SuperBee
1728 posts
Mar 05, 2014
3:01 AM
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Trying to find my way around the country tuning.
And learning about 4th and. 5th posn
I thought I was anyway...tonight I decided to try a standard r3567653 bass pattern, as I might normally play using 2nd as the tonic, but using 3rd as tonic instead.
You can do this on a CT harp without overblows.
It's kinda cool anyway. I recall someone told me the CT made playing 3rd more like playing second...and so it does...
Really I was just looking for a way to practice the 4th position in a musical context. I haven't really done that much at all. I always think of it as minor but it's actually pretty easy to play as major or as in this case, mixolydian, at least in the middle octave.
Just picking it up this way, 4th was actually the least weird feeling position. 3rd pos with the major 3rd was easy, 2nd requires bending the 5 draw but that seems to come fairly easy..,I dunno...I've always been a little shy of altered tunings from fear of confusion but maybe it actually has the opposite effect of bringing clarity through stimulating the brain...shaking up old patterns
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timeistight
1507 posts
Mar 05, 2014
7:23 AM
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Country tuning shifts all the "natural modes" (i.e., the modes you modes you get when you play a position without bends or overbends) one click clockwise on the circle of fifths, so 1st position becomes Lydian, 2nd: Ionian, 3rd: Mixolydian, 4th: Dorian, 5th: Aeolian and 6th: Phrygian.
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DukeBerryman
201 posts
Mar 05, 2014
7:54 AM
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@timeistight Fascinating - I'm finally getting into modes. I've heard the different positions on the harmonica represent the different modes, so shifting the mode you get in first position by changing the tuning makes sense to me. So, country tuning is really just a move to Lydian mode?
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timeistight
1508 posts
Mar 05, 2014
8:32 AM
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Sebastien Charlier, the great diatonic jazz player, calls it Lydian tuning.
However, Joe Leone and Charlie McCoy, who popularized it in North America, use it primarily to get a major seventh in second position.
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Gnarly
939 posts
Mar 05, 2014
9:34 AM
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@timeistight Joe modified the harmonica to play doo wop!
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barbequebob
2484 posts
Mar 05, 2014
10:10 AM
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Long before Hohner made country tuning a stock production line model in 1985, the only way you made them was to tune the 5 draw 1/2 step sharp, and to those of us, like myself, who did this, always referred to them as Major 7th harps.
What you can do is, when it was originally done, was to allow you to do the kinds of things you'd normally do in 1st position on 2nd position. It's not just great for country music (which obviously uses major 7ths more than blues does), but it also quite useful for jazz, or a more jazzy blues (which uses major 7ths quite a lot), ballads, and most definitely for doowop tunes (I used it in a band that did more than just blues and we did a medley of doowop tunes Oh What A Night by The Dells and Sincerely by The Moonglows and rather than do the usual thing harp players tend to do (which is too often non stop riffing), what I did was play all of vocal harmony parts an occasionaly some of the soft toned guitar parts, which worked perfectly.
I tuned it in 7 limit just intonation and so the 5 draw was also tuned 14 cents flat and when doing double stops and chords to mimic the vocal harmony parts, it played perfectly and warmly.
On occasion, I've done Gene Ammons' Red Top using one where the arrangement I had was the opening 4 choruses was much like what Gene was doing with a jazz swing groove and even playing his famous solo in it note for note and even a verse that included quoting Let's Fall In Love, then going back to the beginning where you hit the line chromatically downward, and once the line was finished, do a more rock & roll/twist groove that Jerry McCain did for several verses, then back to the descending chromatic line, and then back to the jazzy/swing thing for the last three verses.
If you take time to learn it and get used to it, it is a fun tuning to learn and also the easiest alternate harp tuning to learn.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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SuperBee
1729 posts
Mar 05, 2014
11:33 AM
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Yes you can play 2nd with a major 7, 3rd with a major 3rd in middle octave, 4th now has a major 6th and you can get the major 3rd and 7th with bending chamber 4 and 6, 5th is quite versatile too, needs a 4overblow to get the major 7 but the sharp 5 draw provides a 9th with is nice.
If I can get this sorted, there are several singers I can work with...songs like blue skies, don't get around much...I hadn't thought about doowop but that sounds very exciting too...
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1847
1541 posts
Mar 05, 2014
2:39 PM
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jake knows
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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DukeBerryman
204 posts
Mar 05, 2014
8:10 PM
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@SuperBee I was wondering about the song "Someone to Watch Over Me" - would the country tuning be good for that? So I can play in 2nd position? I looked online and it's in the key of E flat major.
