kudzurunner
4628 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:26 PM
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Imagine for the sake of argument that somebody with impeccable credentials came forward to say that they had an old leather case containing four old Hohner Marine Band harps that Little Walter had played during his American Folk Blues tour in England. Imagine that they could prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those WERE Little Walter's harps. And imagine that that person had contacted you to ask whether you could appraise the harps.
This is an entirely hypothetical question, I should add. No need to get excited! (Yet.)
I have two questions for general discussion:
1) Who would your first call be to? (I'll tell you who my first call was to, after I've seen your suggestions.)
2) What venue would be likely to reap you the best possible price for those four harps? Would you sell them as a set, BTW, or would you sell them individually?
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 24, 2014 12:27 PM
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walterharp
1356 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:28 PM
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filisko or bbq bob
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barbequebob
2504 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:46 PM
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Lord have mercy, we now have to have the Antiques Roadshow for harp players! lol
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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nacoran
7649 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:53 PM
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My friend suggests you try to get them on an episode of Cajun Pawn stars. Even if you don't sell, you probably make it on the show, which advertises it. And all in the heart of bluesland, and, in the scheme of the U.S. map, not too too far away. Maybe they'd even let you play a riff...
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Nate
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tmf714
2473 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:55 PM
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I would have Joe Filisko appraise and check them-then I would contact the Smithsonian to have them put on display there.
As far as the best price-they should be sold as a set to maintain the provenance. Ebay would be the most popular venue.
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harpwrench
803 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:17 PM
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Dittos tmf714
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CapitalG
28 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:33 PM
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I would ask, without a shadow of doubt, Joe Filisko,
Not sure about best place to sell, I think I would only be right to put them on show.
G
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sonny3
145 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:41 PM
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I would call rock and roll hall of fame.I saw some of Howlin wolfs stuff there, including a marine band with squeezed in covers.They would be interested.Maybe do some DNA testing to be sure.Very exciting!
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BluesJacketman
111 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:42 PM
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THe only way to prove they are little walter harps would be to try and find a dowme dna from the harp(I.E. Dried Spit) have it DNA tested and then sell it. Do a private auction. Advertise the hell out of it. Pay touring harmonica players to promote the auction like Rick Estrin, Adam Gussow, Rod Piazza and such. That how to get the most money. Little walter is only a huge figure on the blues world so not many people will want the set of harps. Not like a Jimmy Hendrix guitar or something like that, but i personally would start bidding at say 2000 but i could see someone paying 8000 to 10,000 in auction for the harmonicas. But you do have to have a DNA test to prove. Otherwise I don't think you could ever prove they were Little Walters harps.
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KingoBad
1454 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:51 PM
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What the hell world do you live in that DNA would be your only proof?
Provenance is established many different ways. Among which can be simply a provable story of how they got them.
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Danny
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BronzeWailer
1245 posts
Mar 24, 2014
2:10 PM
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Your typical harp player hasn't got the dosh to pay much. You need someone that money doesn't mean much to buy them. I would first transform them into an "objet" by scheduling a one-off concert at the Museum of Modern Art featuring Yoko Ono's singing and harp-playing skills; she would play all the harps to give them extra cachet. They would then all be immersed in a tank by Damien Hirst and auctioned off at a gala fundraiser for climate change at a secret location. Michael Bloomberg would kick start the bidding at $100k. Invitations would be hand drawn by Banksy. They would be auctioned individually to create the maximum possible tension among the buyers.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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florida-trader
439 posts
Mar 24, 2014
2:41 PM
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I am intrigued by this question for a couple of reasons. It is hard to argue with Joe Filisko as a great source of information on this subject. That said I’ve had several conversations with Steve Baker in the past couple of years along these same lines. Steve is quite the Hohner Historian and he is good friends with Martin Haefner, curator of the German Harmonika Museum in Trossingen. I brought a rare pre-war Marine Band Deluxe with me to SPAH in 2012 where I was hoping to sell it to a collector for big bucks. I showed it to Steve and he was intimately familiar with the instrument. He excitedly told me the history of it and how this very harmonica was his inspiration for his development of the modern Marine Band Deluxe 2005. The dollars signs I had envisioned grew even bigger. However after thinking it over for a day or so I ultimately decided to donate the harp to the museum.
