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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Hijacking of the blues
Hijacking of the blues
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atty1chgo
820 posts
Feb 03, 2014
5:50 AM
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I started a new thread because I don't want to interrupt Greg Heumann's post about "Bad Brad and The Fat Cats".
Is this what black blues artists talk about when they are saying that white artists have hijacked or stolen blues music?
Will this artist be promoted before a black act?
What level of that has to do with lack of promotion, and what level has to do with promoter racism?
As for promotion, I see Buddy Guy tour with Jonny Lang (white), but not Ronnie Baker Brooks (black), even though Jonny Lang is nowhere near the guitar player that Ronnie is.
Note: Both Ronnie Baker Brooks and Jamiah On Fire and the Red Machine are Chicago artists, well known to Mr. Guy.
Personally, I don't care to hear a bunch of fat white guys play rehashed black blues. Just my humble opinion. They are boring as shit. Especially those guys below.
I'd rather listen to the band posted below them. Oh, and Buddy touts Quinn Sullivan, the great white hope kid guitar slinger, but not the lead guitar in Jamiah On Fire.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Feb 03, 2014 9:31 AM
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Slimharp
164 posts
Feb 03, 2014
7:16 AM
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" Do you use your instrument to play the blues - or do you use the blues to play your instrument ?" - James Harman.
IMHO Playing rote licks makes me want to puke, whatever your color is. You either feel it or not. If you cant tell the difference you cant tell the difference.
Promotion is all about bucks, not talent. Sometimes they go together, sometimes not. Never the less, at least half the audience cant tell the difference between rote and real, but they pay. The bottom line is not white or black, skinny or fat, its the $$$$ at the end of the night. Sorry to say but true.
Last Edited by Slimharp on Feb 03, 2014 7:17 AM
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dougharps
537 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:00 AM
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I would have greatly appreciated a post from you offering an introduction to the music of "Jamiah On Fire & the Red Machine" that showcased their strong music and encouraged others to support this talented young group of developing musicians. Obviously they are young and just beginning to appear on the music scene. I hope they are a great success. It will not be an easy road.
Music is a bit like sports: a lot of talented young players play and develop their abilities, and a few make it to the big time. Many great players don't make it. Even those that make it may have a limited career. Most just get by. I know a number of very talented musicians that were up and coming, and now work hard just to live.
I wish you could have introduced this band without putting other musicians down.
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Doug S.
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atty1chgo
821 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:25 AM
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Won't apologize for that, dougharps. They aren't very good at all, and I would not pay to see them. I rarely if ever criticize musicians on this forum, but I fail to see the enthusiasm for Bad Brad and The Fat Cats, which is why I did not make comments on Greg Heumann's post. But it was done to highlight the subject of the post, previously discussed on other posts, which is that white acts, even if they are subpar, get promoted before black acts. I am sorry if your sensibilities were offended.
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kudzurunner
4535 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:35 AM
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Jim Allchin and (duh!) Joe Bonamassa can play circles around Ronnie Baker Brooks. Bonamassa is famous and Allchin isn't. Brooks is...somewhere in the middle. What's the point? I'm missing the point. But atty, I think you're spoiling for a fight and going about it unwisely, asking us to generalize about large cultural issues from much too small a sample. Tendentious argumentation. You're pushing the evidence too hard.
Some white players are terribly derivative--and I'm not necessarily speaking about the players in your video, I'm just making a point I've made many times before. But some white players (Allchin and Bonamassa, for example) aren't derivative; they're real, contemporary, and innovative. It's a mistake to tar--or whitewash them--all with the same brush.
Johnny Lang is a terrific singer, IMHOP. It took him a while to get there, and he wasn't a great singer when Bob Vorel first told the world to take notice of him back in the late 1990s (I believe it was). But he's gotten there. He's no longer derivative, if indeed he ever was; nor is he entirely unworthy of the hype that surrounds him.
White audiences, too, have a range of tastes. Some white blues fans prefer white artists, often rocked-out ones. Some white blues fans attempt to distinguish themselves subculturally by making a fetish of black, all black, only black, blues players. I know a few people like that. Perhaps you do, too. And some white blues fans like both black and white players, as long as they play traditional stuff, but mock players, white and black, when they try to innovate. I know people like that, too.
A few of us, perhaps more than a few, do our best to be both color-blind and even-handed; we're open to a range of sounds by players of all colors and all aesthetic orientations, from traditional through modern, and we're continually prepared to be surprised--as I was surprised on hearing Jim Allchin for the first time on Bluesville. I've see his ads. He looks like a preppie tree-hugger. But the man can play, and sing. He does the blues credit.
