Kingley
3430 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:21 PM
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Following on from the talk about the cost of harps and gear. I got to thinking about how you can get a good amped sound for relatively little money. So here's a little test for you.
This two clips are both from some loud, raucous jam sessions I've been too in the past. In both cases I'm using a Marine Band Deluxe harp, a mic with a Shure 99A86 CM element inside and no effects other than maybe some reverb from the PA. One of these clips is using a mid sized amp miced into the PA and one is using a Lone Wolf Harp Attack pedal direct into the PA. You can't see my rig in either clip so don't bother trying to hunt for it in the videos. Now you tell me which video is which rig?
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 03, 2014 1:03 AM
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MindTheGap
207 posts
Feb 03, 2014
12:48 AM
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I reckon A=Harp Break. I think I can hear that particular break-up on the edge of the notes. My little tube amp does a similar thing, and maybe a mid-sized push-pull one doesn't? Interested to find out.
In B at 3.50 - Flintstones, meet the Flintstones!?
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BluesJacketman
63 posts
Feb 03, 2014
12:53 AM
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is it a mid sized tube amp or solid state?
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Kingley
3432 posts
Feb 03, 2014
1:00 AM
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MindThe Gap - No Harp Break in either video. One is a Harp Attack pedal and one is a Fender tube amp. Yes the Flintstones! :)
BluesJacketman - The amp is one of the videos is a tube amp made by Fender.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 03, 2014 1:01 AM
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MindTheGap
208 posts
Feb 03, 2014
1:21 AM
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Ah yes, Harp Attack. Well I don't know then. The point is made though, both sound really good. I do like that gritty edge in A, maybe the HA doesn't do that, I've heard it's softer.
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didjcripey
690 posts
Feb 03, 2014
1:25 AM
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First one the amp
second one sounds bright to me
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Lucky Lester
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BluesJacketman
64 posts
Feb 03, 2014
2:02 AM
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1 amp
2 pedal
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puri
138 posts
Feb 03, 2014
3:11 AM
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1. Harp Attack
2. The Amp
If I'm right would you mind sharing the way you set up the pedal & the EQ on the board? I got a Harp Break but could never make it sounds remotely close to what I've heard on Ian Colloard's clip you've post a couple of years back. Thanks!
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Kingley
3434 posts
Feb 03, 2014
3:20 AM
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Puri - I'll keep this going for a while and reveal all soon. So without telling you yet which is which I'll tell you how I set the Harp Attack and the Harp Break up in the PA.
I set the Harp Attack with the volume on full, drive at 9 o'clock, tone 9 o'clock. Then PA channel is treble at 11 o'clock, middle at noon, bass at 1-2 o'clock, volume on channel to where it's needed.
I set the Harp break at volume on either 3 o'clock or full, drive at 11 o'clock, bass boost either 11 or 1 o'clock. Then PA channel same as the Harp Attack, sometimes I'll boost the treble a little to get more cut. If I'm using a chromatic then I tend to turn the drive on either pedal up a notch and add a little more volume . The Harp Break with a delay pedal into the PA using a chromatic is a monster sound!
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SuperBee
1654 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:13 AM
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I'm terrible at these games. The other day I recorded two of my amps at home, and I couldn't tell them apart at playback time. I could hear the difference when I was playing them though.
I'll say the second clip is the harp attack. I'm listening on iPhone speakers..I think the acoustics were probably a bit better in the first clip though. The whole band sounds echo-ey in the second clip...
I have amps that do sound a bit like the second clip though, so I dunno...the more I think the less I know
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SuperBee
1655 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:30 AM
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Now...Ian collard...last time I saw him he was using a blues jr I think...tweed fender anyway, and not very big but not a champ. A modern fender. He was outgunned by Pete Cornelius who was playing through a Vibro King. Ian showed me he was using a harp attack into the fender, and another LW pedal...a tone + I think.
Anyway he sounded pretty good with the exception of a couple feedback squeals. This was a little outdoor venue...when I went in to buy beer, the lady behind the bar remarked to me how he sounded like a sax...I think that's what she said...
Paul, you demonstrate a technique in that second clip I'm quite interested in but I really have no idea how to start. The thing you do around 4.05 is very sonny boy 1...I know just where I'd use it if I could do it...
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Kingley
3435 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:45 AM
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SuperBee- If it's the bit I think it is then it's a little rolling riff which is 4 bend quickly released into a 4 draw then a 5 draw, just repeated over and over. Then after that I think it goes to a blow tongue roll which is just like rolling your "r's" against the comb of the harp, then into some octave splits and then down to a rhythmic chugging thing which is just my tongue slapping on and off the comb to create a punchy rhythm. Like a kind of ta, ta, ta, ta sound. Hopefully that may help you out a little.
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MindTheGap
209 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:54 AM
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Ian Collard was instrumental in my HB purchase, although I don't think he is aware of that. So I'm pleased to hear he is still using it.
Kingley - having watched a few of your vids now, what I particularly like is how you move about between different sounds, acoustic, semi-acc, tight-cupped, within the same song. It's great variety to listen to and not of the box-o-tricks kind.
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Kingley
3436 posts
Feb 03, 2014
5:12 AM
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Thanks I'm glad you like it. I always try to mix it up as much as possible. To keep myself and the audience interested.