In fact, I just mailed another donation to the museum last week – a mint condition pre-war Hohner Echo Vamper which was the British version of the Marine Band 1896. It is the only one I have come across in the past three years of accumulating vintage harps.
Vintage harmonicas in and of themselves are not hard to come by. This includes pre-war harmonicas much less harmonicas that might have been used by Walter in 1967. So the value of this collection is most certainly not the harmonicas themselves but the fact that they were played by Walter. So whether it is Joe Filisko, Steve Baker or any other harmonica expert I’m not sure how much information they could add, assuming, as Adam stated that it could be proved beyond a shadow of doubt that these four harps were indeed Walter's. The condition of the harps would hardly matter (in my opinion) and just about anyone who follows this forum could tell if a harp was beat up or in good condition.
If I was interested in cashing in on this rare find I would contact someone who has experience selling rare collectable musical instruments. A quick Google search, for example, turned up http://www.bromptons.co/ According to their website, ‘Brompton's Auctioneers is the leading auction house for the sale of fine musical instruments in Europe and the UK. Consistently sourcing fine instruments and breaking auction records, Brompton’s attracts buyers from around the globe.” I’m sure there are other dealers who are well connected to people with deep pockets.
The other option is put them on display for blues aficionados to see. Perhaps the Chicago Blues Museum would be a good choice since that is where Walter lived and recorded during his prime. Or do you go back to his place of birth in Louisiana?
In a perfect world, you might seek to find a wealthy philanthropist who would be willing to pay you handsomely for your find while agreeing to loan them to a museum of your choice so that anyone who wants to can enjoy seeing them. Everybody wins.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Mar 24, 2014 2:42 PM
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kudzurunner
4629 posts
Mar 24, 2014
2:49 PM
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I fear that some of you may not have taken seriously the point I stressed in my thread-opener: this is purely a hypothetical thread. Nobody, I assure you, has approached me about some Little Walter harps.
My first call, in any case, would have been Pat Missin. But of course Joe is a great suggestion, too. I like the Steve Baker suggestion as well.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 24, 2014 2:52 PM
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timeistight
1519 posts
Mar 24, 2014
3:03 PM
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If the seller can "prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that those WERE Little Walter's harps," then you need an appraiser with experience in music memorabilia, someone from Christie's perhaps, rather than a Filisko or a Missin, who could only rate them as not particularly remarkable post-war Marine Bands.
Edited to add: I see Tom Halchak had already made my point, and more persuasively, too. That'll teach me to post without reading the whole thread.
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 24, 2014 3:08 PM
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Buzadero
1181 posts
Mar 24, 2014
3:21 PM
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Yup. Pat Missin would be my direction. But, either Joe or Steve Baker are as credible as they come.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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XHarp
547 posts
Mar 24, 2014
4:21 PM
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Well, whoever would have these and made the claim could be the needed provenance. From there certificates of authenticity from each of Joe and Pat then off to Sotheby's.
Hey if Dylan's and Clapton's Strat best the $900K mark this dream has got to be worth some good bucks too.
Of course the right thing would be to donate them to the Smithsonian but we all got retire someday so if you can get a piece of the action you gotta' go.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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Frank101
10 posts
Mar 24, 2014
4:28 PM
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A complete list of people who MIGHT pay top dollar for Little Walter-used harps:
Bruce Willis
Steven Tyler
Mick Jagger
Robert Plant
Bob Dylan
Pretty sure that's it.