I'm always hearing blues that I don't particularly like on Bluesville. Often it is white artists who sing in a voice that sounds as though they're imitating what they imagine a black blues voice to sound like, or what they remember their black mentor to have sounded like. It sounds put on, rather than real. Sometimes it's black female blues artists with fairly good reputations who just can't sing--can't phrase, can't stay in pitch, strain too hard. Sometimes it's white blues singers like E. G. Knight, who can break your heart with the quality of her voice. Sometimes it's terrific black female singers like Shemekia Copeland, singing lyrics penned by a white advertising executive (and he happens to be a friend of mine).
Race plays a role, multiple roles, in the blues, including the contemporary blues scene, but the subject is one that doesn't respond well to oversimplifications--although such oversimplifications are tempting and are frequently indulged in.
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Slimharp
168 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:51 AM
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atty : Besides the bigger names, I dont see many black stright ahead blues bands. I see a lot of soul-funk-rap type black bands. I live in So. Cal. and get around some. Maybe it's different in the east. I see and have played in a lot of mixed race bands out here. I played for several years at a club called Babes & Ricky's in L.A. a black owned club in a black area frequented heavily by a white audience and players. I didnt see much distinction of color. You could either play and have the blues or you didnt. I never heard or saw anything related to hijacking going on. When you got up to play the color game stopped.
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LSC
586 posts
Feb 03, 2014
10:22 AM
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RE: OP - To suggest that Jonny Lang is hired to opem above other players who are "better" guitarists or performers because of race is a very blind statement. The fact of the matter is Jonny Lang will sell more tickets than all the artists mentioned combined. The promoter is in business to make money. They will put together a bill which will be most attractive to the public and have the best chance of selling the most tickets. Almost any other factor is irrelevant and certainly race has got sod all to do with it.
Does promotion have a race element? Most likely it does, again in the context of what will sell. Does promotion have an age bias? Way more often than not. Young folks go out more often and spend more money than old guys. Generally speaking they are attracted to upcoming artists that they can relate to i.e. younger. So are promoters ageist? In this context, yes and it makes sense for them to be so. As has been pointed out by others, how good some one is, which is always subjective in any event, is far from the major determining factor in commercial success. If being a great player were the only criteria some members of this forum would have platinum records on the walls of their beach front property.
"Personally, I don't care to hear a bunch of fat white guys play rehashed black blues." So you dismiss: Charlie Musslewhite, Paul Butterfield, Kim Wilson, Jerry Portnoy, Paul Oscher? And those are just the harp players, all of which were hired by iconic black blues artists well known for not taking on crap and who stuck their necks out in integrating their bands. They didn't give a shit about race if the guy could play. Neither should anyone else.
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LSC
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Feb 03, 2014 10:28 AM
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Slimharp
170 posts
Feb 03, 2014
10:44 AM
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LSC - Ya think Muddy knew what he was doing ? I had the opportunity to hang out with Muddy for a while and asked him what he thought about the newer bands ( this was in 1977 ) doing his songs. I thought he might say it wasnt pure blues or not done right. He said with a big smile " It's fine with me, I get royalties ". At the time he had Portnoy on harp.
Last Edited by Slimharp on Feb 03, 2014 10:45 AM
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Kingley
3438 posts
Feb 03, 2014
11:14 AM
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atty1chgo - It seems to me that your issue is more with the colour of someones skin than the music. I could be way off the mark here, but I suspect that you think blues should only be played by black African Americans. Would I be right?
Personally I don't have any issue with anyone playing blues as long as they do it well. I couldn't care less if Buddy Guy or some other artist is touring with a white, black, brown or yellow artist. All I care about is that the music sounds good. As for "promoter racism" I just don't see it. Promoters book bands and artists by the number of tickets they will sell, not the colour of their skin. So for example if they book Johnny Lang or Anna Popovich then they know they will sell tickets. If they book a young relatively unknown band then they know that people won't buy tickets. Those bands have to serve their time and do support slots, etc and work their way up the ladder unit they reach a point where they are known to wider audiences. Once they are there then they will get the bookings because the promoters know they will sell tickets. If you look at artists like Billy Branch, Buddy Guy, BB King and Keb Mo, they all regularly get booked by promoters. Why? because they know they will sell tickets and make money. At the end of the day it's all about making money for promoters. I spoke about this today to a friend of mine who is a promoter and he just books bands that sell. He couldn't give a fig if they have talent, the colour of their skin, their sexual preferences or anything else. It's all about his profit margin.
