MindTheGap
292 posts
Feb 25, 2014
12:56 AM
|
Since I started I've been using a throat-type 'vibrato', but it's always been more of a tremolo with not much change in pitch. That's ok, but I've always coveted that rich, deep, rolling vibrato I hear from some blues players - esp. when they hang on a long single note and bring in that violin-style vibrato. Like Ray Manzarek switching in his rotary speaker during the intro of 'The Changeling' - if you know what I mean?
See my other post on 'My first Jam Notes' where certain people were doing that through a bassman on the 2D,3D, 4D and it sounded fantastic.
Well today I've made a bit of a breakthrough, and I can do a rudimentary version of that for the first time. What has changed is that I've been TB-ing the low bends. Whatever anyone says about your tongue doing the same thing LB or TB, what it *feels* like to me is that you are grabbing the note from the back of the throat. So when I do my throat 'vibrato' thing, TB, it's varying the pitch too. It's all a case of wobbling the right bits.
It's a bit delicate atm, and I lose the 'grip' under stress. But that's what it was like learning to bend, and that became solid with practice. So I'm hopeful.
----------
MTG
|
LumberjackShark
32 posts
Feb 25, 2014
1:16 PM
|
What is the difference is vibrato and tremolo? My teacher has me working on my vibrato, which I had none at all!! I have to work on it and it is more difficult for me on bends. It is getting easier though.
|
Mirco
117 posts
Feb 25, 2014
3:09 PM
|
I still don't know the difference. I guess learning to hear the difference would be the first step to playing it.
|
BluesJacketman
83 posts
Feb 25, 2014
3:57 PM
|
Hey guys heres the definitions for you:
Vibrato is a rapid fluctuation in pitch between 2 notes.
Tremolo is a rapid fluctuation in volume.
There are multiple ways to approach and achieve both techniques. What Mindthegap is describing is bending the note and unbending rapidly which is a form of vibrato.
|
WinslowYerxa
503 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:02 AM
|
Vibrato is anything that puts an undulation in a sustained tone. That's been true for the last 300 years. Only in the last few decades have harmonica players insisted that one thing is vibrato and another is tremolo, possibly influenced by the existence of a "tremolo" knob on guitar amplifiers.
There are three elements that a harmonica player can manipulate to create an undulation through changes between two states, and these three elements can be combined.
Element 1) make the pitch change and then change back
Element 2) make the tone color change and then change back
Element 3) make the volume change and then change back.
Some harmonica players insist that Element 1 is vibrato and that Element 3 is tremolo.
I think that there's a better and more comprehensive way to think about vibrato because most methods of producing vibrato will combine two of the three elements.
Using your diaphragm makes changes in volume only.
Using your larynx and maybe some associated throat muscles changes both pitch and volume, though it's possible to cultivate a throat vibrato that changes only the intensity.
Using your tongue changes both pitch and tone color.
Using your hands cupped around the harp changes both tone color and volume.
----------
Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 26, 2014 12:04 AM
|
MindTheGap
294 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:30 AM
|
BluesJacketman and Winslow - Thank you for the definitions.
Very useful to know what each thing can do - I didn't know that using the diaphragm (which I've not tried) only changes the volume.
For some reason my 'throat vibrato' used only to change the volume, but I wanted it to change the pitch too as I've heard others do. And now it does (both), so I'm pleased. I tried out my new toy last night at a session - long sustained notes - and liked it a lot.
Am I right in thinking then that the same throat vibrato applied to a low blow note only changes the volume, as there is no bend available?
----------
MTG
|
slackwater
2 posts
Feb 26, 2014
1:29 AM
|
A few years back a guitarist friend of mine was telling me that I had the definitions of tremolo and vibrato around the wrong way so I got out my copy of The Concise Oxford English Dictionary, there wasn't any googlewiky back then. In it the definitions for each were identical! I've never bothered to check digitally lately..maybe I will in a minute.
Incidentally, I have an amp called a Verbovibe, get that, Verbo-VIBE. Yet the text on both the "Special Instructions" sheet and the manufacturers website refers to "The true grid tremolo...".
The control panel on the amp just has knobs marked Depth and Speed.
But yeah,I do a shakey thing and a wobbly thing (which my Missus calls "that sexy toungue thing")when I play, but I'm not real sure what they're properly called.
Last Edited by slackwater on Feb 26, 2014 1:29 AM
|
MindTheGap
295 posts
Feb 26, 2014
1:43 AM
|
slackwater - yes, seems the words are used interchangeably. I guess I've used 'vibrato' to mean change in pitch+volume and 'tremolo' change in volume alone, but then the 'tremolo' arm on a guitar does pitch, and your Verovibe does volume.
As long as *we* know what we mean!
And I guess 'vibrato' varies from instrument to instrument - guitar:generally pitch, amp:volume, violin pitch(?), a rotary speaker like in the Doors song: both. Singing voice: both.
Anyway, I wanted the one with both. It doesn't work all that well on an already bent 3' - that comes out more stuttery, so need to find out how to make that go.