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SuperBee
1732 posts
Mar 06, 2014
3:47 AM
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G'day Duke. I had a quick look. Wow, plenty of chords in that song!
Honestly I'd have to make a study of it, I'm not knowledgeable enough to appraise it quickly.
But, you have an Eb chord as the tonic, so you can play that in 2nd on an Ab harp. You have an Ab chord, so that's 1st position, a Cm which is 5th, an F and Fm which is 4th..a Gm which would be 6th, Bb would be 3rd...
I think you could solo over that progression nicely with a CT harp.
The melody I don't know, but it's likely I think. 6th position I haven't really studied much at all yet. And hey, I'm a beginner at this, just trying to teach myself the scales and arpeggios for 4 th and 5th...and I'm by no means done with 1-3 yet .
I think there are a couple other chords in the song also, but I haven't gone that far. And the melody I haven't analysed at all. Give it a go...you'll soon know if the extra note is enough. But effectively that's what CT does, gives you an extra note without OB.
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GamblersHand
492 posts
Mar 06, 2014
8:29 AM
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Playing a song in 2nd position on either a standard or country tuned harp comes down to the 7ths - i.e. do you want the option of a major 7th or not.
I'm no expert, but jazz songs often seem to have both major and flat-sevenths played.
In this case, there seem to be at least two chords which include the major seventh "D"
Gm - G Bb D
Bb - Bb D F
So I'd suggest trying the country tuned harp first.
EDIT: as my first attempt was totally confused
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Mar 06, 2014 11:44 AM
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DukeBerryman
207 posts
Mar 06, 2014
10:31 AM
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Thanks, guys - It's such a pretty song, I want to master it someday. Bucket list. Sounds like I should be checking on the 7th's in a particular song, major or minor.
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GamblersHand
493 posts
Mar 06, 2014
10:55 AM
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@Duke
I find determining whether a major key song uses major/minor (or both) sevenths very challenging. I think it's particularly important for harmonica, as unless you're comfortable with OBs a major seventh means playing in 1st or 12th position
For my usual blues-based repertoire I don't come across songs that need major seventh scale tones that often - the two that come to mind are "My Baby Just Cares" and "Louisiana 1927". Maybe there are others but my ear isn't good enough to detect that I'm out..
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DukeBerryman
208 posts
Mar 06, 2014
11:27 AM
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OK, I think I'm getting this. I have a Lee Oskar Melody Maker in the key of G, which for Meody Makers is the 2nd position key. The original Randy Newman "Louisana 1927" is in G major (according to Wikipedia). My Melody Maker has a F# for the 5 hole draw - so that's the 7th note I need for the song?
I should be able to jam along to the song... I should just try it.
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SuperBee
1733 posts
Mar 06, 2014
11:47 AM
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The iii chord would be 6th position. Root note is 3 draw. So 4 draw would be the minor 3rd I think. CT would give you the 5th I think. Standard richter would not give you that, you would need 5OB. Your minor 6th would be 6 blow, flat 7th in 6draw.
So yes I think you can get your minor iii on CT better than standard.
Also you have both F and Fm in this tune, the II and ii. 4th position. On standard richter it's easy to get the minor, but country tuning allows you to play major also...however that is all about the 6th, which you may not care to play anyway.
There are a couple other chords though, maybe in the B part of the song, which I haven't examined...
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DukeBerryman
209 posts
Mar 06, 2014
11:58 AM
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Sounds cool - check out this sample. Thanks for the help guys! Maybe in the future, I'll be able to identify these songs that require major seventh scale tones:
Lee Oskar Melody Maker from Duke Berryman on Vimeo.
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SuperBee
1734 posts
Mar 06, 2014
2:27 PM
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Yeah there are some really nice passages in that DB. Also a couple of places you throw out some notes which don't really work for me. But I think with a little work you've got something good happening there.
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DukeBerryman
211 posts
Mar 06, 2014
2:45 PM
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@SuperBee Thanks - the Melody Maker is all over the place, and there's even more you can do with bent notes. But I'd like to use it for this mode and major seventh scale tones. Just got to get the scale right! Thanks again for the help - finally going to put this harp to work. By the way, it's engraved by Lee Oskar! Bought it at a seminar he hosted at Guitar Center.
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MN
338 posts
Sep 03, 2014
8:08 AM
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Anyone know where you can buy country-tuned reed plates for a Special 20?
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