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kudzurunner
4536 posts
Feb 03, 2014
1:23 PM
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And something else needs to be said here, something that has probably never been said on this forum.
When most black folks who actually LISTEN to and purchase blues use the term "blues" these days, they aren't thinking about any of the players we talk about here, including guitarists. Maybe BB King and Bobby Blue Bland sneak in there, along with a little Jimmy Reed, and of course Bobby Rush but basically they mean soul-blues. Except they call it blues. It's blues to them. Johnny Taylor, Marvin Sease, Sir Charles Jones, TK Soul, Ms. Jody, and dozens of other artists. That's what contemporary black folks call blues. Are you going to tell them they're wrong? If you even think about doing that, I suggest that you're wrong, not them.
Black promoters put on blues shows featuring those artists. They call them "blues shows" right on the posters. Not soul-blues. Blues. Hundreds, sometimes thousands, of black fans attend them. And you will never, ever, EVER find a white performer in the lineup.
Is that racism, or reverse racism? No. It's a result of two things: 1) white artists either don't want to perform that variety of blues, or they don't have the ability to perform it in a way that interests and moves the audience. Connection with the audience is important. And 2) black promoters, like white promoters (and all other promoters), are trying to make money. They're trying to find a lineup that will sell tickets, send people home happy, and make a profit. Period. If a white artist came along who actually had the power to pull black listeners to that sort of blues show, I have no doubt that the promoters would put that dude on the show.
I notice that Corey Harris, Alvin Youngblood Hart, and Guy Davis are out on a little tour called "True Blues." If you think you hear a political edge in that phrase, you're correct. They are being explicitly racial. But here's the rub: their audience will be 95% white. And there's a certain paradox in the political complaint implicit in the phrase "true blues": The TRUEST blues, if you want to go that way, is the stuff black folks are actually paying good money to go and party to. The stuff that doesn't HAVE to insist that it's "true blues," because it just is.
To the extent that money and promoter interest flows towards white artists--and I'm not really sure this is true; it's true in some case, but it's not universally true--I'm sure it's strongly inflected by 1) the promoter's specific aesthetic tastes (Michael Cloeren books 95% black acts for the Pocono Blues Festival); and 2) some working sense of what the audience wants and what will sell tickets.
I'm all in favor of affirmative action, taking the extra step to make sure that you've got a big, inclusive pool of talent from which to draw, and I've practiced that in picking the roster for HCH. But there's something pitiful, frankly, about black blues artists engaging in racial head-counts--as Chicago blues artists did several years ago--as a way of proving that it's somehow unfair, even racist, that blues festivals have more white than black blues artists. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHICH BLUES FESTIVALS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. And the black-run, black-staffed, black-attended festivals are always left out of the equation. Because to include them would complicate the picture too much.
It is awkward to acknowledge that the contemporary integrated blues scene has a mass white audience, not much of a black audience, and is controlled in many respects by folks who look like the audience. Black artists who choose to participate in that organized and administered blues world--including the International Blues Challenge--will inevitably feel as though white attentions are fickle, unstable, perpetually in doubt, unless your name is Buddy Guy, Taj Mahal, or B. B. King. Or Keb' Mo'. Such artits always theoretically have the option of turning their professional attentions towards the black blues audience--the soul-blues audience--and trying to make a go there. But they never do. A very few artists....
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Feb 03, 2014 1:39 PM
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kudzurunner
4537 posts
Feb 03, 2014
1:44 PM
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...from that world, on the other hand, cross over to the mass blues audience: Bobby Rush, Bettye Lavette, one or two others. When you do that, you've gotta take what comes.
The contemporary mainstream blues world is controlled by whites, among other reasons, because black audiences fled the music during the 1960s and younger black artists, many of them, turned their ambitions towards soul music.
Our blues worlds are filled with paradoxes. I can guarantee you, though, that even the greatest contemporary white blues artists would have almost no chance getting on what passes for a blues show--a black blues show--here in Mississippi. Tad Robinson? I'd like to think so, because he's the closest of any I know to that style, but he's got zero name with that audience. Joe Bonamassa? LOL. Eric Clapton? I don't think so. Michael McDonald? Now you're getting warmer. He's a blue-eyed soul man who gets some respect with black audiences, and he's got a name.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Feb 03, 2014 1:50 PM
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JInx
723 posts
Feb 03, 2014
2:11 PM
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"personally, I don't care to hear a bunch of fat white guys play rehashed black blues. Just my humble opinion. They are boring as shit. Especially those guys below."-atty1chgo
Thanks for sharing!