Last Edited by Frank101 on Mar 25, 2014 6:18 AM
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nacoran
7651 posts
Mar 24, 2014
5:05 PM
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I think the bigger the market would be, the bigger the price, so instead of 'a set of harmonicas' I'd bill it as blues memorabilia, or even black heritage (which it certainly would fall into). Most harp players realize a harp is great, but it's not like a guitar. A guitar player may have several guitars, and maybe one is their favorite, their Lucille, but harmonicas are something that every serious harp player will have a bunch of, even on a single tour. Now, if you could prove that these harps were played on a specific day... one of Bonnie and Clydes guns is worth a bit, the ones they had on them when they died, that's a different story.
Missin would be a good choice! Now, if we are purely hypothetical, and we can play with the parameters a bit, and it's an early harmonica and you can't find where it was made, there is a good harmonica collectors site on FB. David Payne is a good source too, although he seems to have fallen off the face of the internet.
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Nate
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groyster1
2575 posts
Mar 24, 2014
5:22 PM
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if harps exhibited as little walters on ebay Im quite sure some gullible individual would buy them and for big bucks....there are some who will buy anything if the price is high enough....
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blueswannabe
451 posts
Mar 24, 2014
7:52 PM
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Assuming the harps are age appropriate and can be verified by model numbers and markings, the biggest issue is going to be Chain of custody. Photographs would be very helpful and affidavits will be required.
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isaacullah
2698 posts
Mar 25, 2014
6:11 AM
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So, if it were "just" a case full of old harmonicas, I imagine any of the names above (Missin, Filisko, Baker), or Payne, Yerxa, [...insert harmonica history buff here...] could give you a reasonable estimate of value. Almost certainly that would not exceed $100-200 per harp (if they were VERY well preserved old harps).
That's not the point of your hypothetical question, however. The point is that there is a claim said harps were owned/played by someone FAMOUS. So, you don't need a harmonica history buff; you need someone who knows how to authenticate stuff owned by FAMOUS people. You might be able to find someone who deals in memorabilia, and ask them to authenticate this for you. I think that in this case, it wouldn't be the harps that could be authenticated, but the "leather case" they are in. One would need to find photos or video from that tour, and try to find an image of the case that matches the artifact. That might not be possible, so one would then (also) need some testimony from someone who was there (alive or dead) that describes the case, and matches the artifact. I suppose if you had any connections with a general blues history archivist, that would be a connection to leverage to see if you could get photo's or descriptions from that tour (and so you could authenticate the case yourself). Once the case is ID'ed, then the BEST you could hope for was that you could date the harps to the right period, and confirm that they'd been used (by someone). That's quite literally the best you could hope for in this situation.
But IMO, what you really ought to do in this situation (i.e., for someone like Little Walter), is to call the History Detectives. No joke. A find of this nature should be shared with the world, and who better than the History Detectives for that? They'd contact all the experts they needed to, and would track down the archives. Of course, one would need to OWN the artifact at this point, so I suppose calling the history detectives is a little bit of putting the cart before the horse.
BTW, you know I'm an archaeologist, so I do have some experience in "authenticating" artifacts (although that's not what we focus on, as an academic discipline).
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walterharp
1357 posts
Mar 25, 2014
2:32 PM
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Hey Kudzu "This is an entirely hypothetical question, I should add. No need to get excited! (Yet.)
I have two questions for general discussion:
1) Who would your first call be to? (I'll tell you who my first call was to, after I've seen your suggestions.)"
While you claim this is hypothetical.. you also stated you called someone about it.. so what gives, or did you mean "would be to" :-)
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jnorem
125 posts
Mar 25, 2014
3:20 PM
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A DNA sample would be of no use unless somewhere there's another sample of Walter Jacobs' DNA to compare it to.
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Call me J
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BluesJacketman
114 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:08 PM
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jnoorem just compare it to his daughters dna.
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WinslowYerxa
532 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:18 PM
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Or his sister's DNA - she lives here in the SF Bay area and comes out to blues shows.
The theoretical leather case is not very good as a validation accessory. All the time on eBay you see harmonicas with cases/boxes/pouches that obviously don't match the vintage of the harmonica -sometimes not even the model.
