely dead on the money here and just the part about the old harmonica orchestras that were popular in the 30's, like Borrah Minevtich And His Harmonica Rascals, who played frequently in Vaudeville often had it in a comedy kind of act where players were literally clowning around a lot and literally kicking each other in the ass, tho very successful in their time, unfortunately helped in part to give the instrument a bad reputation that still lives on.
Some of you may think what I posted is harsh, but I'm being 100% brutally honest and many pros I've met over the years are brutally honest but you do have to learn to compartmentalize things and don't take things personally or you're gonna be a total wreck for the rest of your life, which was something that many pros taught me, and if you find it harsh on a post here, what's gonna happen once you do turn pro and get a bad review, go get a posse to kick the reviewer's behind?? Now that would be dumb and so you HAVE to learn to compartmentalize and stop taking it personally, but just move on.
To say you HAVE to play chromatic may have been true back around 70 years ago if you were to further advance musically, but saying diatonic isn't viable is so totally ridiculous because diatonic players in the last 50 years have been breaking down barriers that were once exclusive domain of chromatic players for quite sometime and even the simplest of all classical music tunes, Jesus The JOY Of Man's Desiring, you absolutely do NOT need to play it on a chromatic at all and the entire melody fits perfectly into 1st position on a diatonic and neither bending nor overblows are necessary.
As far as sight reading skills are concerned, the ONLY areas where this is an absolute necessity at this moment are:
a.) if you're going to be a full time recording session pro;
b.) playing classical music, or:
c.) playing jazz
Playing different positions on a diatonic is not that different than playing different keys on a chromatic because positions in a nutshell ARE keys and the positions are all in the circle of 5ths.
JNorem, what you're saying is the kind of snobbery I've long seen from a lot of old time chromatic players I met many years ago and a lot of chromatic players I've met over the years don't have that attitude at all.
Expertise is expertise, regardless of what the instrument is and any instrument can be a toy in the hands of someone lacking basic skills.
All great musicians never were great out of the gat and they all made noise before they began to truly make music.
LSC -- I have enormous respect for all those you mentioned, but much of the respect they get is largely within the world of the harmonica itself, but what I'm saying is within the world COMPLETELY OUTSIDE of the harmonica.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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kudzurunner
4731 posts
May 29, 2014
11:12 AM
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You're got to have a great groove, a great sound, and musical intelligence if you want to be a great blues harmonica player. You don't need to know a lot of harmony; you just need to know what notes sound great--and when and how to play them.
I've always thought that Big Walter Horton's harp part on Johnny Young's "Tighten Up On It" was as perfect as a harp part can be played. There isn't one note out of place here--or one twelve bar chorus that doesn't contain some little (or big) twist that no other player would have thought of. This isn't break-you-heart harp; it's just incredibly creative and perfectly executed. If you don't agree with me after listening to it once, listen to it again.
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jnorem
244 posts
May 29, 2014
11:22 AM
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I take it that it's okay for BBQ Bob to be brutally honest, but not jnorem (call me J).
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Call me J
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Blowhead9
1 post
May 29, 2014
11:55 AM
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Brutal honesty is entirely cool with me.
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For every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many sould must be trampled. HST
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Danny_D
5 posts
May 29, 2014
12:42 PM
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I guess there are 'cool' instruments but the harmonica is not one of them. Neither is the piano accordion nor the bagpipes. What I did when I started learning these 'uncool' instruments, I posted some very cool youtube videos on my facebook page to show my friends what can be done with these instruments. That just about floored everyone. They had no idea how fantastic these instruments sounded in expert hands, nor did they know their versatility being used in just about any and every music genre.
Anyone who says anything negative about any instrument is simply ignorant.
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Gnarly
1015 posts
May 29, 2014
1:34 PM
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Yeah, software synths are cool and anyone can operate one from their hardware controllers with dark glasses on in a darkened room.
But that harmonica player blew them all away with that one note . . .
Playing in public can make you a target, be brave!
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nacoran
7786 posts
May 29, 2014
2:16 PM
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I'm only really an intermediate player, but by the intermediate level you can walk into any open mic and you shouldn't have any problem convincing people you are playing a real instrument.
Theory is a pain, but it's really useful. It's tough. I know I pound on the circle of fifths as something everyone should at least conceptually know,- part of it is it gives you an easy way to figure out all the positions, and part of it is it helps you understand what keys and modes are. The first, well you can print up a circle of fifths and count, and it's not as fast as having it memorized, but the second part, understanding what keys are, maybe not knowing what the sharps are in a specific key, but understanding that all keys are just repeated patterns with the starting point moved, that is, if you'll pardon the pun, key.
But you know what? I learned that without really understanding it years ago in a music theory class. It was memorization, followed by slow understanding, but it can be tedious. I can pick up a harmonica and practice any little lick and I'm having loads of fun, but the book stuff bores me to tears. When I get through it and have those ah ha moments when I suddenly understand things I can apply to my playing it's wonderful, but sometimes it's like going to the dentist. You don't want to do it, but you know that in the long run you are better off if you endure it every now and then.