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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atty1chgo
822 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:30 PM
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@ LSC -
""Personally, I don't care to hear a bunch of fat white guys play rehashed black blues." So you dismiss: Charlie Musslewhite, Paul Butterfield, Kim Wilson, Jerry Portnoy, Paul Oscher? And those are just the harp players, all of which were hired by iconic black blues artists well known for not taking on crap and who stuck their necks out in integrating their bands. They didn't give a shit about race if the guy could play. Neither should anyone else."
- What on earth would make you think I would dismiss the list above? Besides, only Kim Wilson is a little on the chubby side. :)
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atty1chgo
823 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:37 PM
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I guess the points that I am trying to make are that:
1. It's too bad that talented black blues artists have to take a back seat to promoters who book on race.
2. It is unfortunate that even black blues heavyweights such as Buddy Guy seem to favor white artists in their promotion (at least in the two instances I pointed out);
3. That subpar white bands such as the one that I posted a video of will get promoted, at some point, because of race, ahead of a black artist.
That's about it. I like to hear the music as good as it can be played. I guess what burned me is people thinking that the "Fat Cats" had talent. It was just my opinion that they do not.
I wasn't trying to compare Ronnie Baker Brooks with anyone but Jonny Lang (don't know where a comparison of Joe Bonamassa and RBB fits in anywhere) FOR THE PURPOSES of indicating what Buddy Guy does in the way of promotion, as a superstar black blues musician. I understand what kudzurunner is stating in all of his posts here, and I agree with him. It's just when I see a musician with the stature of Buddy Guy consistently favor white artists to tour with, it is a sad state of affairs indeed.
"He couldn't give a fig if they have talent, the colour of their skin, their sexual preferences or anything else. It's all about his profit margin."
-- Well that too bad. Talent should count for something.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Feb 03, 2014 5:26 PM
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jnorem
20 posts
Feb 03, 2014
6:03 PM
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When I lived in England I played in a blues band, and these guys were great; they'd really absorbed the Chicago-style and sort of "Englishized" it. It was one of the best bands I ever played in, and we got loads of gigs.
Seriously, I was surprised as hell. There was a producer in London who was making a recording of a singer he'd found, and I was recruited to play the harmonica parts. We recorded in Jules Holland's studio, the smallest studio
I've ever seen. The producer had us practice over and over the riff from "Walking By Myself: until you couldn't tell the difference between us and the record. You should have heard this singer, it was scary. He could sing like Muddy Waters.
I like the Chicago blues style. I thought that William Clark was in that vein. Carey Bell was, too. But a lot of the band these days, they're playing a more jump blues style it seems.
I know how it is to see a "blues band" and it's really just a rock band that plays blues songs. There's always a hot guitar player.
And the same damn songs, mercy! Everybody plays those tunes, guys.
Blues is being played in all kinds of different ways. I think eventually we're going to see an innovative Tom Waits kind of poet who uses this, his chosen vehicle, to express himself with a a good band, The sound of Chicago is not dead, nor is it old hat. It's a launching pad.
In there meantime, really good solid blues music is hard to find. But it's there, it's out there, and race has nothing to do with it.
Now, here is en example of what I consider to be blues perfection. The harmonica solo that starts at 1:32, is absolute perfection. Listen to what Walter is playing, ad listen to the Louis Meyers is which him every step of the way. That's the sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dxX50KfHcE
Last Edited by jnorem on Feb 03, 2014 6:23 PM
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1847
1490 posts
Feb 03, 2014
6:39 PM
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I guess what burned me is people thinking that the "Fat Cats" had talent. It was just my opinion that they do not.
at least they are out playing music
having a good time
you on the other hand, instead of practicing your harmonica
you're on the internet wasting your time complaining
why don't you show us how it's supposed to be played?
if you would of used the paul butterfield performance
for your rant i would of, agreed with you.
that was a fine example, of the thought you were trying to convey.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Feb 03, 2014 6:43 PM
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LSC
588 posts
Feb 03, 2014
6:47 PM
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@atty "What on earth would make you think I would dismiss the list above?"
The entire tone and substance of your post.