Suppose that someone got a leather pouch after the fact and put the harps in it for convenience, or to display them nicely, etc. (I have a suspicion that Walter might have just carried them in their paper boxes or even in loose in a paper bag (which I once saw Howard Levy doing with about a dozen Filiskos with handmade brass covers).
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Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 25, 2014 4:18 PM
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XHarp
548 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:45 PM
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Hey, LW played MB's so once they were authenticated by a person who could verify the case and date the harps, then with the stated provenance, hit Hohner and offer to donate them to their museum in exchange for a steady supply of new. That would be a nice return while still getting them to a museum for others to enjoy.
Slowly we're getting this to a (shudder) "win-win".
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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kudzurunner
4634 posts
Mar 25, 2014
8:36 PM
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@Walterharp: It's about a real player, somebody on the top-10 list. Not Little Walter, and not somebody living.
My first call was to Pat Missin. His lips are sealed. (So are mine.) He made several excellent suggestions about what moves should come next.
Thanks, everybody, for the extremely useful crowd-sourcing. I'm sure there will be news at some point in the next several months.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 25, 2014 8:37 PM
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BluesJacketman
119 posts
Mar 25, 2014
8:48 PM
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well thanks Adam now I have a guess as to whose harps they are.
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SuperBee
1821 posts
Mar 25, 2014
9:41 PM
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I'll guess Rice Miller.
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nacoran
7658 posts
Mar 26, 2014
9:37 AM
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Okay sleuths, here is the list, cut and pasted; the top 10 (11)
Little Walter (Jacobs)
Big Walter (Horton)
James Cotton
John Lee “Sonny Boy” Williamson (aka, Sonny Boy I)
Rice Miller (aka Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Boy II)
Sonny Terry
Junior Wells
Sugar Blue
Jason Ricci
Paul Butterfield
George “Harmonica” Smith
We can rule out Cotton, Ricci and Sugar Blue based on the 'not somebody living.'
Now, that leaves 8, and Adam says it's not Little Walter, which takes us down to 7. Now we just need to fill out the brackets and start the pool! :)
My guess is Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with a Lead Pipe (lead pipe would make good slang for an old bell brass harp, wouldn't it?)
Another suggestion would be to ask mysterious hypothetical questions on forums.
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Slimharp
262 posts
Mar 26, 2014
9:44 AM
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LOL nacoran. I say Butterfield, Wells,Smith.
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tmf714
2476 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:04 AM
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I own own one of William Clarkes chromatics-I got it from ebay-it had 2 bids,and the guy who won it backed out. I got an e-mail about a week later from Gina,Williams daughter. See offered the harp to me as I was the highest bidder behind the supposed winner.
I got a signed letter of authenticity from Jeannette-Wiiliams widow. That's how its done-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 26, 2014 10:05 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
1200 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:05 AM
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Yeah, I'm gonna guess Butterfield as well, and given my track record in matters of this nature, you should all take it as a "there's one more name I can cross off the list" kind of thing.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Mar 26, 2014 10:05 AM
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tmf714
2477 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:15 AM
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tmf714
2478 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:15 AM
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tmf714
2479 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:16 AM
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tmf714
2480 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:16 AM
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tmf714
2481 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:17 AM
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timeistight
1526 posts
Mar 26, 2014
11:06 AM
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I'll guess Rice Miller, too, based him having family in Mississippi.
What do we win?
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JustFuya
29 posts
Mar 29, 2014
11:02 PM
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I scanned this "hypothetical" thread when it was fresh. I recalled it today when I got curious about my one remaining Marine Band harp; a barely used, ill gapped OTB, key of A with trapezoidal holes.
At some point in my life I got disgusted with the quality of Marine Band harps and switched to Golden Melody on the advice of my Mr. Gadget (a fellow musician who adapts quicker than I do).