----------
MTG
|
WinslowYerxa
504 posts
Feb 26, 2014
10:21 AM
|
Throat vibrato on so-called non-bendable notes won't usually change the pitch. However, "non-bendable notes" will depress slightly in pitch. Some players use tongue vibrato to create enough of a pitch variation on these notes to add that element to vibrato. Hmm. makes me curious how much I can do with throat alone to create pitch changes on the "non-bendable" notes.
----------
Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
|
isaacullah
2647 posts
Feb 26, 2014
11:33 AM
|
I actually believe that are two kinds of "tongue" vibrato. One from the back of the tongue (e.g., by saying "you, you, you, you" very quickly), and another from the front of the tongue (e.g., by saying "lu, lu, lu, lu" very quickly. IMO, the "back of tongue" vibrato is more effective at changing the pitch (but also changes volume, slightly). I've heard both used, and I personally prefer the "back of tongue" variety (it's what the late great Chris Michalek showed me he did).
That all being said, I mainly use throat vibrato (e.g., saying "uh, uh, uh, uh, uh" from the throat), which, for me, changes pitch and volume in equal amounts.
PS., when I use the term "saying", I mean "shaping those sounds", but not actually voicing them.
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
|
MindTheGap
296 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:34 PM
|
isaacullah - Interesting. I found that the throat vibrato works nicely for me for the unbent draw note giving a nice singing sort of tone. But when I use it on the bent notes it is more of a stutter.
I looked back at one of Lee Sankey's videos and he says the same thing actually - and he then shows his 'opening/closing the mouth' technique to get a singing tone on the bent notes.
But when I try that it doesn't change the pitch at all, and your back-of-the-tongue 'yu yu yu' seems more promising. At the moment it's more of a slow thing, I'm hoping that repetition will turn it into a smooth vibrato.
Or one of my family might strangle me first. It's a race against time.
----------
MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 26, 2014 12:35 PM
|
Littoral
1041 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:51 PM
|
MindTheGap "What has changed is that I've been TB-ing the low bends."
I've been working hard on this lately as well. My original intention was to learn to TB some phrases that I've always played LP because they were too difficult for me to accomplish TB. I've made a lot of progress and some unexpected results are that I am hearing my vibrato gain control as well as my ability to hold bends exactly where I want them is better. With LP I find it challenging to hold some bends exactly (exactly) on pitch for more than 4-5 seconds. There other "tone" things that seem to be enhanced as well.
*I am from the TB fanatic/nazi club
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 26, 2014 12:53 PM
|
isaacullah
2649 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:52 PM
|
Vibrato technique and bending technique are (and should be) interconnected. There is more than one way to skin a cat, just as there is more than one way to bend a note. If you bend from down low in the mouth/throat, then pitch variation from throat vibrato comes naturally. If you bend from further up in the mouth (e.g., with the front part of the tongue, using the "k spot" method), then pitch variation from throat vibrato will be more difficult. In that case, you might find tongue vibrato to work better for you.
Actually, I think the "back of tongue" vibrato is a technique that could be easily picked up regardless of whether you are a "throat bender" or a "tongue bender" as it's sort of in between the two!
And yes, repetition is what it takes to get it smooth... It took me nearly a year before I got it smoothed out, and the smoothness really came unconsciously. Once you've got it though, it's a really wonderful thing! Hopefully it comes before your strangling!
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
|
isaacullah
2650 posts
Feb 26, 2014
12:58 PM
|
Oh, and try doing the "back of tongue" "yu, yu, yu, yu"
vibrato on BLOW notes! I think you'll notice a dramitc difference from throat vibrato. Getting true pitch variation on BLOW vibrato is very difficult (for me, anyway) with throat vibrato, but comes pretty easily with "back of tongue" vibrato.
----------
YouTube! Soundcloud!
|
MindTheGap
299 posts
Feb 26, 2014
1:00 PM
|
Ah good. I don't mind it taking a year - I really want this thing. But I don't want to spend a year learning the wrong thing, only to find...
But I think the back of throat vibrato bend feels right.
I'm listening to Adam's 'Sanctified Blues 1' right now, where in passing he plays a lovely 3' vibrato. His B.B. King Vibrato, he calls it.
----------
MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 26, 2014 1:02 PM
|
The Iceman
1491 posts
Feb 27, 2014
6:56 AM
|
A good representation of tremolo is the way Donovan would sing...especially his version of Lalena.
----------
The Iceman
|
MindTheGap
302 posts
Feb 27, 2014
10:07 AM
|
Yes, that's what I'd call tremolo too. Reading some definitions I get the impression that 'vibrato' is used to describe any modulation including pitch, volume and timbre in whatever proportions. And tremolo is specifically volume. With violin, tremolo is a fast repeated note, so it's that effect.
But actually I don't care about the terms so much, aside from naming the parts. I like Winslow's breakdown.
Here is Lee Sankey's video, he is equally specific about naming the different effects he gets.
----------
MTG
|