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LSC
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jnorem
21 posts
Feb 03, 2014
8:10 PM
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Just because we play the harmonica, that doesn't mean that we are supposed to like and support anything that any other harmonica player puts out. It's a bit silly, isn't is?
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jnorem
22 posts
Feb 03, 2014
8:15 PM
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I just wanted to add that I don't like any of the music in those videos.
How predictable. What a bore.
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Kingley
3440 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:05 PM
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"1. It's too bad that talented black blues artists have to take a back seat to promoters who book on race."
Promoters don't book on race. They book on what sells tickets to their target audience. It's all about making money and has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
"2. It is unfortunate that even black blues heavyweights such as Buddy Guy seem to favor white artists in their promotion (at least in the two instances I pointed out);"
You can hardly make a judgement on what Buddy Guy does or doesn't do, based on two instances. Over the many decades he has been in the business, Buddy has promoted hundreds of artists of all colours and sexes. Another thing you also have not thought about is that more often than not the support acts and backing bands for an artist of Buddy's stature are not selected by him. They are usually selected by either the management or in in the case of regional performances the promoters. Most backing bands are given a bunch of material to learn and then just turn up and do the gigs. On occasion Buddy may specify that he wants a particular person, but for the most part he just goes with the flow. If the young band are supporting then it's customary for an artist to promote that band onstage and to invite them on for a sit in spot. That's just the protocol of the business and really has nothing to do with an individual artists view of the supporting act. Again it's all about business.
"3. That subpar white bands such as the one that I posted a video of will get promoted, at some point, because of race, ahead of a black artist."
Simply not true. Again I repeat promoters only book what sells for whatever they are promoting, they do not book on colour. The only person I have ever heard promoting those young men you mention is Rick Davis on here, simply because he believes in them.
You seem determined to see this whole thing as a colour issue and it's not. It's a business issue. It's about making money. For example the promoters Adam referred to that only book black artists, is because that is what they know their audience will buy tickets for. It has nothing to do with race. Making money is the first and foremost thought on any promoters mind. The only colour they are interested in is green. So if you want to blame someone for young black artists not getting the recognition that you perceive they deserve, you should be blaming the audiences and not the promoters, as they are the ones buying the tickets. Alternatively, you could open your own booking agency and get promoting these artists yourself.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 03, 2014 9:51 PM
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SuperBee
1658 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:39 AM
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im going to see buddy guy later this year. its true he is gonna be playing with a guy who is at least partly white...mussel-white...and an outfit called the james cotton blues band...i got no idea what the racial make up of that band is. i reckon though...if a person sees a problem, they're right. it might be just their problem though
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jbone
1487 posts
Feb 04, 2014
4:00 AM
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As a slightly overweight white guy approaching age 59, who has put a lot into the music over some years now, I wanted to ring in. I am not needlessly bragging when I say my wife and I can command attention from a stage, and with no limits on what color the audience happens to be. It has happened several times in my couple of decades of playing as an avocation. I'm a struggling working class poor guy who needs a day job to survive. By night I have been a hopeful member and sometimes leader of a band or duo that got out and hustled gigs, worked to define a solid sound, wrote and developed original material, took stages everywhere we could, and tried to play the game.
Did a promoter ever latch on to me? For a very brief period, yes. Long enough to sour me on the idea of an honest promoter. On a very local level and with the result of everyone but me getting paid. I know that's not always the case, and somehow I participated in my undoing on a bigger scale than local player.
It's a very cold business since it's founded on peoples' dreams and hopes and it gets boiled down to what an audience will spend cash on and buy drinks to sit and listen to.
We had a cd go to Memphis a few years ago and place between #30 and #6 world wide. Not a bad result for a real grass roots effort. Nobody can take that away from us, but a few years on, the lasting result has been that the local "blues community" which term I use loosely, has pretty well snubbed us and blown us off. Consequently, we made a big change in the past year or two. We decided that no matter what, we are continuing in our musical endeavor, we are going forward anyway, and we are not participating in the petty and self serving games of local music politics. We are doing music primarily because we love doing it. We refuse to be put down or shut off. If this means we don't see any support from promoters or our local peers, so be it. If it means we don't get on a tour opening for Buddy Guy or someone, well, we are not hurt by that.
We boiled our dream down to its essence. We are going to hit the road in a few years, be roots and blues gypsies, and play until we can't any more. Every place we go, every cafe or dive or farmers market we see, we will see what we can do there. Because we love the music.