Today I wondered when I made that switch. I Googled "how to date a marine band harmonica" and wound up on patmissin.com. I highly recommend this site for people like myself: those who should be practicing but are stuck by their nose in a book. On this website you will find a wealth of unbiased harmonica knowledge. No hoots, no hollers, no in-your-face tip jars.
For the record, I switched to GM in the mid 90s. Thank you for that recollection Mr. Missin.
My Mr. Gadget is now showcasing Lee Oskar and Suzuki harps. I'm pissed at Hohner for putting me through years of grief so I am not going to say which manufacturer I still prefer.
I step in a pile, I deal with it. I steer someone else to the pile I guess I endorse it.
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Frank
4106 posts
Mar 30, 2014
12:41 PM
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Wow, bill got his mileage from that harp - what does the inside look like and how does it play, is it usable?>
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marine1896
90 posts
Apr 23, 2015
1:30 PM
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Was this Sonny Boy II's harps in an old leather case ?
Or what was the conclusion of this???
BTW, this is a steal if you don't got it!
Sonny Boy Williamson Chess Years Red box this usually sells for £60+ I'm not selling it and I already own 2 copies but this is a bargain and really every home should have one!!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sonny-Boy-Williamson-The-Chess-Years-4CD-/171762485450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27fdd788ca
Last Edited by marine1896 on Apr 23, 2015 1:37 PM
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timeistight
1759 posts
Apr 23, 2015
2:53 PM
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"@Walterharp: It's about a real player, somebody on the top-10 list. Not Little Walter, and not somebody living.
My first call was to Pat Missin. His lips are sealed. (So are mine.) He made several excellent suggestions about what moves should come next.
Thanks, everybody, for the extremely useful crowd-sourcing. I'm sure there will be news at some point in the next several months.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 25, 2014 8:37 PM"
It's been almost thirteen months with no news. Did this come to anything?
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 23, 2015 2:54 PM
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kudzurunner
5400 posts
Apr 23, 2015
3:02 PM
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It's funny: When I first reread this thread just now, I couldn't for the life of me remember who actually approached me.
Since I gave the person in question the best advice I could give, for free, about a year ago, and since, after our friendly encounter and her generous gift of a book, I've heard nothing, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't tell the truth now. Perhaps it will stimulate interest in what's for sale. (For the record, I first contacted Pat Missin and then put her in touch with Joe Filisko.)
The person who contacted me was the woman in charge of the Sonny Terry Estate. The estate is in possession of pretty much all the harmonicas Sonny had on hand when he died in the mid-1980s.
To wit, and I quote: "83 boxed Hohners, 130 Hohners not in separate cases, 44 Huang harmonicas, and 1 Yamaha harmonica"
I have no idea what came of all this. Would people like me to find out? Or has news of this already gotten out?
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Apr 23, 2015 3:03 PM
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marine1896
92 posts
Apr 23, 2015
3:10 PM
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Yeah, I would like to know thanks, I love stuff like that!
But I thought of Sonny Boy Because of the AFBF and leather case mention, mind you having said that, if it had been Sonny Boy that would have caused a bit of a big stir in the blues world I reckon, that's not a slight on Sonny Terry though.
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kudzurunner
5401 posts
Apr 23, 2015
3:31 PM
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Right. I was trying to throw you off the scent. Glad it worked!
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sonny3
258 posts
Apr 23, 2015
5:55 PM
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Wow 44 Huangs!I would like to know more.I do wonder what happened to all those harps.I was thinking Sonny went away from Hohner during the 80s.
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Harpaholic
689 posts
Apr 23, 2015
5:59 PM
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To put the proper value on them there has to have been
a similar item sold in the past.
If there isn't, then there's no way to accuratly appraise. It's not like appraising a guitar played by Jimi Hendrix. That's easy, many have sold.
They have more value as a museum or hall of fame piece. Like everything, there worth what someone will pay.
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timeistight
1760 posts
Apr 23, 2015
6:20 PM
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That's really cool! An important find.
We should start a collection to buy them for Joe Filisko.
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