Hearing Ian Collard was what convinced me to get a Harp Attack and Harp Break too.
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harpwrench
766 posts
Feb 03, 2014
5:12 AM
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1-amp 2-pedal
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Barley Nectar
275 posts
Feb 03, 2014
7:47 AM
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#1 amp, #2 pedal and I made my decision before I read the other posts. Intresting...BN
BTW, nice playing...
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Feb 03, 2014 7:48 AM
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laurent2015
578 posts
Feb 03, 2014
9:16 AM
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First vid=pedal.
Yes because there's yet too many rigs to carry: the mid sized amp would have been in the way.
Not joking: I prefer from far the second sound!
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Feb 03, 2014 9:17 AM
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Kingley
3437 posts
Feb 03, 2014
10:34 AM
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Ok I'll put you all out of your misery.
The first clip is the Harp Attack straight into the PA.
The Second clip is a Blackface Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue. Miced up into the PA.
I like both sounds, but I prefer the sound of the Harp Attack. Well actually I prefer the sound of the Harp Break, but I don't have any video of that yet. For me the cost, ease of use, portability and the fact that I can get as loud as necessary without feedback issues makes the Lone Wolf gear my current choice these days.
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didjcripey
692 posts
Feb 03, 2014
10:00 PM
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Well there you go.
Guess I'll be checking out the lone wolf pedals.
Thanks for sharing.
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Lucky Lester
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MindTheGap
212 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:51 AM
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Ah ha.
When I was researching the LW pedals, I came across this. Skid Stuart, actually advertising 'Loud Bark' mics, but from about 1m30s he explains why he uses a HB. A very good reason.
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MindTheGap
213 posts
Feb 04, 2014
4:22 AM
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Not the HB I think - I had a pignose briefly and it did that kind of distortion but not of the variety in Kingley's 1st vid.
There ought to be a phrase to describe those particular qualities - a sort of purring-crunch when played quietly and a sort of ripping when played louder. Perhaps there is one. I would like to know it.
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SuperBee
1659 posts
Feb 04, 2014
4:56 AM
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kingley has a nice video of a pignose with delay. sounds a lot better than that video imho
iirc
but see my record above on picking these things
:0)
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MN
311 posts
Feb 04, 2014
5:39 AM
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Kingley wrote: "In both cases I'm using a Marine Band Deluxe harp, a mic with a Shure 99A86 CM element inside and no effects other than maybe some reverb from the PA. One of these clips is using a mid sized amp miced into the PA and one is using a Lone Wolf Harp Attack pedal direct into the PA. ... Now you tell me which video is which rig?"
===================
I won't venture a guess, because a quick listen told me all I need to know: They sound equally good. Different, perhaps. But both damn fine. NO ONE in the audience who's not a complete harp gear nerd would be able to tell the difference, period. Great playing, btw. And a fun discussion starter.
A couple Saturdays ago, I subbed for a harp player in a big band with horns. I just brought my Harp Break and a mic. The "rig" sounded great and I could hear myself just fine. And heading home with just a harp case in hand was nice.
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MindTheGap
214 posts
Feb 04, 2014
9:26 AM
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Superbee - this is the post with the pignose but sadly the video is no longer available. http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5441403.htm
Kingley, in a nutshell why do you personally prefer the HB? People are always asking about the differences between them.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2014 9:28 AM
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Kingley
3441 posts
Feb 04, 2014
9:36 AM
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Thank you for the kind words everyone.
I don't think I have that Pignose video that SuperBee spoke about anymore. If I do though I'll post it up. The Pignose is a pretty good little amp for home use. You have to keep the volume around 9 o'clock though otherwise it just tips into a really wasp like distortion.
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Barley Nectar
279 posts
Feb 04, 2014
10:13 AM
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The Princeton sounds thinner. Ya Fooled me. I can see where the HA would be a good addition to my harp case for those times when you do an impromtoo set in. In the Skip Stuart vid he used a DI box between the HB and the PA.
What is that for?...BN
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HarpNinja
3736 posts
Feb 04, 2014
10:18 AM
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I knew the answer as I'd previously seen the vids, but the LW stuff is awesome. I LOVE the HarpBreak!
The DI converts the signal to match a XLR so it is sometimes easier to feed the PA. Most newish PA's will let you take a 1/4" direct. I use a passive Behringer to do that if need be.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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Barley Nectar
280 posts
Feb 04, 2014
10:31 AM
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So, the DI converts Hi Z to Low Z. A 1/4" to XLR impedance matching transformer would do the same thing then. I have a NOS Shure unit here that I have never used. I believe it will do that. Have to take a look. Thanks Mike...BN AKA Goose
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Bruce S
31 posts
Feb 05, 2014
9:08 AM
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I use a DI box with my Harp Attack. Some PA's don't handle the output of the HA into the XLR input that well and clip. If that occurs I use the -20dB pad on the DI box, which seems to solve the problem.
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Kingley
3442 posts
Feb 05, 2014
9:26 AM
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I also use a DI box with the Harp Attack and agree with Bruce. The -20dB can be a very handy thing. Strangely enough I haven't found the need to use a DI with the Harp Break yet. Not sure why that is.
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arnenym
262 posts
Feb 06, 2014
1:27 AM
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A = pedal
B = amp
??
However, they both sound very good and it proof a pedal is a very good alternative.
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