We adopted a motto a few years back as well: Raw, real, right now. Meaning, whatever polish we bring when we sit down and turn on is all the polish we need or want. No studio fix. Our next project will include tracks from friends across the country, one take yes or no solos on original work.
In effect we are outside the normal channels and we are not playing quite the same game. Do we notice skin tone? Nope. Do we have the experience of blues in our own lives? Yes. Can we communicate the feeling in our material? Resounding yes.
Jolene and I have each other no matter what. We have a skill set and a product that works not just for us but for any establishment that will look past gray hair and put us on a stage for a few bucks.
What else do we really need?
This topic comes up every year or two and there's never a pat answer. There are lots of opinions and experiences, all with their own validity. I speak from my own experience and realize it is different from some others'.
At the end of the day, I try and ask myself: Did I add or subtract from the body of love and happiness in this world? The hard part is answering that honestly.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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atty1chgo
825 posts
Feb 04, 2014
5:42 AM
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@ LSC
Too bad.
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atty1chgo
826 posts
Feb 04, 2014
5:46 AM
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"I just wanted to add that I don't like any of the music in those videos.
How predictable. What a bore."
- Stick to classical music then.
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LSC
590 posts
Feb 04, 2014
6:43 AM
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@aaty - "@ LSC Too bad."
If you don't like the answer don't ask the question.
BTW, I play as a sideman with a black artist. I also do all the promotion for him. Depending on who's available the band is either mixed race or sometimes not. The subject of race has never come up. It's about 1) who best fits as a player and 2) who is available. Period.
I get the distinct impression you enjoy stirring things up. I for one won't play that game and will not contribute further.
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Feb 04, 2014 6:46 AM
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Slimharp
177 posts
Feb 04, 2014
9:11 AM
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Outside of the big names, I dont see 100% black blues bands anymore, like I see mostly mixed or white blues bands.
Outside of the black musicians I play with or see doing gigs around here I dont see blacks into blues.
Of all my non musician black friends and associations in my life, I have NEVER known one to be into the blues. Soul blues as Adam mentioned yes, but not the blues. Adam mentioned something like " when the blacks ran from the blues in the sixties " seems true. It's as if the blues is an old style, outdated or something. Like maybe us listening to beatnick or folk music from the late fifties and sixties.
If it were not for predominantly white audiences, the blues would be near extinct. And you wonder why we have white people playing the blues.
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chromaticblues
1539 posts
Feb 04, 2014
9:27 AM
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Some of this crap thread is true, but that is the way it is and not one of us can undue what has been done.
Oh and by the way Buddy Guy is a very smart man.
The music biz in NOT all about talent (in the US).
If people can't money off of you than you become obsoete!
Every situation is going to be different.
There is racism and reverse racism and people like me that don't give a shit about either one of those things. I've been stuck in situation where I've experienced both sides of racism and didn't like either side much at all!
Nothing positive can come from this!
Lock it down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MP
3088 posts
Feb 04, 2014
11:30 AM
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A harp player/singer/band leader whom happens to be black {jimmy} made the same accusation re-Buddy Guy favoring white players. Not only that. White fans too as he was ignored though he was in front of a white dude w/ a polka dot Strat to get an autograph. He also feels Oprah has gone whitey.
I gave Jimmy harp lessons and vocal lessons. He is not racist but he will call 'em as he sees 'em.
I personally have no opinion on the matter other than money talks. Also I've seen black blues artist Travis 'Moon Child' Haddix. He charts on black blues music polls by and for blacks.
I wouldn't know about what artists black blues fans listen to if it weren't for our host Mr. Gussow.
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Hondo
273 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:01 PM
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Her name is E. G. Kight, not Knight, and her mentor, in Blues, was her close friend Koko Taylor. But E. G. doesn't try to sound like her or imitate anything.
Nic is a far better player than I am but the front man and the guy to his left doing that side to side step thing was either sad or hilarious. They need to watch more stuff from soul groups or stop that s***.
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Rick Davis
2935 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:23 PM
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Wow, how did I miss this thread? ;-)
atty1chgo, nobody owns the blues and nobody has hijacked it. And pontificating on what is and is not real blues is a perilous undertaking. It is a waste of time.
Bad Brad & The Fat Cats made it to the finals at the IBC, which is a pretty big deal. There are others here in this forum who have made it to the finals too. Some of them are white and they may be fat, but the Blues Foundation in Memphis TN was pretty impressed with their loyalty to the blues. Maybe you should contact the Blues Foundation and suggest they adopt your racial quota system. I don't think it will fly.