How much you enjoy learning theory, I'm sure, is a spectrum. There are people who love learning it just because it's there. There are people who won't ever bother. There are things I can't or couldn't do on the harp though that I could vaguely conceptualize that knowing a bit of theory helped me get to. If you want to play with other musicians you'll run into people who can't tell you what harp you need and if you don't know, you're stuck (at least until you develop an ear for it, but several years into my journey, I still get the key faster by knowing, okay, the band is in X so I need to play in Z than by grabbing harps until I find the right one.
So, yeah, they can be a toy, or they can be an instrument, or anything in between. I've played some terrible harmonica early on in my open mic career, but I'm not embarrassed, because I was learning. I've heard some terrible guitar, and especially some terrible singing, by people who've gone on to wow me a couple years down the line.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Blowhead9
2 posts
May 29, 2014
2:26 PM
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If someone doesn't want to, or think they need to, learn much theory to play blues on the diatonic harmonica, ok, that's fine, probably even true. The ones who get me are the guys who think that if you learn too much it might hurt your playing. You can know too much? No, I think that's just rationalizing.
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For every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled. HST
Last Edited by Blowhead9 on May 29, 2014 2:26 PM
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jnorem
246 posts
May 29, 2014
2:58 PM
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nacoran, what makes the study of theory a whole lot easier is having some kind of keyboard to learn on. It should have at least three and a half octaves, other than that it can be any old cheap thing, as long as it makes a decent sound.
With a keyboard you can "see" music theory, and that makes it all much clearer and easier to understand. And you'll also pick up some keyboard chops along the way!
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Call me J
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nacoran
7788 posts
May 30, 2014
1:16 AM
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jnorem, I've got a keyboard that I drag out. I agree. Keyboard is a much easier instrument to visualize theory on. I do slowly let more seep in. I miss the classroom setting though. There was something about the panic of having to get the reading done before the test that would motivate me. :)
I can't play too much on the piano. I took a week of piano in college and had to give it up. I've always had problems with my wrists, and the piano had me into borderline carpal tunnel syndrome. Same problem with guitar. That's actually how I eventually became a harmonica player though, so it's all good. :)
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Nate
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jbone
1638 posts
May 30, 2014
5:46 AM
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Lots of great counsel here!
Quick story: Wife and I play a farmers' market in the nice weather, which exposes all kinds of folks and all ages to what we do. Mostly blues and roots rock. So cool to see people who won't even look at you, bobbing the head or springing the step and they go by, and you know it's YOU who is doing that!
One afternoon a crowd of younger people- 16-18 maybe walked by and never glanced in our direction. Except the one kid in the back of the pack, who ran back and tossed a few bucks in the case! He was about 16.
One more: Jo and I are doing Not Fade Away one hot afternoon next to the Asian veggie stand and 2 guys with black metal tees on and crazy hair stand listening, and talking to each other. I'm thinking we're about to get heckled and when they come over after the song I'm ready for anything. almost. "Excuse us, ma'am, sir, we don't have $10 for a cd, would you take $7? We really dig what you're doing!" Coulda knocked me over with a feather. We sold them the cd.
Open mind, open heart, big bold sound.
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Littoral
1084 posts
May 30, 2014
6:02 AM
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Adam's 2) "...anybody, even (or especially) somebody with no musical education, can pick up and play chords and simple songs on almost immediately."
I think this is a really big deal because you really can't do this on any other instrument and it leads to hacks being able to play just enough to be a pain in the ass.
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Frank
4414 posts
May 30, 2014
6:36 AM
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:)
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The Iceman
1688 posts
May 30, 2014
8:10 AM
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1. That Big Walter tune above is excellent.
2. Music theory...it's no big burden if you become truly curious about how and why music works rather than doing it because you are supposed to.
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The Iceman
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scojo
486 posts
May 30, 2014
9:03 AM
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JNorem wrote: "I take it that it's okay for BBQ Bob to be brutally honest, but not jnorem (call me J)."
J, no one is criticizing your honesty. We're criticizing the substance of what you appeared to be saying, which is that a harmonica player must learn his or her way around the chromatic to be musically legit. That's nonsense, and BBQ Bob explained why very well. As I said, I agreed with the gist of what you said except for that part. But that part is very loaded and has a bad history in the harmonica world.
I've always hated the "I'm just being honest" argument. It's a close cousin to the people who cry "Free Speech!" after saying something awful... because they only think their own speech should be free. I'm not saying that's what you did here. But honesty alone is not an inoculation against criticism.
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Frank
4415 posts
May 30, 2014
9:13 AM
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Frank
4417 posts
May 30, 2014
9:43 AM
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This tune I wrote about differences and makin friends :)
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