You should attend a BBFC show here in Denver. They pack a club every time, and the composition of the audience skews younger, with more people new to the genre. Any blues band that does that is doing more to keep the blues alive than someone sitting around carping about the blues being "hijacked."
I think Nic Clark is liked in this forum because he has an unusual mastery of a certain style of blues harmonica. He is 18 years old and has been playing only 5 or 6 years. He is a bona fide harp phenom, whether you like it or not, and regardless of the color of his skin.
Bad Brad & The Fat Cats play blues originals and covers. They do not play no rock n roll. Brad and Nic have a deep understanding and reverence for traditional blues. If you can't get behind a talented young blues act working hard to expand the blues community then that is a shame.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
2936 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:26 PM
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atty1chgo, Here is a recording from Bad Brad & The Fat Cats first album. Listen closely, there might be a message for you here...
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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barbequebob
2464 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:45 PM
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@Kudzrunner -- Where you mention about what a black audience listening to about a BB King, Bobby Bland, or a Bobby Rush for today's audiences is the truth.
If you were to go back the 1970 alone, this would be your top 5 blues artists among black audiences:
BB King
Bobby Blue Bland
Little Milton
Albert King
Junior Parker
For white audiences of the same period, it would be more like this:
BB King
Muddy Waters
Paul Butterfield
Howlin' Wolf
Buddy Guy & Junior Wells
The single biggest difference is what the audiences place the most emphasis on. With white audiences, there is a far greater emphasis on instrumental virtuosity wheras the the biggest emphasis with black audiences are the vocalists and their abilities, which was and still is the truth.
Even today, with white audiences Bland, Little Milton, Bobby Rush, Johnny Taylor by comparison to black audiences, is largely unknown and if they're not an instrumental virtuoso, they don't get noticed wheras those guys I just mentioned are HUGE among black audiences because of their vocals.
BB King gets introduced to white audiences as "the world's greatest blues guitarist," wheras when he plays to a black audience, he's always introduced as "the world's greatest blues singer."
With a white audience, you can be a so-so vocalist but if you're an instrumental virtuoso, you can get yourself noticed, but that doesn't work that way with black audiences because blues, first, last, and always, for black audiences were always a vocal music more than anything else.
I'm sure some of you may want to slam me for saying that, so you can take all the pot shots you want, but every word I say is THE TRUTH.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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tmf714
2401 posts
Feb 04, 2014
2:36 PM
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"Jim Allchin and (duh!) Joe Bonamassa can play circles around Ronnie Baker Brooks. Bonamassa is famous and Allchin isn't. Brooks is...somewhere in the middle. What's the point?"
Well-I have seen Brooks live-he's got his Fathers tone and live show down-he does more for me in 12 bars than Allchin and Bonnamassa could play in a complete show-
P.S>IM with BBQ Bob on this one-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Feb 04, 2014 2:37 PM
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Frank
3787 posts
Feb 04, 2014
2:57 PM
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Agreed - Joe B. is a great show to see...but if they were across the street from each other, I'd be at Ronnies gig - LOVE his blues...Joe - would probably end his show early to see Ronnie do his thing :)
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Goldbrick
288 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:00 PM
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Not to throw gasoline on the fire- last time i saw Buddy Guy down here ( 2 years ago) he played mostly blues-rock and i was pretty disappointed. I had hoped for more stuff like the Sweet Tea record
Enjoyed Bob Margolin and Muddy Waters Blues Band and Kim Wilson's band way more than what Buddy did that night. Johnny Winter also kicked some major butt and u dont get whiter than that.
Color dont mean diddly-the good stuff is Blue-not B or W
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Feb 04, 2014 3:01 PM
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atty1chgo
828 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:18 PM
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"You should attend a BBFC show here in Denver. They pack a club every time, and the composition of the audience skews younger, with more people new to the genre. Any blues band that does that is doing more to keep the blues alive than someone sitting around carping about the blues being "hijacked."
-- Keeping the blues 'alive' is an admirable goal. I didn't know that this thread would evolve into a pissing contest as to who is doing more to keep blues alive. That's not my day job.
Rick - I watched a video. The band didn't seem to be very good from what I saw ON THAT VIDEO. Just my opinion. The studio clip that you posted sounded better than their live performance. Would I go out and buy their records? Not my first choice.
We all have our favorite styles and artists. I would probably buy a record by Jamiah On Fire and The Red Machine (above) before your proteges because I think that they are a superior sounding band. Just my opinion. You are free to disagree. It's in the First Amendment.
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Frank
3788 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:22 PM
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I seen the “True Blues” tour the other day...Loved it, closed my eyes and just "listened" the whole show - I heard some wild ass sounds and tones and phrasings..IT WAS A TRIP..If you go - don't watch, listen to BLUES :)
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Slimharp
181 posts
Feb 05, 2014
6:57 AM
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Slightly OT - Nic Clark is off the hook.
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CapnKen
46 posts
Feb 05, 2014
9:54 AM
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atty. As far as your points:
"1. It's too bad that talented black blues artists have to take a back seat to promoters who book on race.
2. It is unfortunate that even black blues heavyweights such as Buddy Guy seem to favor white artists in their promotion (at least in the two instances I pointed out);
3. That subpar white bands such as the one that I posted a video of will get promoted, at some point, because of race, ahead of a black artist."
1. The band was in the IBC, it's a competition. They were not chosen by a racist promoter.
2. Why do you dispise black's that befriend whites or vice versa. We could use a little more of that around here. Maybe Mr Satan should have told Adam to get the hell back to his side of town, huh?
3. The audience decides who will succeed and who wont. Any promoted product can fail if it sucks. Any product that gains popularity will soon recieve promotion through various means, Just like the band you promoted in the thread.
The band I'm in competed in the IBC in Okla. City. We didnt win. The band that won was a black band with a white harp player. They won because they were the best, not because they were black.It can go both ways.
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LINK
"Blues with a vigor and determination hitherto unknown to the people of this area." Mudflap Nichols
Last Edited by CapnKen on Feb 05, 2014 10:01 AM
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Tuckster
1391 posts
Feb 05, 2014
1:17 PM
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Just my own taste,but I'd rather see Bad Brad than Buddy Guy. Last time I saw Buddy,he did more talking than playing. To me,he is a blues rock guy now.
Here's a guy that got my attention at the Rum Boogie jam on Sat. He competed but didn't make the finals. Alligator noticed him and signed him up.
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Bluedawgbluesacrat
28 posts
Feb 07, 2014
8:24 PM
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I guess with the attitude of @atty1chgo......the Carolina chocolate drops which is one of few all black bluegrass folk groups are overstepping there bounds by playing white people bluegrass music.....not the case at all as its certainly not the e case that just because your white your not playing the REAL blues....if you don't want to hear then don't....the thing is the white audience and players seem to be the majority that are keeping the torch burning.....I grew up in Brownsville Tn... Home of sleepy John Estes, Hammie Nixon and yank Rachel .....I take pride in the hometown heritage and the fact that I can help Carry the torch in educating and promoting their legacy .....I'm not trying to steel or emulate but I am greatly influenced because I grew up there ..knew them heard them while I was growing up.. My white family sharecropped right beside the blacks....played music....picked cotton and were just as poor and worked just as hard......if your not from the south you wouldn't know or understand.....bottom line ...I'm white ....I play the blues as I feel it.....I'm greatly influenced by m hometown heroes black and white....one being my next door neighbor growing up who penned the multi hit song....Delta Dawn.....sleepy John was his biggest mentor ....he chose to country music ...hey big deal.....that's what music is all about......look now at people that have completely advanced the harmonica....Adam, Jason ricci, now a young nic Clark..and so many more ....happen to be white...so what.....its still music and no color should define any mans ability to express or be recognized ...young blacks today have the same opportunity to play blues ...the majority obviously choose to rap...etc... Hey that's great too.... Not my thing but.....but I'm not knocking it....that's why we all here to learn , share and express our god given talents....not limited to skin color or definition of styles... you or anyone else may try to label as authentic ......nobody owns the blues.....nobody owns expression.....everybody should be free to do what they want......if I want to be a fat 51 year old playing my harmonica and you think I'm emulating someone else then so be it....if I draw a crowd, make some money and I'm happy I couldn't care any less what anyone else might think!
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Bluedawgbluesacrat
29 posts
Feb 07, 2014
8:31 PM
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Btw ....my group little boys blue....1996 3rd place Ibc finalists
3 time semi finalist IBC 2009, 2011 &2012.......I picked the harmonica at age 30.....it's taken me places I could only dream of....I'm great full this forum no matter what your color as I feel it is a great place to learn .....I very seldom post but couldn't sit this topic out
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didjcripey
700 posts
Feb 07, 2014
9:21 PM
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Well said Bluedawg!
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Lucky Lester
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